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-   -   MERGED: Alan's still not happy...... (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/528014-merged-alans-still-not-happy.html)

Old Akro 19th Nov 2013 00:01

So, Qantas think that Virgin are being favoured by government. Remind me what % of government travel Qantas gets?

ohallen 19th Nov 2013 00:04

Not sure whether its the game or just some of the substitute players that are dirty. Regardless if you take the bucks, a CEO should just do his damn job and earn them. I dont want to hear any bleating or whingeing because I thought that is why he is paid but given some history I could well be wrong.

moa999 19th Nov 2013 00:23

Ollie Onion,

There is NO (nada zero zilch) cap on foreigners owning a domestic airline...
eg. Tiger Australia was 100% owned by Tiger Airways (Singapore), same with Ansett in its day (although separate rules for our kiwi friends).
Cathay, Singapore, etc could setup an Australian domestic subsidiary any day of the week - they would however need an Australian AOC and abide by Australian awards and industrial agreements and the like... suddenly not so attractive which is why it hasn't happened.

There is a limit on international airlines (in order to retain Aussie flag rights) of 50%.

By some complicated structure Virgin is <50% Internationally, whilst the listed company is at 80% and everything seems to get run by the same mob and everything is reported on the same books.

Then there is the special rules that apply to Qantas by virtue of the Qantas Sale Act, which contain a raft of other restrictions.


Note that the Australian domestic regulations are considerably more generous than where Jetstar has invested where there are domestic operations (eg. excluding Singapore and Hong Kong) - Pacific (Vietnam) capped at 30%, Japan capped at 33% voting (although equity higher)

moa999 19th Nov 2013 00:26

I think that is exactly what AJ is doing here - his job - trying to help his company and hurt the competitor, and/or make another argument against the qantas act.

If the $300m investment in VA was rejected, they are in a world of pain.

Stalins ugly Brother 19th Nov 2013 03:27

I think most staff at QF agree that the Qantas sales act is outdated and for sure could be amended to allow Qantas to be more competitive in todays changed market.
But to now turn to your staff and ask for a call to arms by a CEO that over the last 5 years has destroyed jobs/careers, torn families apart, closed down the business for his own agenda, bent the truth (I woke up one morning and thought Hey, I might shut down the airline! No Cookies | The Courier-Mail ), embarrassed us/himself (Calling competitors bikes and BMW's Alan Joyce: alliance with Etihad vs Emirates like "offered bike before BMW" - Flights | hotels | frequent flyer | business class - Australian Business Traveller ) marginalised mainline to the extent that we have become irrelevant, undercut his staff by offshoring, gifted all but a token service to London to a competitor (Emirates) (who I may add in a recent interview with Geoffrey Thomas stated that the 777x would be a perfect aircraft for Per-Lon for Qantas Perth to London nonstop flights - The West Australian but I guarantee we won't see them as the flying will be done by anyone else.) Killing the share price, abandoning dividends and the list goes on.

As it's been stated this is not J* vs QF, or QF vs VB, or even QF vs everyone else. This is about a CEO vs QF and it's alienated staff that have been neglected for far to long and have basically lost all hope of a future with a once great airline. To us the damage was done internally well and truly before any other competitor got the chance to do it.

So Al, as stated before I will be doing my bit and sending an email to my Poli but it will be to support Qantas, not yourself. And I support AIPA's work in also playing apart to help save Qantas, but AIPA's support should come with a guarantee of your resignation.

Toruk Macto 19th Nov 2013 03:46

Khalifa may find the comment that his airline is being compared to a bike slightly amusing . He could probable buy Emirates with the lose change lying around Abu Dhabi . Strange statement ?

1A_Please 19th Nov 2013 04:20

Alan could try to raise capital by convincing the big four Australian banks to invest $500 million each, this additional $2 billion of Australian ownership would then allow for further foreign investment of up to about $1.9 billion. If all that was to happen it would more than double the market capitalisation of Qantas. This injection of funds would allow Qantas to compete with any predatory behaviour, or to expand their operations, or to provide upgrade/superior services
I'm sure the CEOs of the banks would just be delighted to invest $500M of shareholder funds into a company that has seen its value fall by 75% in 7 years.....not!!!

QF are free to go to the market and have a rights issue today with its existing shareholders and this would both boost its capital and enable it to get more foreign investment. The problem is the share price has tanked so much that most existing shareholders wouldn't be interested and even a $500M injection would be highly dilutive given the current market capitalisation is only just over $2.5B. This dilution would just lead to an even lower share price and would require a massively discounted offering.

QF is probably right that only foreign airlines would be interested in investing at the moment and that requires the QSA to be revoked. It is hard to see the share price recovering for ages as many existing shareholders will quickly dump their holding as the price increases meaning there is a huge overhang that will take years to work through.

Fris B. Fairing 19th Nov 2013 05:41

Let's see if I've got this right. AJ is asking Qantas employees to support him and do his lobbying for him. These are the same employees who could not be trusted to operate the airline during industrial action leaving AJ with no option other than shutting down the airline, thus succeeding where Australia's enemies had failed in WWII. :yuk:

neville_nobody 19th Nov 2013 06:04

Why is AIPA supporting this? Why not just abstain and let individual members act to their own beliefs on the matter. Given what Joyce has done to the airline I don't think a union should be see to be supporting him as he sure doesn't support unions.

Angle of Attack 19th Nov 2013 06:22

I think AIPA have been lobbying the QSA point for a lot of years, its not new.

The thing that galls me is this idiot is the CEO, this is what he gets paid the big bucks for, so go and sort it out yourself, I wont be lobbying my local MP, this is what managers and all their entourage are paid for, I simply fly, and if the joint goes under so be it, I'll move on, pretty simple really. I mean who flies 747 jumbos on 7-8 hour sectors to Asia, even slave labour couldnt run a profit on those fuel guzzlers, the QF mainline has been neglected for so long its just a joke at the moment. (Oh I forgot you can shut 1 engine down during taxi, that should save 50kg or so on an 80 tonne burn to Asia) Or he could get Boston Consulting to advise him, thats what he does for everything else...:ugh:

ALAEA Fed Sec 19th Nov 2013 06:22

Right now there is more chance of Shane Warne making a test match century than Qantas getting their little Jetstar franchise up in Hong Kong.

cattletruck 19th Nov 2013 06:35

Given the modern day trend with those at the top of large corporations always being paid handsomely well regardless of their company's performance, I'm surprised that 'Al' would actually bother with thinking.

It's the old Telstra joke recycled - "They just like wearing the suit".

theheadmaster 19th Nov 2013 06:47

Why is AIPA supporting this
AIPA is not. AIPA is lobbying independently for a level playing field as it has been for some years.

Collando 19th Nov 2013 07:11

Reeking of desperation
Seems to me that apart from reeking of desperation, AJs attempt to get all QANTAS staff to sign a petition is tantamount to being the latest engagement survey. Be interesting to see how many signitures they get. Up to approximately 5000 so far.

Logohu 19th Nov 2013 08:04

QANTAS staff signing up for something AJ is behind ??! Sounds a bit like turkeys voting for Christmas.....

ALAEA Fed Sec 19th Nov 2013 09:05

Virgin are just doing what they are legally entitled to do. No amount of lobbying can change that.

What any sucker who signs this thing is really doing is supporting Alan's real reason for the petition - to get the Qantas Sale Act removed or changed.

What The 19th Nov 2013 09:25


What do you see as the pros and cons if the sales act is removed or varied to allow the current scenario that exists at Virgin to be made available?

I still can't believe that Virgin can access Australian bilateral rights under their current ownership structure. What is more amazing is that no one in power seems to mind. Sell the country and we can all work to build wealth for foreigners. Slave to the buck?

Berealgetreal 19th Nov 2013 09:30

Who does this 'Al' guy think he is? He carrys on like a toddler, having tantrums and throwing toys.

Last time something wasn't going his way he shut down the company and cost the economy who knows how many millions of dollars making our country look like a complete joke to the real world. The scary bit for JB (and any EBA negotiators) is he absolutely got away with it. Not even a slap on the wrist even with evidence it was planned.

He's great at blaming everyone for his companies misfortunes rather than taking it on the chin. Randomly opening companies all over the world (Jetstar Vietnam/Hong Kong) spraying money around like its confetti. The petition QF Employees need is for 'Al' to be put in the mail room and learn from scratch how a CEO is supposed to behave.

Now his 'line in the sand' is costing a fortune and its JB's fault. Yeah right.
Maybe Virgin should check with 'Al' before making any decisions, you know, just to make sure they don't make him look silly.

Jack Ranga 19th Nov 2013 09:49

Poor Awan :cool:

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