Interesting Tartare.
I have never been in management ranks so my thoughts/ opinions/ knowledge come straight from the line. I would love to know if the folk you were working with ( in your opinion) realised that their attitude towards flight safety directly impacted the attitude towards flight safety on the flight decks of their airline?
Do you think they knew that their airlines safety culture was never static and was influenced by the messages, both direct and indirect, that came down from on high?
I'd love to know.
Framer

That is correct, my mistake. On the flight in question though the crew were advised by Scott Base that the Wright and Taylor dry valleys area's were clear and would make a better prospect for sightseeing than Ross Island.

Apologise for the memory lapse.

Hello Framer, thanks for your reply.
I must admit that it concerns me deeply to hear you say that executive level messaging affects flight safety on the line.
When I went out to the base at Auckland airport in my management white shirt and tie, I used to breath a sigh of relief (inhale some Jet A1 fumes!) and think to myself "these guys are too sensible to let any white collar management bollocks affect flight safety."
That was certainly the experience I had - corporate stuff was met with a wry smile from the grey heads up on the flight deck.
My sense was that airline pilots were a little like doctors in that respect.
Management can say all they like, but when you're up in the air with a couple of hundred souls down the back, you are in charge, and your `oath to safety' so to speak overides anything else.
Does that answer your question?

Thanks for the honest response.
It answers my question. Pretty scary really.

Well said, on all counts.

Tartare,
A poster called SafetyPee posted a link to a study that was completed in 2001 in another thread. I was reading the Executive Summary of the report and one sentence reminded me of what you posted here so I'll copy it in.
Basically, even though flight crew have high standards etc, what management does and says can over ride that in a negative way. The professional culture can be ( and normally is ) affected by the attitudes and beliefs of the current management. That makes sense because otherwise we wouldn't need any talk of leadership....management would be relegated to managing.
Have a good day,
Framer

Not Nightowl Had this PIC been tasked to land that would have been an entirely different matter, the balance of blame might have shifted to AirNZ - "necessary training". But he had received (1) sufficient training for overflight and (2) explicit instructions about descent below MSA, which he disobeyed without sufficient knowledge, cause or care.

Had the AINS not been reprogrammed he might have got away with it. That wouldn't have made him right, it would have made him lucky.

Tartare wrote Very true. It is easy to have learned opinions about how things should be done if you don't also have the responsibilty for the outcome.
I always listened to their views, but got a bit irritated when a paramedical told me how to do something in an insistent way, when they did not carry the can for it when or if it went wrong for the patient.
That is where the responsibility of command in flying is very similar.

I have followed the Mt Erebus accident closely over the years, and read the Mahon and Vette books, and the Royal Commision and original accident reports. Gordon Vette and Justice Mahon were courageous and decent men.
All I can say is "there but by the grace of God go I" to anyone who chucks armchair opinions about the crew.

Interestingly found a signed copy of 'Impact Erebus' in an oppie y'day.

GV had signed it to one 'Mervyn' who seems to have been a pro aviator in some capacity, as there were quite a few related books in a batch, including the L'Estrange highly slanted one. GV's book is full of insights that no other person involved in the enquiry could have come up with. The sad thing about GV today is the terrible things that a stroke can do to your senses. Remember your aspirin prooners one and all.

Good to know Gordon Vette is still with us, although saddened to hear of his illness.
Respect.
John

Give it a rest Ornis. There was plenty of "blame" to be laid at many a door, the long running past thread holds all the arguments without another impugning an individual who is no longer here to defend himself. And he had not received all the CAA mandated training.

Fantome, that was a great score, well done. A fine piece of history you have collected, and to think it was dumped in a second hand store.

Gordon Vette was a brilliant mind, intelligent man who could certainly define sh#t from clay. He has been ill for some years now, and it is an absolute crying shame that his mind be cut short by one of the ravages of this world we live in.

Give it a rest, ornis
 

Erebus Disaster|Mt Erebus Plane Crash OFFICAL Facts Website|1979 Air NZ|NZALPA Erebus disaster - the story and the facts. About the Mt Erebus plane crash Jim Collins Memorial Award The Flight Path Controversy Give it a rest, NZALPA.

Exactly, there will always be two trains of thought as to the cause of this "accident", and many of these people who hold contrary views to the findings of Justice Mahon are far from "armchair opinions".

NZALPA did what it should and stuck behind the deceased crew. Dead men can't talk, they can't defend themselves, they can't speak about the facts so somebody had to keep the dead crews dignity alive.
Judging from some of the posts on here it would seem that some of the old CAA, Muldoon supporters and ANZ hierarchy are still blinded by arrogance, egos and pride.

I now await Ornis to reignite his Perpignan obsession, to try and tie that accident in with Erebus and then demand answers from me as to why I 'didn't resign over Perpignan'?

That statement may well be correct, but you have attributed it to the wrong people.

oim tinkin' the only man missing from the fool circularity
of dis here blather is de Rev'rend Ian Paisley.

what Para said . . . .. accord the deceased some respect
some modicum of dignity

Got the utmost respect for Ron Chippindale and his report.

There was an old PPRuNer called Paragraph
Who blamed Air New Zealand office staff
As much as he bleated
His propaganda was greeted
With two fingers, harsh words and a laugh.

A typical infantile, and not completely unexpected reply, from one who wishes to denigrate Captain Collins, and those who have the temerity to stand in his corner.

Mods, I think it's time to get the key out, no good can come from the likes of the previous post.