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-   -   MERGED: Alan's still not happy...... (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/528014-merged-alans-still-not-happy.html)

ALAEA Fed Sec 19th Nov 2013 09:50


What do you see as the pros and cons if the sales act is removed or varied to allow the current scenario that exists at Virgin to be made available?

I still can't believe that Virgin can access Australian bilateral rights under their current ownership structure. What is more amazing is that no one in power seems to mind. Sell the country and we can all work to build wealth for foreigners. Slave to the buck?
Sales Act removal could mean that Australia doesn't have any carrier that we as a country control (if there was a national crisis such as WWII). The Act also protects jobs by saying that a majority of the facilities need to be at home. If the Board is majority foreign, they would be less inclined to care about where employees were based.

On the plus side, if the Act was removed or changed, Qantas could use the injection of cash to support the very successful Jetstar franchise of businesses :}. The current management team will send Qantas broke regardless.

The bilateral Agreements are different and relate to only the ownership of the International parts of each business which of course JB was smart enough to split earlier in the year.

Bob Katter raised Legislation recently to protect our air routes so only those who employed Aus pilots, Flight Atts and carried out heavy maint in Aus could access the routes. Both major parties blocked it.

Paragraph377 19th Nov 2013 10:56

Berealgetreal, probably best not to mention things like 'slap on the wrist', 'take it on the chin', 'throwing toys' and 'spraying' in a post about 'you know who' :=
Or maybe I am just imagining things :suspect:

LongLats 19th Nov 2013 11:18

Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't claim to be an expert on the QF crisis.

So without the sales act, Qantas jobs can be outsourced and the company can be up for grabs from any foreign player. But with the sales act Qantas are handicapped in the market because foreign run airlines like Virgin are getting fed from overseas?

ALAEA Fed Sec 19th Nov 2013 11:25

Qantas are handicapped because they have wasted all their money investing it in failed overseas ventures and engaging in an ongoing war against their employees.

Although they haven't told anyone this, Qantas are already planning to split their company into a Domestic and International arm and do just what Virgin have done.

Jabawocky 19th Nov 2013 11:27

If Alan and senior management stopped;

A. Screwing customers
B. Screwing pilots, engineers and other staff
C. Screwing travel agents
D. Everyone else


And started providing;
A. World class product
B. happy staff
C. Reasonable use of FF points that they so heavily promote
D. What their once loyal customers wanted

...........then none of this would be an issue.

It is not that hard.

Maybe running the place at times is hard, but really, do these three things, look after the staff, they look after the customers, who ultimately look after the shareholders.

Ohh it might help if you stop leaving the cash cow with POS airframes and giving all the goodies to the LCC?

:ok:

Ex loyal QF customer.

What The 19th Nov 2013 11:27

In order to access bilaterals the carrier must be at least 51% Australian owned. However Virgin seems to have rewritten those rules. Can't wait for the first foreign government to knock back services on the basis that the supposedly Australian carrier is in fact an arm of another country. Indonesia may be the test case given their new dislike of all things Australian.
Except cattle, agricultural land, bogans, real estate.

404 Titan 19th Nov 2013 12:13

What The

What part of Virgin Australia (International) being 51% Australian owned donít you understand. It is Virgin Australia (Domestic) that is majority owned by Etihad, Singapore Airlines and Air New Zealand. They are two separate companies with two separate listing on the ASX. Both airlines comply 100% with the foreign ownership rules.

Stalins ugly Brother 19th Nov 2013 12:43

Ironic isn't it that little Al is also in the process of splitting Qantas up into two divisions, international and Domestic. And now he has an excuse to lobby the relaxing of the QSA just in time for the split to be complete. Plus he has the gall to ask the staff to help no less! It's like the executioner getting you to sharpen the guillotine before your execution.

So, I guess you don't have to be a genius to guess what he may have in store for the future of domestic if the QSA is amended at all? Hmmm :hmm:

POT100 19th Nov 2013 13:17

Under Joyce, Qantas has been decimated Internationally and now VA is slowly chipping away at their Domestic product..JQ INT is losing money, with JQ DOM the only real money spinner!..This is very unwelcome news which should have the shareholders running for the hills!..If it had a 'go getter' type CEO with a vision of taking the airline to the heights of the greatest ,it wouldn't be in this shit crying for help!!..

Qantas is supposed to be a lean fighting machine.AJ was supposed to modernise it..But in reality what do we have??...we have a company that is bogged down in procedures and red tape!..we have layer upon layer of management that just keeps increasing...We have an OH & S culture that's gone mad with procedures, we have an authoritarian management that belongs in the 70's, and quite frankly we have a lot of managers who only exist because of who they know..Most are not qualified for the tasks their employed to do!!..The ass covering is astounding !!..

The management of Qantas only have themselves to blame..This company is coming away at the seams and the rot is starting on the inside..Nobody outside Qantas sees it..Staff see it everyday!..

For those not QF employees ask yourselves these questions;

Why do they cancel International routes claiming they're losing money - only to be picked up by competitors immediately?
Why do they buy the worlds newest and most efficient jet, and give it to a low cost outfit so they can fly bogans for $100?.
Why is there no major product developments or aircraft orders for the International operation?..when's the last time you saw an ad on TV for Qantas?..
Why can't Australians from ADL and PER travel to London on their own beloved airline?..Who the hell wants to transit through Dubai at 2am arriving LHR at 5.30 am - Buggered!!!!..Inspite of the bullshit, flights to LHR in Dec are wide open!!!..(could you get a seat via SIN last year??..)..
Why re-time flights from SIN to arrive in Aus at 4.30am instead of the usual 1440,and then cancel the flight because it's gone from full to 80 pax!!!
When you travel East West premium on VA 330's you will get a sleeper bed every time ..with QF you may get an A330-300 with skybed.you may get -200 with the plastic tray, you may get the JQ spec J seat!..They can't even get that right!..The reconfigs don't start until next year !!!!..

The crux is that Qantas is great airline with a very proud history..Unfortunately it's also a very badly run airline!!..
They should never have put a Low Cost CEO in charge of a Premium airline and Because of him, Jetstar will never be allowed to fail !!..
:{

Berealgetreal 19th Nov 2013 18:24


with JQ DOM the only real money spinner!..
Stay tuned, Tiger is warming up.

The The 19th Nov 2013 20:23


What part of Virgin Australia (International) being 51% Australian owned donít you understand. It is Virgin Australia (Domestic) that is majority owned by Etihad, Singapore Airlines and Air New Zealand. They are two separate companies with two separate listing on the ASX. Both airlines comply 100% with the foreign ownership rules.
Rubbish! VIAH is NOT listed on the ASX. It was created during the split when foreign ownership of VAH was 49%. Each existing VAH shareholder got a stake in VIAH at a share value of $0.000001. VIAH has no equity, shares cannot be traded and can only be sold under limited circumstances, shares are held in a trust.

VIAH is totally funded by VAH and VAH provides aircraft, crew etc etc to VIAH. VAH calls the shots. If VAH decide not to give a dollar to VIAH, then VIAH will not get a dollar.

VIAH is nothing more than a shonky (but brilliantly legal) way to circumvent the ANA. It is a 51% Australian owned Company of nothing. I can imagine the board meetings of the "independent" VIAH consist of nothing more than directions from VAH.

What The 19th Nov 2013 20:49

Exactly!:D

ALAEA Fed Sec 19th Nov 2013 21:41

Just looking closer at this today. Thought I would start by explaining this petition. This is what Qantas want people to sign -


FAIR GO 4 QANTAS

As Qantas staff and supporters of Qantas, we are proud of our airline and we know that in any fair fight we will come out on top. However the unfair playing field in Australian aviation is a risk to the future of Qantas and all our jobs.

It means Virgin, which will be 80% foreign owned, can use its unlimited funds to weaken Qantas in the domestic market and cripple our international business. It means foreign airlines having control of an airline which accesses Australia's valuable air treaty rights.

We must not let three foreign government backed airlines take control of Virgin and ruin the Australian aviation industry for which we have fought so hard.

Make your voice heard and sign the petition below to the Federal Government.
What is really odd about this petition is that it doesn't call on anyone to do anything. There are no demands to change the access rights to air routes. There is no call on the ACCC to intervene or anyone to change a Law to keep airlines Australian. There is nothing. It's highly unusual for any petition not to have any requests for the recipients to act upon.

I think I know why. Qantas don't really want airlines to be Australian owned. If they placed a demand on the petition that would be the last thing they wanted because they have no intention of remaining Australian themselves.

I was floating about the big house in Canberra last week talking to Politicians about Qantas. Qantas were floating around also. Every Polly I met after Qantas had all been lobbied by Qantas to allow them to sell more than 49% offshore. It's not ironic that they want you to sign a nothing petition to attack Virgin, it's all part of the plan to sell Qantas on the back of a "level playing field" argument they are already running.

This petition is a lie.

Jabawocky 19th Nov 2013 22:17

And why would offshore money be any better than local money?

I suspect that it has no appeal locally as the ROI is negative. All they will do is screw it up on others cash.

Qantas problems are not the country of origin of investment. They are simply the strategic management clock ups and unhappy staff.

I hate to say this but the culture is so destroyed that a complete collapse and a rebuild is required.

I would love to have a go at fixing it...but the sackings would be a media frenzy and now days probably illegal. The planning would take twelve months and the execution about 7 days. All those in HR, finance, marketing OHS and a few other departments would be nervous, very nervous.

lemel 19th Nov 2013 22:37

Qantas can have up to 49% foreign ownership. So why don't they? Emirates (or any other investor) has every right to buy the same share as what Etihad has in VA, but no one has.

Changing the sale act won't change the fact the QF is currently run by a have wit and his side kicks and no one wants to invest in the company.

P.s. Every time I read "Alan" I think of Alan from the Hangover and can't help but laugh at the resemblance between the two in their mental capacity.

ALAEA Fed Sec 19th Nov 2013 22:42


P.s. Every time I read "Alan" I think of Alan from the Hangover and can't help but laugh at the resemblance between the two in their mental capacity.
I take offence to your personal attack on Alan. Zach Galifianakis is a fine Actor.

Potsie Weber 19th Nov 2013 22:43

Qantas has no access to capital, it cannot fund its capital requirements through earnings, it cannot raise capital in Australia, it cannot borrow any more.

It is time to forget about the past, the mistakes, the squandering, everything.

If the Sales Act is not changed there is zero hope for Qantas. It will continue to contract at an increasing rate until it is gone.

If the Sales Act is changed and foreign capital injected, there is no doubt there will be more mistakes and more squandering. But, there is a chance that Qantas will receive a lifeline of capital and survive.

The only thing that needs to be changed in the Sales Act is the foreign ownership restrictions.


Qantas can have up to 49% foreign ownership. So why don't they? Emirates (or any other investor) has every right to buy the same share as what Etihad has in VA, but no one has.
Foreign airlines are only permitted 35% and a single shareholder 25%. If 100% of Qantas domestic and 49% of international could be foreign owned, then it is a new ball game.

Don't believe the VAH, Eithad, Air NZ, Singapore will be a happy marriage either, some interesting times ahead in that boardroom.

ALAEA Fed Sec 19th Nov 2013 22:54


If the Sales Act is changed and foreign capital injected, there is no doubt there will be more mistakes and more squandering. But, there is a chance that Qantas will receive a lifeline of capital and survive.
If the Sale Act is changed, the money will be wasted on more overseas fantasy airlines and Qantas will be further in debt.

What airline of sound mind pulls out of Frankfurt when loads are above 90% and cuts their flights from Adelaide and Perth to Europe?

The only thing that needs to change is the direction management are taking the company.

Potsie Weber 19th Nov 2013 23:09


The only thing that needs to change is the direction management are taking the company.
Nobody disputes the current managements' long line of shortcomings, but you need to look beyond that. If the entire senior management and board were replaced tomorrow, it does not change the need for external capital funding.

Qantas cannot continue to fund Qantas, it cannot continue to fund Jetstar. If Qantas shutdown Jetstar tomorrow and pulled out of all its overseas follies it would not make a difference at all, that money is gone, it's never coming back and the cupboard is almost bare!

Stop playing the blame game, it gets nowhere.

The Act needs to be changed and the best thing in return would be Joyce's head on a platter.

404 Titan 19th Nov 2013 23:20

What The & The The

The reality is that Virgin Australia is operating within the airline ownership laws of this country. The fact is that Virgin Australia (International) is a separate company owned by a majority Australian shareholding. You may not like it but tough.

What this whole charade by AJ is all about is allowing the QF sales act to be amended. Virginís ownership is a deliberate distraction by AJ, nothing more. If AJ was arguing to allow it to have majority foreign ownership in its domestic operations like VA then I would support that but he isnít. He wants it for the entire group and that isnít on.:=


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