ANZ Erebus crash 28 November 1979 - 34 years later.
 

On the 28 November 1979, Air New Zealand Flight TE901crashed into Mt Erebus killing 237 passengers and 20 crew. 34 years has passed, but not forgotten.

I post this thread not on behalf of anybody else, just me. So if it offends, appears biased or doesn’t interest you then that is fine, you are welcome to go elsewhere.

My thoughts are with the families and friends of those killed, as well as with those indelibly scarred by what they experienced in the recovery work. My thoughts are also with those who were wronged, ostracized or disadvantaged by their honesty and integrity during the investigation and subsequent enquiry. I will hold back from making statement about the chief investigator, ANZ management, the then Prime Minister and the CAA. They don’t deserve any further mention.

My thoughts in particular are with;

The family of Captain Thomas James Collins (Jim)
The family of First Officer Gregory Mark Cassin (Greg)
The family of Flight Engineer Gordon Barrett Brooks
The family of Flight Engineer Nicholas John Maloney (Nick)
The families and friends of all crew and passengers whose lives were lost

My utmost respect is paid to;

Justice Peter Mahon (recipient of ‘Jim Collins Memorial Award’ by New Zealand Airline Pilots Association)
Captain Gordon Vette ONZM
Inspector Greg Gilpin


R.I.P

It doesn't offend me, but it does interest me and statements like leave no doubt as to your bias. I know I'm welcome to go elsewhere but as the wife is busy cooking tea and nightly news is boring me I will stay and join you in posting personal opinions for the indescriminate masses to read and make comment on.
I think the family of the chief investigator is wronged by folk who hold your opinion. I also think that assassinating his character a year or so after his death was low and said more about Paul Holmes than it did about anything else. I wouldn't have minded if it was factual, but it was 99% emotional rant.
As Chief Investigator he had clear guidelines as to what his duties were and he fulfilled them in my opinion. The Industry is different now, a modern day Investigator in the same position would have much more scope to delve into causal factors other than the primary. Personally I think he was hard done by.
Here comes dinner, hopefully some other random Internet surfer will also comment so we can continue the conversation you started and go over it again and again and again, and then meet back here next year and continue blowing on the coals.
Cheers,
Framer
Edited to say I think your post would have been nice if you had resisted having a dig.

Framer, your own personally biased retort, in the open spirit of the thread, is more than welcome. That is what life is about, we all have our own personal opinion, beliefs, and biases. Go for it.
As for the subject coming up year after year, 257 lives were lost. Should we forget and move on, really? And if so, why then should we commemorate ANZAC day, or pause on 9/11 every year? It's just lives, all in the past, can't turn back the clock, we know all the reasons why these things occurred. Sorry, I can't agree with you on that point mate.

P.S You mentioned Mrs Framer cooking dinner, that got me hungry. What did you have? (No hidden agenda in my question, just curious).

Oh goodness, whats done is done :ugh:
Are we from a flight safety perspective going to learn anymore?
By all means remember the dead, but please please please let us not dwell or delve in the past....
I'm surprised the 89 strike hasn't been mentioned yet....or Air NZ destroying AN:ugh::hmm:

A truly sad event. RIP.

Count yourselves lucky the politically correct & morally gutless ATSB didn't investigate.

Interesting this one.

One of the basics of airmanship is situational awareness and the PIC is ultimately responsible for this in a given airspace.

However to recognise this and make an informed decision the PIC needs to have the necessary training in the first place.

So where does "whiteout" fit into this tragic accident?.

As an aside Ansett destroyed itself with it's strong unionism. It didn't need Air NZ's help!!.

Good stuff.
I see where you're coming from. I guess to me it feels like whenever we discuss it we go around and around in circles and a lot of mis- information ends up being posted by peolpe who have read one book and then formed an opinion.( I'm not suggesting you fall into that category and do share most of the sentiment in your original post.).
Have fun, Framer
Ps, Mexican for tea tonight.

I worked with the Chief Investigator and can assure all who read this that he was a man of complete integrity.

747-419, whiteout did indeed play a part in this. There is to much research on the subject, including what was undertaken during and after the accident investigation, to document here, but yes whiteout played a part.

haughtney1, raising 89 and AN's collapse is not the topic of discussion here. 257 dead souls being remembered is.

Framer, very understanding post. Cheers. And as for Mexican, nice one. I am partial to a good feed of Mexican washed down by some Corona's :ok:

4Greens, 'assurance' is a large statement, and myself along with other knowledgeable acquaintances who are either no longer with us or who are not inclined to speak or write publicly don't concur. However this is a democracy, free speech and all that stuff, so you are welcome to your opinion.

Paragraph,
I don't doubt your sincerity when it comes to the subject at hand, moreover I am old enough to remember the devastating effect on families after the loss of 3 people my father knew well through his business dealings.
It is also a mark of respect that we take a moment to pause and reflect on those who through no fault of their own met an untimely end.
The rest of it I'm afraid has been regurgitated in various guises over the years on PPrune, so in that sense your statement in effect saying.."if you don't like my post bugger off" merely reinforces dogma attached to this tragic episode in NZ aviation.
If you are unable or unwilling to make that connection or are not savvy enough to garner from the search function, then I feel sorry for you.
My comments relating to AN and 1989 are merely a reflection of other similarly polarizing threads that inevitably descend into name calling and recrimination.
If you choose to use PPrune as your own personal device to express an opinion thats fine, but don't expect the rest of us to view your opinions/views/statements in a way that suits your agenda.

haughtney1,

Well said...

haughtney1 - I was 8 at the time and distinctly remember one of our teachers in tears because an aunt and uncle had been on the flight.

My wife and I and our young sons were nearly on that flight, but someone was watching over us. I'll never forget the tragic event; it'll stay with me for ever

This tragic event occurred a long time ago. I'm sure lessons have been learnt.

Surely the blame game should come to an end and we just remember those who died and the families and friends left behind who mourn?

Paragraph 377,


And then you name the crew. You do not mention F/O Lucas who was apparently down the back at the critical time of the descent. Is it because reasons for him being down the back have been postulated in various threads regarding this "accident" that have influenced your post?

Prospector, firstly I worded my post exactly the way I wanted to word it. I couldn't care less what you think. But considering you are potentially clouded by emotion and feel there may be something sinister or mischievous in my not mentioning First Officer Graham Neville Lucas, I will explain my reason for not including his name - He was indeed not on the flight deck at the point of impact. As a result of that, his good name was not besmirched and tarnished, unlike the others who sat at the pointy end at the time of impact. Simple explanation mate.
Secondly, I said;That comment is inclusive of First Officer Lucas, the 15 cabin crew and the passengers. You may notice I also didn't mention the name of Peter Mulgrew who was also up front. He didn't get blamed for the accident because he was not part of the crew, hence my not personally mentioning his name.

Lastly, I really don't care what has been posted on other threads over the years. Any prior comments, hypothesise, postulations etc etc that others have made has no bearing or connection whatsoever to what I think or write. Full stop.

Love ya work, Paragraph. Create an arguably provocative thread and then rip into all and sundry who disagrees with you. Is that a Kiwi thing? :confused:

paragraph 377,

Indeed it has no bearing on what you write and think in a public forum, but in this same public forum those of us who disagree with your thoughts are also free to air them. There is no dispute about remembering those who lost their lives in this "accident", but there will always be dispute about the cause of the accident. Your post was certainly not from a neutral corner and therefor you must expect different points of view to be expressed.

Bloggs, I'm not ripping in to anybody. All I have done is respond to assertions made towards my post. I have kept my responses measured and have never set out to provoke anyone. I felt my reply to prospector was quite reasonable under the circumstances.
I have no problem with others opinions, but if they make an untrue statement towards me I will simply correct it.
Your comment about a 'Kiwi thing' is actually offensive in itself.

Prospector, you are more than welcome, and others to reply, it doesn't bother me. In your case you made a remark about my not mentioning F/O Lucas, and I cleared up the reason for you. That doesn't mean I am in anyway saying people can't make posts. You made a comment and I responded with a clarification.
Are some of you really that touchy?

Do not know whether it is a kiwi thing, it would certainly appear to be a new world touchy feely thing. The Captain is not the captain when the **** hits the fan, he is only the captain on payday.

Even Wikipedia spells it out
\
And you, paragraph 377, still try to put the blame on a computer operator, an accredited Aircraft Accident Inspector, perhaps because you read that emotional claptrap the Paul Holmes wrote called "The daughters of Erebus"??

Emotional claptrap is accurate. At the time I was surprised that he wasn't called to task on it. The NZ media seemed to be comfortable with it. I thought it was particularly low.

Prospector, Wikipedia? Hmmm. As for Holmes, interesting book, but not a patch on Justice Mahons work and his subsequent book. But hey, each to his own belief. But it is interesting how the people on here criticising me as being biased have a completely biased opinion themselves?
Personally I don't need books or Wikepedia to guide my decisions or thoughts.
My knowledge of the accident lays much deeper than from online reading.

Oh dear.....it is as I feared....let combat commence :ugh::ugh::ugh:

You started it bro with your bull**** & childish 89 & Ansett dig. you could have ignored it & moved on but in your usual style you throw the hand grenade in & smirk like a 15 year old girl. Well done :ok:

Justice Mahon apparently laid no importance on the three requirements that were very clearly laid down by the Company and CAA before a descent could be commenced.
1. Had to be identified on Radar
2. Had to be locked on to the DME
3. Had to be in VHF contact.
None of these requirements were met. If just one of them had been met there would have been no accident.

Prospector - Correct

Just for the record, I'm not criticising you at all, just floating my own opinion which differs from yours.
No but you do need information. That info can be reliable and factual or otherwise, there can be a lot of it or insufficient amounts, it can be emotionally driven or technical and emotionally removed. Each of us has chosen what info to hang our opinions on, personally I try and avoid fixating on info that suits my position. As a pilot it would suit my position to lay the blame at the feet of the company, completely, but I can't do it, there were contributing factors both on the ground and on the flight deck.That is the unpalatable reality in my mind.
The above paragraph is not a dig at you, the crew,or anyone else Para, it's what I observe to be true. I appreciate that others will have different opinions. I have no idea what you base your opinion of RC on but it must be different information than what I use.
I hope you're all having a good day, Framer.

It is a shame that Ron is still attacked, even after his untimely death at the hands of an inattentive car driver.

He was a man of intelligence and integrity who did not suffer fools.

On the first day of my Accident Investigators Course, he kind of chewed me a new one for not being as interested in his course as he thought I should be :E

In the end, it was a very interesting course and all through it he emphasised the fact that Investigators need an open mind all the way until the draft report becomes the final report and even after that if new evidence comes to light.

He also mentioned numerous investigations where he would try to physically bar Police from entering an accident site for the purpose of a "possible criminal investigation". He was extremely idealistic and did not ever believe that a criminal case should come from an Air Accident as that would hinder the collection of facts and statments in the future.

The one last thing I remember from his course all those years ago was a statment he made "your job is not to apportion blame to any one individual or cause. Your job is to find, to the best of your ability and the evidence at hand, what the true causes of the accident were, so that it may never happen again". Not quite word for word, but it was a very powerful statment and is still burned in my brain.

That really was what he was about. Preventing the same accident from happening over and over again.

Was he a very confident/borderline arrogant man? You bet, but he knew his :mad: too. He aso had to be confident in the face of intense media scrutiny for most of his working life.

I wonder if he were a bit more friendly and a bit more approachable, he would be seen in an entirely different light.

Whether you like it or not, that report is still the only factual legal document produced.

Did you know that up until the time of his death, and maybe even to this day, he would get hate mail on the anniversary of the accident. Seriously people, don't blame the messenger, he was just doing his job, to the best of his ability, with what he had to go on.

I know other Inspectors in other high profile investigation who are also victimised for the perceived targeting of certain people/groups in their investigations.

It really is a very sad state of affairs.

A very sad day in the history of New Zealand aviation.

Noooby, for me your summation gets it in one...

Jack..who moi? agent provocateur? say it ain't so....but please refer your good self to my clarification..
As for 15 year old girls...thats just illegal...just

TE901 CFIT
 

Having operated into and out of McMurdo during the summer of 1978 I can claim to have some first hand knowledge of the perils of operating in the area. As I recall we kept HF skeds with McMurdo getting an update on the Viz and Horizon definition conditions prevailing. If the trend was toward a White-out we returned to Christchurch before reaching PNR.

Whilst I do not claim to recall in detail the sequence of events which led to the loss of TE901 I believe, as been stated previously by others, that the aircraft was allowed to descend below MSA without meeting the criteria laid down. As sad as it is it seems to me that the accident was a clear case of CFIT which was aviodable. We can never bring back those lost but we can, and should, all learn from this tragic event.

It does none of us any credit to continue to denigrate the reputation of any involved in either the accident or the investigation of it. It is 34 long years ago, let it rest.

Never known Ron to be a little off - maybe because we were the same vintage. Good man and glad he is now getting support on this forum.

In remembrance today, November 28 1979.
R.I.P

Not this hoary old chestnut again? Been done to death several times; get over it and get on with life.

Mods; time for the lock again!

Dark Knight,
I take issue with your casually dismissive attitude regarding those who would want to pay their respects, or otherwise remember the casualties resultant from this chapter of history.

Although not directly affected, I know several people who were. It's probably fair to say that most of them are "over it"; it's also fair to say that nobody has forgotten it. Nor should they.

Man doesn't have a great track record of learning from the past. We tend to keep repeating it, in different, re-invented versions.

So who are you to say that anybody should not remember this? If you don't want to read the thread, don't read it. And please don't comment on it again.

I understand that the cvr that was transcribed was edited.
It commenced 30 min prior to the prang,
with lucas speaking loudly that he did not agree, and jim could stick his ideas up his ar##e, followed by the slam of the flight deck door.
The rest was publically aired.

What an absolute crock of ****e. You understand wrong. Lucas was down the back, having a rest most likely, judging from the timeline. But of course nobody is alive today to deny or confirm your ridiculous assertion. Furthermore, had what you say been correct, then '4 greens' favourite investigator, Mr Chippendale, would have had the smoking gun he so desperately wished for. He could have nailed Jim and Co to the wall. At no time has any supposed CVR recording as you mention made the light of day, nor did Ron produce any such 'smoking gun'. 34 years later and you post a sledge like that, shame on you.

Congratulations Dark Knight. You are number 35 on my ignore list.
Professional Pilots only please.

Haughtney

NZ was nailed to the wall by SQ with the collapse of AN.

They wanted AN, the Australian domestic feeder network and more importantly their access to the trans Pacific ex Australia money pit that AN had rights and access to.

SQ with their 2 members on the NZ board at the time had decided to rescue Ansett and ride in on a white charger and save the day. To just buy Ansett out they realised they would have to cauterise the top 3 layers of management which would have cost a fortune in redundancies and contractual payouts.

Hence the most logical way to get the job done was collapse the compny and then come in and rescue it therefore taking the spoils.

With their plants on the NZ board they knew that NZ at that time couldn't hope to manage a bowel movement much less the Ansett beast which by that time was chasing its tail after having been cash raped by Abels and Murdoch years earlier who sold off all the owned aeroplanes and leased a new fleet, the profits being stripped out of the operation and lost into the TNT/News empires.

The SQ program was right on track but a bunch of camel shaggers flew aeroplanes into structures 24 hours prior to the fold of Ansett. The industry went into meltdown right there and then and the Lion got cold paws.

No exposure = no loss of face. That is precisely why the blind was there in the first place. SQ melted into the delightful oblivion of their blind and I would not be amazed if they actually drove the Linfox push to allegedly resurrect the Airline only to pull out after the resources of the staff policy ran out of funds.

I was at the time running my own Travel Agency and still am but was in close contact with mates in upper positions with many airlines. These are the inside details I have gleaned,

The NZ tragedy was something that hangs heavy over me to this day. I was working at TAA Burnie at the time and we had the wife of the Port of Burnie Authority on the aeroplane. That has sat cold on my heart ever since.

I feel it is time to let this tragic end to a wonderful experience lie at rest. God bless the good crew and let us hope their loss has taught lesson to all.

Best regards

EWL

I had forgotten that TE901 had flown in to Mt Erebus on the 28th of November.
For me as a keen young pilot just getting in to aviation, it was a massive thump in the chest to realise that people I looked up to for their achievements in flying had been found to be mortal. (Initially the crew, then as the events unfolded another hit from the Airline and the investigation findings)
This accident changed the way the world thinks about aviation safety and for that reason it is remembered and argued about now 34 years later,
For me it changed my life as I became deeply interested in aviation safety and am today an investigator.
But for a few minutes I will remember the people who are not here any more.
RIP