Everyone's getting a little excited here, and not in a good way!

The imminent demise of QF International or otherwise shouldn't be entertaining to anyone. Remember there are a hell of a lot of good honest workers at QF, that like many here don't like or support the madness that is AJ and Co's " management" either and are very distressed at the current situation and saddened by what QF has become. We are all just innocent victims and collateral damage in effect from the madness that is AJ his board of buffoons.

And for all those predicting an extinct QF international, what about the Pacific, where QF isn't disadvantaged by not being a hub? LAX, DFW, Santiago what about JNB? The Arab and Asian carriers with the much cheaper cost bases don't fly these or have the traffic rights.
London and Europe I can sort of understand the logic to, sadly though.

The The, many LH people would chase heavy metal OS, rather than do the brain numbing SH stuff. SH only suits some, more often than not, for family reasons. LH is often the same, getting away from situations that don't suit, like the last three wives/husbands, chasing you for money! Don't panic yet, its still only a rumour, not verified, but one to think about. And don't forget the three amigo's, they are sitting over there on the hill, just watching, just waiting!!!!! Anything could happen.

Full circle. Dixon/Singo now seen as white knights?? You have got to be kidding!! Iconic Qantas now the plaything of a couple of publicans, and people think thats a better outcome?? Its 0730 in SYD and I slept all night but where is my emergency Vodka?? Not sure I will be able to pass my next DAMP course!

If that's the case and LHR goes then they'll need to re-deploy those aircraft, I'd say QF107 to go daily 380 and then more 400's to the desert.

Named 'Thomas' and 'Geoffrey', I believe.

It's started already our taxes are paying 'JokeStar' to stay at AV..........heard it on the radio this morning.............bloody amazing!!!:ugh:


Wmk2

Here you go Wally..

JQ Avalon deal

Well if Qantas give up LHR to Emirates, lets hope there is something in return for Qantas for giving Emirates those valuable LHR slots!
It will free up Two 380s, so it would be good to see them redeployed on a daily Perth Dubai rotation, one could never understand why Qantas did not retain a presence to Europe from Perth in the original deal!
Conversely they could use them to replace existing 747 route, and also cancel 2 of the reminding 380s on order?

Ida Down,

If you think SH is brain numbing, then what the hell do you think of 15hrs across the Pacific? A complete lobotomy if you ask me!

Agreed. That is all.

It's not a LH/SH thing, it's what gives you the most days off. They are both boring as bat ****e at times. :ok:

Transition, did both. I was a happy SH bloke, but forced into LH after dispute. They can keep it. But spent many years listening to why some preferred one to the other.( I must have a sympathetic face) And it would appear to me, that more often than not, is was family reasons or personal circumstances that made the decision. More so than money. The SH blokes complained about being bored witless, the LH blokes complained about being buggered. In other words, it was a normal conversation, you get on any flight deck, at any given time.

So how do Emirates manage a lower cost base (if that's the difference) than Qantas?

They use some similar aircraft so fuel costs must be similar.

How much do their wages costs vary?

According to the Fleet Manager, they were cancelled quite some time ago.

We must never forget:

'The mistakes of management always appear on the bottom line'.

We must never forget, that Dixon and Gregg are not and will never be the 'white knights' that QANTAS and all you current staff need.

??????? What do Alan wants??????

Valid question cheer up.
I think that is the crux of the problem. I have no data to confirm or deny but the levels of ancillary staff per airframe would be a very enlightening figure to compare across many airlines and rate against qf numbers.
As would the average salary of ancillary staff numbers across other airlines vs qf.

A man flying in a hot air balloon suddenly realizes he’s lost. He reduces height and spots a man down below. He lowers the balloon further and shouts to get directions, "Excuse me, can you tell me where I am?"

The man below says: "Yes. You're in a hot air balloon, hovering 30 feet above this field."

"You must work in Information Technology," says the balloonist.

"I do" replies the man. "How did you know?"

"Well," says the balloonist, "everything you have told me is technically correct, but It's of no use to anyone."

The man below replies, "You must work in management."

"I do," replies the balloonist, "But how'd you know?"*

"Well", says the man, "you don’t know where you are or where you’re going, but you expect me to be able to help. You’re in the same position you were before we met, but now it’s my fault."

A man took a job as a senior executive of a large company. It was his first big promotion to a job of this caliber and he was replacing a man who had been fired not long ago. On his first day, he walked into his large office with its skyline view and thick carpeting. While setting up his office, he came across three envelopes in the desk. The envelopes were numbered “One”, “Two” and “Three”. The envelope labeled “One” had written on the front “Open This Now” while the other two said “Do Not Open Yet” on them. He opened the first envelope. A letter inside had been written to him by his predecessor. On it, the former executive told the new executive how to be successful.
“When crisis strikes and you are called before the board, blame the situation on me,” the letter said. It concluded by instructing him to open the second and third envelopes only after the first crisis had been weathered.
Soon enough, in the months following his takeover, things got bad and the new executive was called to account for the situation. He recalled what was written in the first letter and when he faced the stern-faced board of directors, he lashed out at the previous manager and said that the current problems were his fault. The board nodded and agreed and the new executive returned to his office, relieved. When he got there, he opened the second envelope. On a letter from the previous executive was written, “If you are reading this, you have successfully weathered the first crisis. Congratulations. Now when the next crisis comes, blame the economic conditions for the problem.”
After a few more months, things really got bad and the board called the new executive once again for an accounting. Standing before the board, terrified, he cited the weak economic climate and stated that this was the reason for the current crisis. They nodded sagely and agreed, allowing him to return to his spacious office.
Returning to his office, shaken, the executive sat at his desk and tore open the third envelope, now eager to read its words of wisdom. The title on the envelope said “How to respond to the third crisis.”
Inside the envelope was a folded page and on the page were three words:
“Prepare Three Envelopes..."

From www.quora.com

Alan wants what's good for Alan :ok:

VH Cheer Up. For a start they don't have unions. Imagine fronting some Sheik with demands. You would end up with the same fate as the cattle, and not stunned first. Two, they are not exactly short of fuel, just drill another hole if need be. The day the Arab airlines go broke, is the day we can all retire into a hole, and stay there.

Alan Joyce.

Oh, I thought we were doing management jokes...

Can someone please alert Alan Joyce that the company most working in favour of Singapore's interests is none other than his very own company? By continually pumping hundreds of millions of dollars into Jetstar Asia, he is bringing untold number of tourists into Singapore while running a loss making outfit. By transferring flights from JQ to 3K, he is creating many jobs in Singapore (though on my last 3K flight the flight crew and cabin crew were mostly non locals). So when Alan Joyce says that Virgin Australia is working in the interests of Singapore, Abu Dhabi and New Zealand:

Qantas has Jetconnect which employs Kiwis and creates jobs there
Qantas funnels all its pax to Dubai strengthening them as an air hub
Qantas invests hundreds of millions in Jetstar Asia, creating many jobs in the Singapore economy and employing many Singaporeans.

As a Singaporean taxpayer, from my point of view, SQ is taking money out of Singapore and throwing it at Virgin Australia, unsure of whether it will get any returns. Qantas however, is taking money out of Australia and merrily investing it in Singapore without any returns but at great benefit to the local economy. I should thank QF on behalf of my country for the great service they have done to our nation, expecting absolutely nothing in return!

First cab off the rank (excuse the pun) Holden, gone. A quivering Labor is blaming...................................Abbott. Next!

And I see that Jetstar is about to fly Melbourne-Tokyo. Why is Qantas not flying the route in it own right? Will high yield passangers be interested in what Jetstar laughingly calls Buisness Class?

The whole thing is a travesty.

IF you wonder why some of our competitiors have such an advantage consider that SQ have a vastly different perspective which focus extensively on efficiency and productivity. Just a few examples:

-SQ acknowledges that they aren't a low cost country and have recently setup a heavy maintenance facility in the Philipines. High technical content tasks will still be done in SIN but less complex work makes sense even for them to offshore.

- SQ's catering processes are so good they can upload staff/duty travel meals to any aircraft in Changi with 45mins notice. Needless to say the catering for customers is spot on.

- Unions and management work together to ensure staff are working efficently. As all employees are eligible for incentive pay, it is within both parties interests to weed out dead wood. This also extends to sick leave where SQ have their own medical centre where employees must obtain their medical certificates. The great Aussie sickie doesn't pass too easily over there.

- SIAEC's culture is based around continuous improvement. Check out their website on the cultural tab. They all do the training which is referred to as productivity training.

- Remember 1980 when the SIN prime minister threatened shut the airline down and restart from scratch? Didn't know that? Alan's little stunt was actually copied from Singapore, which at the time clearly articulated that a small, resource devoid nation couldn't be held to ransom by any group and must be the most efficient operation in all industries which it wished to compete. The threat has been rolled out several times since but SQ have a sustainable business model.

These guys have been doing process and productivity improvement for a long time and we are very far behind. They work with the unions and at times make tough decisions for the betterment of the country. Yes this means less jobs but it also maintains the highest level of sustainable wages. It is a simple choice, focus extensively on the maximizing productivity to meet the customer needs or let someone else do it for us.

Didn't AIPA send out an email regarding QF vs VA staff numbers per aircraft a while back? I can't remember the exact numbers but I believe there were fewer QF pilots per aircraft than virgin but much higher numbers of overall staff (management) per aircraft in QF??

BA Engineering 20 FTE/Aircraft vs Large Aus Airline at close to 40

It's a sobering thought that so many large employers are finding the going so tough in Australia. Capital is relatively cheap (although rates are higher in Australia than almost everywhere else) but here we do have some of the most expensive workers in the world.

Top management salaries aren't the problem, they're just an irritant. It's the worker on 30% more than their counterpart in another country, times 10,000 workers in similar roles, that makes the workforce so costly.

It's a global marketplace and we need to either have an enormous point of difference that makes that 30% (or whatever) margin sustainable, or else we have to find some other, absolutely unique, business to be in.

In other words, we have to be competitive, or else operate in a market where we have no real competition.

We may rail against what we see as woeful management - we should, because it is woeful - but we need to have some options.

We can't all be fast bowlers. And there's only so much orange rock to dig up to sell to China.

Where else can we employ airline crew and customer service staff, car manufacturing and parts production workers in a competitive or monopolistic industry where Australia can take on the best in the world and win?

Ideas... Anyone? Bueller?

Look after your staff and treat them with respect, exchange pay rises for equity in the company and have a seat on the board. Be Innovative! Simple.:)

I wouldn't let management off the hook. I don't think they understand that processes are there business and I don't think they know how to improve them. They have also given in to unions claims which aren't accompanied by productivity improvements.

Now is the time for unions to swap places and push mangagement for efficiency improvements to maintain capability and our industry. We can pay higher wages but we need to do the job better and more efficiently than the lower cost countries.

SIAEC
 

BP2197
Maybe SIA are clever and efficient, but I can assure you SIAEC are as clueless as QF management.
The only thing that makes them look good is abundant cheap labour and no unions.
Oh and they are good mates with CAAS.

SOPs - totally agree! Why not make this a QF route? If no one is flying this route any more, then surely there's a premium to pay for a direct service. My mind boggles...

The SIAEC Philippines facility was set up to service Cebu Pacific. No SIA aircraft are sent there, all SIA aircraft are maintained in SIN. Based on the last SIA annual report, the 2012/2013 wages bill was S$500 mil for 6200 employees or S$80,000 per employee. Wouldn't exactly call that cheap.

The problem as I see it is that aviation like the car industry is a world industry. Most people in Australia are not directly pressured by the global realities. Take a tradie, locally employed or have their own ute and tools and never have to worry about their job being off shored. Most plumbers earn more than most pilots by a large margin and yet will probably fly with whomever is cheapest as an example. There are huge sections of our workforce who couldn't give a rats about the economic disadvantage we have by living in Australia. It's an expensive place to live in! But what happens to all those people who rely on others like ourselves when our jobs are off shored? The current debate about Holden closing down production by 2017 will be an indicator of how the Qantas debate will play out. Economic rationalism is fine if you're the winner but not the loser. The circulation of money earned at home primarily stays at home but when those earnings are transferred overseas the cash is lost within our economy. It's a downward spiral and ultimately everyone will suffer and the plumber will be glad to get a phone call and be reluctant to charge the $100 call out fee cause no one can no longer afford it whilst trying to compete on a level playing field.
Ultimately are we all prepared to sacrifice our way of life and standard of living so we can buy cheaper goods and services from overseas? That's the question we need to ask the politicians. Perhaps we could open up their jobs and those of the economic theorists to tender. It's always interesting that the tosses expounding the theory of economic forces are never at risk themselves.

Yes they also have labour laws that would be unattainable in Australia.

Employers and Employees pay much less tax

Singapore Airlines also has a very favorable depreciation scheduling over half of what it is in Australia

Their airport is run properly.

The fact they pay for the entire cost of their pilots training and still pay them alot of money relative to the local economy goes to show how much ahead of the game they are.

Singaporeans also get government assisted housing which means you can pay lower salaries as home ownership is achievable.....unlike Australia!

Pointing at Singapore is NOT the answer to QF's problem. The playing field in aviation is so heavily skewed against Australia it is bordering on ridiculous.

Well maybe you should push for reform of the AMA, that might fix that problem.

neville_nobody: If labour law, a favourable tax regime and having a well run airport is what's needed then Jetstar Asia should be making oodles of money. They haven't ever made a real profit and the initial investment in the company will probably never ever be paid back.

Jetstar and Sinagpore are two totally different business models and really cannot be compared.

Does SIN have unions? That is one place I could not imagine it, that and the sandpit.

SIA does have a union of sorts but to explain it in one word.....Token