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-   -   MERGED: Alan's still not happy...... (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/528014-merged-alans-still-not-happy.html)

Berealgetreal 18th Nov 2013 12:21

I'm confused, Alan and the QF group faithful on one hand are full to the brim with confidence one minute yet hysterically screaming foul the next.

I recall Alan saying that Virgin weren't even a competitor not long ago. Really he shouldn't be worried should he..?

Sue Ridgepipe 18th Nov 2013 14:03

So BGA is bleating because he thinks foreign airlines are taking over in Australia, but it's okay for him to set up his Crapstar operation in other countries? :confused:

TIMA9X 18th Nov 2013 14:11

mixed messages for the punters?

I'm confused, Alan and the QF group faithful on one hand are full to the brim with confidence one minute yet hysterically screaming foul the next.

I recall Alan saying that Virgin weren't even a competitor not long ago. Really he shouldn't be worried should he..?

So BGA is bleating because he thinks foreign airlines are taking over in Australia, but it's okay for him to set up his Crapstar operation in other countries? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...s/confused.gif
I'm confused as well, its been war for three years, line in the sand stuff.... now a collective on guard is called... WOW, funny business this industry.

...... and it's a big media splash today, it's in everything aviation media & mainstream.

QANTAS boss Alan Joyce has issued an unprecedented call to action from 35,000 staff to mount a nationwide political campaign against what he claimed was the foreign takeover of Australian skies.
In a first for an Australian corporate, the Qantas boss has urged the united workforce of the airline to lobby Federal MPs against further foreign investment in its competitor Virgin which he claimed was trying to kill off the flying kangaroo.

The Daily Telegraph
has obtained a memo from Mr Joyce, sent to all staff last night, calling for urgent action by Qantas employees to pressure Government to intervene or risk an eventual foreign monopoly on domestic routes.

"After all the hard work we have put in over the past five years - and all the work by the thousands of Qantas people over 93 years of history - I am not sitting by while the future of Australia's Qantas is snatched away," Mr Joyce wrote.

"No other country on earth would passively allow such a foreign takeover to happen.

"If you feel as strongly as I do, I encourage you to make your voice heard as well. Write a letter to your local Federal representative. Make a phone call. Speak up on social media.

"Each one of you has stood up for Qantas and fair, vigorous competition. It's essential - and now urgent - that Australia's political leaders do so as well."

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce / Picture: Rob Griffith Source: Supplied

Mr Joyce has already written to Prime Minister Tony Abbott to intervene and block Virgin's $300 million foreign capital plans.Mr Joyce has received the backing of key unions in calling for a review of aviation policy following the plan by Virgin's majority owners - Air New Zealand, middle east-based Etihad and Singapore Airlines - to inject a further $300 million into the Australian airline.

They argued that the equity raising lifted Virgin's ownership by foreign Governments to 72 per cent, allowing the airline to continue running at a loss and under-cut Qantas on prices, a strategy which would ultimately cripple Qantas.

"The Australian and International Pilots Association is calling for a review of Australia's aviation policy settings, arguing the playing field has become skewed due to the rising influence of foreign government-controlled investment in the market," the AIPA said in a statement.

"AIPA is deeply concerned that Virgin Australia, by splitting its business, has been able to access a significant advantage by circumventing the intent of the Air Navigation Act, which requires that Australian airlines, other than Qantas, are limited to 49 per cent foreign ownership by international airlines."

ACTU secretary Dave Oliver also backed Mr Joyce and called on the Abbott government to ensure the viability of the national carrier.

"As I said, this airline has been a key part of society today, and employs tens of thousands of Australians, and that this Government cannot sit on the sideline and just simply leave it to the market."
Virgin, however, has hit back claiming its presence in the market had broken the monopoly situation of the past and that its new capital raising would further enhance competition in the market.

In a statement issued yesterday in response to Qantas's move, Virgin said its presence in Australia had been good the economy and that its board operated with majority independent control.
"The landscape of Australian aviation has changed forever. It's no longer a monopoly," it said.

Qantas still dominates the market carrying 48.3 million passengers a year compared to Virgin's 19.3 million.

But Mr Joyce insisted Qantas now faced an "unprecedented situation".
"For months Virgin has been losing money, driven by a strategy of setting uncompetitively low prices to win customers off Qantas across all our flying businesses," he said.

"With the benefit of unlimited sovereign funds - including the recent injection of a further $300 million - Virgin can set prices below a competitive level simply because, unlike us, they don't need to make a profit.

"The agenda of these foreign airlines is to terminally weaken Qantas and Jetstar in our domestic markets, force us to shrink our international business, and sacrifice jobs. If nothing is done, they will be perfectly placed to take a domestic monopoly position in the Australian market over the longer term.

"No nation on earth depends more on aviation than the island-continent of Australia. It is a strategic issue for this country. As the national carrier our red tail is a symbol of Australia around the world, and a beacon for Australians in need."
Well, I guess if the Q pilots support it, I hope some good comes out of this for all Aussie pilots & operational staff long term futures... my bolding

On the other hand, Qantas has brought much of this on its own head with its Emirates alliance. It's hardly surprising that the trio of Etihad, Singapore and AirNZ would seek to build relationships with a domestic Australian player. For AirNZ it's life or death. If Qantas got its way, we would be heading potentially for a domestic monopoly and a totally dominant Qantas-Emirates global combine internationally.

The cleanest and most sustainable outcome would be to allow two full mergers. Say Qantas-Emirates and Singapore-Virgin-AirNZ - perhaps with a continuing link to Etihad.
But that is not going to happen. Not so long as governments continue to insist countries have "national carriers". No Cookies | Herald Sun

My guess is that Joyce is preparing the ground for an unsavoury result in the first half and probably the full year as well. He is pulling every cost-cutting move available. But it is probably not enough.
The flying kangaroo is being financially king-hit by its smaller competitor, Virgin, that now has the backing of three large, ostensibly sovereign-owned airlines with unlimited financial muscle.
It's the equivalent of the schoolyard weakling finding three big brothers and trouncing the bully.
The trouble for investors is that both the bully and the weakling are getting very bloody noses in this fight and it's far from over

Qantas in dogfight with Virgin
It's going to be a interesting week me thinks.

SOPS 18th Nov 2013 14:36

He wants the united workforce of the airline........WTF??? As far as I can tell, he has dedicated himself to destroying the united workforce, including shutting the airline down at one stage.

He has reduced International to a shadow of it former self, ploughed untold money into Jetstar and it's off shoots, and proposed crazy ideas like Red Q.

And now he wants help.......spare me.

EK will soon operate a fleet of 100 A380s and untold 777s of all types, versus QF Internationals fleet of what....30 aircraft? (Please feel free to correct this number).

The plot was lost long ago...and as I have said before many times, I can't understand why those in charge have seemed so hell bent on destroying Qantas, but I think they might have just done it.

OEB 18th Nov 2013 15:26

Qantas Really?
Qantas should have been gone 25 years ago. 6 Federal government bale outs and still complaining. The world has moved on. They are an old rotting shell of an airline with an antiquated seniority system and governance. Exposed to the world with pants down. I'm sure Capt Crispy has all the answers in his next book. Ciao QF.

Boeing buster 18th Nov 2013 16:52

My fellow employee.
We qantas, you and I are in threat of being screwed over by foreign Goverment owned airlines. I urge you to stand up and fight for your right to be screwed over by myself, Leigh, Olivia,Paul, Nasty and Strams.
Considering how much work we have put into stripping Qantas for the benefit of Jetstar it would be unfair for us not to have the chance to finish the job.
Come on people it's not easy to close a national carrier and blame someone else.
You know you love me so show it
Tell your local member you want my member in you.
Leigh said not to say anything else so I'm done

Stalins ugly Brother 18th Nov 2013 17:09

Don't drink and post, just makes you look like a knob. :=

Very funny and more accurate than what most of us realise.


Ollie Onion 18th Nov 2013 20:43

I am no fan of Alan, but I think in this instance what he says does have a bit of merit. Australia works with very very strict foreign ownership rules. Virgin seems to be getting an endless line of credit from its foreign owners with the sole purpose of gaining DOMESTIC market share.

Who can really deny that Ethiad and Air NZ (FOREIGN CARRIERS) are basically now funding and providing commercial direction for Virgin Australia, is this allowable under Australian laws???

Somehow this thread has drifted into yet another Qantas vs. Jetstar bashing session. This has little to do however with the point that Al is making. Would we be so happy as a pilot group in Australia if a foreign carrier came and set up shop here and with an overseas workforce with all profits going offshore, infact sod it, why not just do away all together with the cap on foreign ownership, then we will see what happens to pilot's terms and conditions in Australia.

Berealgetreal 18th Nov 2013 20:49

Suddenly he's referred to as "Al".

This has got a few guys spooked. Its kind of funny.

Berealgetreal 18th Nov 2013 20:51

Suddenly he's referred to as "Al".

This has got a few guys spooked. Its kind of funny.

Now he's asking to unite with staff. Amusing to say the least.

hotnhigh 18th Nov 2013 21:12

Ollie, fair point. However I think the majority who work for Qantas, realise this call for solidarity is for one reason only, saving his own bacon from the closer inspection of his and the boards failed policies.
If Joyce was a true leader and good CEO, this issue would be a storm in a teacup.
Memo to Alan. Qantas is the main game and you have well truly positioned it in a dire spot. Well done.

Potsie Weber 18th Nov 2013 21:44

Happy to write to my local MP etc. But I'll just add in the failings of the current management. Help save QF, but in return, management has to go.

oldhasbeen 18th Nov 2013 21:53

QF ceased being the "national carrier" the moment they were given 400 million and used it to destroy AN..and became a listed company

Gingerbread 18th Nov 2013 21:55

Comedy Act by Ben Sandilands

Qantas Group CEO Alan Joyce is only a few words short of calling on his pilots to wear red ties and lead passengers in a rousing chorus of “I still call Australia Home” before push back given his mobilisation call to employees yesterday to make Virgin Australia give back its grubby unfair foreign money from predatory government owned airlines.

But is this the same Alan Joyce that replaced Qantas jets to London with billions of dollars worth of Emirates A380s and Boeing 777s when he gave away Qantas services from Perth, Brisbane, and Adelaide on the kangaroo route to the sovereign owned Dubai carrier earlier this year?

Which is worse if we want to be judgemental about this, Mr Joyce. Using a state owned Middle East carrier to reduce the need for Qantas services (and those pesky unionised Qantas workers) to London and Frankfurt, or using foreign carriers like those which have invested money in Virgin Australia to make it grow even faster?

If using foreign money to grow Australian jobs in an Australian controlled airline is bad, how much worse is using similarly foreign money to avoid Qantas employing Australians to continue its presence on the kangaroo routes? And please, stop talking about Qantas continually operating for 93 years. You grounded it for several days in 2011 for a nasty ambush pulled on tens of thousands of your customers, scattered all over the world, to browbeat a confused government into supporting a court order to end court approved industrial action which was yours for the asking anyhow?

Qantas has no claim to being the world’s oldest continuously operating carrier, because you discontinued it. You attacked in the basest of terms the people you are now imploring to mobilise, to cover your own sorry record of mismanagement which has seen the airline share price trashed and dividends vanish.

Remember. You woke up one morning late in October 2011, and said “I’ll ground the airline”. And lo, miraculously, there was a courier army, loitering with intent for the word to be made flesh, and cycled forth, delivering letters and notices that appeared out thin air, while passengers suddenly prevented from attending weddings, funerals, christenings, graduations, and the odd multi-million dollar business contract signings abroad, were all directed by shafts of divine light to hundreds of hotel rooms that had been fortuitously booked for no apparent reason days in advance.

Forgetting this tragic comedy for a moment, this is a borderless world when it comes to capital. Qantas should in fairness be allowed to access that capital under the same rules that apply to Virgin Australia.

Repealing the Qantas Sale Act is something long overdue. But on current indications giving Qantas equality of access to foreign capital alongside Virgin Australia won’t save it from the Virgin menace. That requires comprehensive changes in the management culture at Qantas, and in its board room, and we all know where that begins Mr Joyce. It begins with you.

Source:Qantas dilemma. Which Alan Joyce is talking? | Plane Talking

WorthWhat 18th Nov 2013 22:33

Whilst I would be amongst the first to agree that ‘What’s going down at Qantas is no joking matter,’ must admit I am more taken by Elizabeth Knight’s article in today’s SMH – Qantas in a dogfight no one will win.

As Elizabeth points out in her article:

Qantas is not in trouble because its source of international investors is limited by the Qantas Sale Act. This has been a legitimate beef for a number of years but partner airlines such as Emirates could have taken a shareholding but chose not to.

The aspiring Virgin model has better enticed partners wanting to tap into the Australian market.

The Qantas Sale Act is there for very good reason and necessary changes to it need to include appropriate protections for all served by it. Achieving this will not come easily. It probably can and should be done but isn’t likely whilst the current protagonists control the agenda.

waren9 18th Nov 2013 22:34

al has been pretty happy to set up shop in everyone elses back yard, but when it comes to others wanting a slice of the australian domestic scene, nooooo, we cant have that.

no sympathy from me.

that guy need to prove he can actually run something rather than just cut slash burn since he's been been in the hot seat. the times coming where we might eventually get to see i guess

Mr.Buzzy 18th Nov 2013 22:44

Go on Al. I dare you to ask for help in Melbourne or Avalon!


73to91 18th Nov 2013 23:02

He can just rename it Air Pacific, after all that name is no longer used.

virginexcess 18th Nov 2013 23:09

I would hope that AIPA have qualified their support with a letter to the board demanding Joyce's head on a plate.

Check_Thrust 18th Nov 2013 23:53

I know that this would not happen but how is this for an idea?

Alan could try to raise capital by convincing the big four Australian banks to invest $500 million each, this additional $2 billion of Australian ownership would then allow for further foreign investment of up to about $1.9 billion. If all that was to happen it would more than double the market capitalisation of Qantas. This injection of funds would allow Qantas to compete with any predatory behaviour, or to expand their operations, or to provide upgrade/superior services across their fleet (eg. Inflight entertainment for Qlink, Wifi internet on all flights, more new aircraft, etc) or perhaps do all three.

Obviously the banks and any other investors would want to see a return on their investment so they would not want to see their money simply thrown down the drain on a strategy of undercutting any competition on ticket price alone.

If this funding was to happen it would help show if the alliance of Virgin Australia backers are simply injecting funds into Virgin for predatory purposes because to continue the strategy they would then have to invest a lot more to keep up or alternatively they would walk away. If their strategy is not of predatory nature then they would maintain their current level of investment or slightly increase it and Virgin Australia would compete with offering a superior service to Qantas (I am not saying Virgin isn't trying this already).

As I said before, I know it won't happen.

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