Qantas Engineering redundances - Advice required!!!
 

Just after some advice as to what to do! As you are aware QF is making redundant 204 engineers and I could be one of those to go. (I do not believe they will get the VR they are after)
Having read the current EBA’s both for the LAME’S and AME’sI am struggling to find out how they will select the people for CR. It is my opinion that A380/H96 people will be spared and they will target the “legacy” people. Will current up-skillers be classed as fully time served AME? Will it be a performance related selection??
Is it worth “hanging around” waiting for the tap on the shoulder or jump if you have a chance? I would just like to know my odds of having a job in the New Year. Also what will happen after the redundancies have finished? Will a new engineering department grow from the ashes! or just less people and even worse career prospects.
Like I stated at the start, just after some advice as what to do. It is the unknown which is the worst bit.
Pterois Volitans

I suggest you talk to your union as they have been discussing this with Qantas. Also, there should be plenty of access to your management team to ask questions.

Having spoken to the unions and the managment, I am still in the position as to whether the axe will fall in my direction! Like most people I think, I want to know if my job is safe. I guess I will have to wait to see what the numbers are for VR at the end of the month.

PV

Unless you have something to go to make them Force you out why help them by taking VR :ok:

PV,
you've raised more questions than answers.

Are you single or married; chilidren or none?
How old are you?
Are you licensed or not?

The answers to these questions should at least help you form a plan of what you want to do.

If you are tapped (or decide to go) do you have an alternative? This will depend on your answers to the above questions. Note: there are some who want to go and others who have the attitdude, "Screw 'em. If they want to sack me they can, but I won't make it easy for them'. Do you fall into either category?

Have they offered, and have you thought about redeployment? That used to be an option with a 90 day 'trial'. If it is an option this time around, that may be worth looking at.

Finally it is your decision (unless you are tapped). You can talk to as many friends as you like, but their advice will depend on their own plans - not yours. Likewise union advice will be practical but still your ultimate decision. Forget management or HR unless you are asking your payout figure. They have quotas and want 204 people to go and don't care who - just so long as 204 go.

Edit:
How many years service do you have? This will determine your payout and therefore how long you can afford to be without a source of income.

Fight it out
 

Best of fighting to the bitter end. Better to die on your feet than on your knees. I am about to receive my marching orders as well.
Whatever the outcome is for anybody within the group, best of luck and in god's speed.

PH

Totally agree.

And at the end of the day we are probably all dead men walking. (They just wont let us in on their little surprises).

Redundancies
 

I'll be using the old saying "Don't volunteer for anything" as my guide.Though I sometimes wish they would hurry up instead of prolonging the agony. There's another thing that gets me, its the way some of the younger guys, especially L\H that have got there 330 licence, are strutting around like there untouchable and its buisness as usual.Quite sad really.

They havent mentioned who they are targeting, but i would be worried if you dont hold an A380, A330 or a 737 licence.
I have sent an application to Emirates, and i have a job lined up at the local car mechanic (i know 2 other LAME's who have lined up work as a car mechanic). But thats only if i do lose my job.

You can be sure that young guys are thinking the same things that you are. The difference is that they may not have the same kind of commitments as the older guys have that a payout won't fix, so things sit a bit easier.
Those that are left won't necessarily be young or brown nosers, and there is a need for most classifications, just fewer numbers.
It's true that fairness on the selection of those who go CR will not exist, but there are always surprises and the unexpected, so not all is a given.
I know this because I've been through two such events and it's never pleasant to see your friends disappear from the industry, but after the second, I found I could do better outside the industry.
In time though, (2-3 years) on both occasions, recruiting happens again because the management ALWAYS let go more than they should. That's no real comfort I know but it s a reality.
I wish all you guys (and girls) well during this and good luck.
:ok::ok::ok:

When I got made redundant on the shutting of Heavy Maintenance in 2006
I took the redundancy and what unpreserved super and suck it straight on the mortgage, it helped with the financial Burden well for me anyway.
I found that once I got over the panics of o m g what am I going to do
there was work out there, well back then anyway you just need to look,
Spent 2 years in the real world and it wasn't bad,But Im glad I"m back !!
Guy/Girls My thoughts are with you and wishing you all the best
:D
Cheers
Opal

Just One other thing if Qantas are putting work shops for life after qantas
and hope they do,I found it very painful to go there,but found it very helpful well for me.

Work out what your payout would/will be. Do you have any debt/mortgage etc. Are you ok with moving state/country? What licenses do you have?

The job market for LAMEs/AMEs is very very tough. If you only have a 767/747/744 license you have little to no chance of getting a LAME job anywhere in the world. I know people with full B1 licenses with B767, B744 & B737-NG who struggle to get a jobs. I know some gents who moved off the floor and went to Virgin due to lack of LAME jobs.

I would only "jump ship" if you are an AME and you get a job at jetstar or virgin. Other than that depending how old you are I would maybe think of changing careers. The biggest thing everyone at QF are going to have to realise is you are not going to find a job that pays what you're on unless you go to the mines etc and thats not as easy as Gillard makes out. good luck.

This may be true about the A380/H96, but then again, maybe not. They employed a lot of A380 people on the assumption that they were getting more A380's than they already have or are getting.

Quote:

---

Will current up-skillers be classed as fully time served AME? Will it be a performance related selection??

---

We are all in the same boat. I am treating myself as though I could be in this lot of redundancies, or the next one behind it. I am waiting for the tap. Like a lot of guys, I have a mortgage, kids and won't choose to go, but if told to go, then I have no choice but to go. I am of the assumption that if given CR, you don't have to wait as long for unemployment benefits than if you take VR. I could be wrong on this one. Who knows how they will choose those to go? I'm sure there are private black lists or hit lists, and these could be used.

Quote:

---

Like I stated at the start, just after some advice as what to do. It is the unknown which is the worst bit.

---

The ultimate decision is yours. You have to take into account your financial situation, whether you have a job lined up, if you're tied to a family or mortgage, etc etc.

Hope this helps.

FYI- there is no legal difference between CR or VR. It is simply that your position is made redundant and if you choose to go your "Certificate of service" from QF will simply say "redundant" and not if it was compulsory or voluntarily.

I think more may jump now than what most guys think. I know of a few that are very close to considering it or have already done so. It certainly wont be the full 200 but maybe close to the 40-50 mark. have heard the number overall is around 25-30 already.

These original questions have no exact answers yet and would be subjective. I would generally think it best to wait until the close is called for volunteers. It is after then that transfers fall and then consideration of how CR would be selected.


No they didn't. Some Engineers on the floor tore into the AWU Rep because they want people selected to go to come from a skills matrix made up by management. A matrix where you get more points for less absences or if you play golf with your boss. The Reps themselves got on fine.

Regardless of your outcome from this round, it would be prudent for all to look at increasing their level of education and transferable skills. Now is a great time to enroll in course for 2013. It might offer you more choices if the worst happens or maybe an opportunity for a bit of cash on the side you stay.

Fully agree. I would be making the absolute most out of those careers centres they are allowing you to attend during work time.

If you know your are on the list, why volunteer to go? There would be no appeal against that.

Thanks for all the advice and support, however I will not jump unless pushed. Retraining is an option, but relocation is not on the cards.
But the answer I am looking for is how will they select the people to go for CR.
I just want to try and work out whether I will be close or not? they seems to be no set process in current EBA's.

To be on the list;

1/ No Airbus types
2/ Div 1 or 2 super
3/ Over 45
4/ B2
and in that order. The more you look like the above the more likely you are on the list. Sorry guys.. :sad:

Thats for the LAME's, what about the AME's?

AME
1/ Div 1 or 2 super
2/ Over 35
3/ Mech or Avion

Given neither unions or management have discussed the criteria, any of the foregoing is guesswork at best.
If they start tapping blokes based on their age, the excrement will fly..

I have been made redundant 4 times (yep 4), they will never admit age comes into consideration, but it does.:(

Sometimes there is an advantage in being first out the door, you beat the rush and may have an opportunity to get an alternate position ahead of everyone else competing for it.

Not always the case but given the scale of redundancies and the area in question it MAY be something wroth considering.

But absolutely definitely consult your Union. There are times Unions overstep their mark, but this isn't one of them. Get your money's worth, they are (or should be given it is their defined role) experts on your side of the field.

Thnx Romulus.

ALAEA are meeting with management 10.00 Monday. All Sydney Execs to attend. Mark Gant, Wayne Vasta, Bobby McGee and Brad Cox. Reps Chris Burleigh, Ross Richardson and Andrew Joppling. The above should be able to answer any questions.

I will be there too with Paul Cousins our President.

Nah
 

They cannot use age or super division, look at your award.. Not only that but it's discrimination and bloody obvious if a couple hundred over 50 year olds get sacked .. Yep airbus guys are safe , sparkies safe as well .

Technically and legally correct. Nothing stopping them though taking a fair percentage of the >45 - 50 or Super 1 and 2, and spreading the rest of the numbers amongst the others.

I wouldn't say sparkies are safe, as they are B2 licence. B1 has a greater coverage including mechanical and avionics. B2 is just avionics.

If you've only got 330, you may not be as safe as you think, and there will be an overabundance of A380 guys, as the company employed numbers that would have serviced the original 20 A380's they were going to get. Now it's only 12 and they have too many A380 guys in the hangars and the terminal.

There is no set procedure of how the culling will go, but it ain't gonna be pretty, no matter the way it is done.

Not to worry, those who don't go yet, will get another shot down the track.

Consolidated Award

Start with Clause 16.

Bear in mind things in this space are never that simple, there will be a lot of history and precedents established as to how things will be done. This is where your Union is particularly useful, they've had to do this before, it is a "core part of their business" and the odds are they have far better knowledge of how it should be done than most management who simply (and correctly) don't have this as part of their skillset. They will have HR backing them up.

There's a reason a lot of the Industrial Relations type HR people are paoched from a Union background, simply put they are far better trained and far harder in this space than regulation HR or corporate types who are drilled in so called "win-win" negotiations.

There is no "win-win" here. It's really "lose-lose" So each party will seek to minimise its losses, and that means the company wants to pay exactly what it has to and no more, you need your Union to argue for something extra for you using whatever tricks and negotiation tactics they can.

Best of luck with this and for the future, I'd love to see a vibrant aviation engineering capability in Australia but the simple fact is that it's another sector where we look far too expensive on a spreadsheet. I'm hearing that, fully costed (i.e. with all overheads, business costs and profit margin added on), overseas MROs are providing LAMEs at US$35 per hour. Australian fully loaded costs are somewhere between 3 and 4.5 times that figure in Aus$.

And with the high Australian dollar that US$35 is effectively Aus$35 so at a minimum a saving of $65 per LAME hour makes it very easy to recoup the costs of ferry flights etc. and QF only get charged for the hours worked on the aircraft, they have no labour holding costs in white space etc.

Tough times for a truly interesting and fascinating industry, hopefully someone figures out a way to keep as much of it within this country as possible and they get all the support from both business and labour that is needed.

Clause 16.1.5: "16.1.5 Redundancy means a declaration by the Company that an employee or employees are surplus to labour requirements because the quantity of the work has diminished."

The ONLY definition of Redundancy is diminished quantity of work.

Theoretically that defines the skillsets that will be "downsized", furthermore it could be argued that when identically qualified individuals must be differentiated then whoever can be shown to have a diminished workload is the unfortunate party (i.e. if one has a diminished workload and another does not then the definition of Redundancy means the reduced workload party is chosen).

As I said previously, it is never clear in this situation, it comes down to negotiation. SP or whoever can tie up massive management resources trying to sort it out, normally managers' don't have time to get so involved so sweeteners may be offered to encourage more "volunteers".

That's the headspace you need to get yourself in, you KNOW what the end outcome will be, you need to be thinking how best to look after your position.

Regarding Lame CR criteria, and with all things being equal, years of continuous service with the company coupled with years of financial membership with the ALAEA would seem like a reasonable filter that the union may suggest for any selection criteria.

Romulus, I'm not sure how these mro's hide their costs however $35 an hour will not buy you an experienced LAME who will be able to fix your aeroplane. This may be the cost of a signature to pen off work but more likely the cost is offset by super cheap non licenced labour. That is where the savings are.

Very interested to hear what other industries, or avenues for employment people are currently investigating.. What other industries or roles does our skill set translate to?? Wishing everyone involved all the best over the next few months..

No questions there Red, but provided the work is ticked of by CASA then it complies with requirements and it's a VERY hard argument to break.

It may well be they are taking a loss simply to keep people busy and are awaiting the upturn.

Either way it spells major problems for local people and businesses. How we respond to that determines the future of the industry.

Romulus,

This company will keep it simple. They see no value in doing otherwise because of the time they spend with each of the out going employees. This is a process they want to be as quick as possible.
There is no history of extras with this company in these matters. Packages have already been sorted and they will keep who they want despite any protests.
If the unions can improve their members lot, I'd be surprised but very pleased for them.
Planning for your future is the best thing and as I have said in a previous post, in 2-3 years, these turkeys will find that that they have overdone the redundancies and will want to re-hire again. They have done it a few times before and they will do it again.
I'm concerned for all those affected by this and I really hate the unbending attitude coming from this company and the lack of concern about the lives they are going to change. The future of industry is not determined by one airline thankfully, but it's certainly not clear.

God I feel so sorry for you guys caught up in this tragedy,is overseas an option? I've been told OZ licences are not accepted overseas. Is this true?

Oz licenses are excepted in China, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Middle East and NZ. You still have to sit air leg. Hong Kong will need you to do all the elec modules if you don't have full B1. The problem is that jobs are limited in those countries and they will want 3 types which pretty much aren't the ones QF guys have got. Either get on a A330?B777 course or look for another career.

As far as the cost of Australia.........Virgin Australia just sent a 737NG to Nashville (east coast of US) for a heavy check. You do the math on that one.

Middle Management - BMI 65 and growing
 

What is another knock down observation is how in the past 3 years the Qantas middle management has just grown and grown. I wonder what some of these muppets do during a day. It isn't reading books on subjects like "Getting the most from your employees", or "Negotiating win win outcomes".