VA Short/Medium haul EBA voted down
 

Today the EBA votes were released. 63% NO. Great result which sends a message to the company that we won't be railroaded into a half arsed agreement. :=

Damn right! If they thought they were gonna get away with a S%*t contract like that.... Not even a gold bar at sign on or a bag of silver for meal allowances...

Listen Spin, some of us have been flying long before you knew the meaning of sarcasm. If you bothered to read the contract you wouldn't start with the silly comments. I see you are from NZ, Im guessing you're still there and hence the attitude. I don't mean to be blunt but many issues still haven't been resolved in this contract and hence it got voted, or should I say shot, down.:D

Head wires.. crossed I think. Don't worry your mama read me every last word of that EBA. Wasn't bad... the contact either. ;) Lets just hope the boys back in NZ have the cahunas to throw theirs back. The kiwi contact was just missing the centre cardboard roll... ahhh bless my little cottonsofts.

Nice work guys and girls.

Listen Spin, learn how to spell contract and then you might know what one is when you get the chance to sign it :ugh:

Good luck with the kiwi thing.

So boys and girls, where to from here?

One of the biggest things to come out of this is the AFAP endorsing (yes they recommended a yes vote) a company document that the pilot body rejected! :ugh:
Alarm bells should be ringing to the AFAP members.

The facts of the results don't lie! and the facts indisputably say that the AFAP is NOT in tune with the pilot body.

One of the big problems has been that with the last EBA whenever there were clauses that could be open to creative interpretation the company always managed to twist them to their advantage even when clearly the spirit of the clause wasn't being adhered to. Without knowing the company's operational plans for the life of the new agreement ( re: bases, A/C types and fleet numbers, new routes, distribution of flying etc) there was just too much that could be open to such interpretation. However it seems that generally the reasons for voting no were many and varied (money, forced leave provisions etc. etc.) I am guessing that most of the Ejet fleet would have been for it but the bulk of the 73 and 330 guys would have been no. Let's wait for the final final final final offer!:}

It is irrelevant whether the Feds are in touch with their members or not. Clearly they did a deal with the Company to endorse the document. Just seems that in their haste to ingratiate themselves with the Company they forgot to create the illusion that they weren't expecting what the document contained.

In my view they clearly had prior info on the late inserts to the doc, probably because they had suggested them in a futile (or maybe not) attempt to attract more F/O members. Unfortunately such an ill thought out tactic has probably cost them a shed load of members in Long Haul, and given existing members pause to think what the hell they are up to.

Whether you like VIPA or not, it is for this exact reason that it was started and if they do nothing else, at least they have exposed the Feds yet again for being driven by self interest rather than the interest of the Virgin pilots.

Well either way, this will be an opportunity (critical I would say) for the two unions to actually work together. The feds can prove they listen to their members before the company, and vipa can prove they are more than hot air.

I live in hope, although history has me concerned...

Then the union has failed to properly sell the benefits of the deal. It is up to them to sell it if they have recommended it and answer any issues honestly.

Zippa bombarding their members every day for a week with texts saying vote no is not going to be liked by FWA

Yep the one thing you don't want to do is give management an incentive to look elsewhere for labour. With no scope there is no reason why they can't just start farming out flying to Alliance and/or Skywest.

Remember as far as ticketing goes a QF ticket = Qantaslink/National Jet/JetConnect/Mainline.

It amazes me that you morons need to come on here and sprout about the problems of the eba when we have our own private forum within in which we have constructive discussion......

There is no need to throw your toys in public like 14 year old school girls

No, don't stop! Please keep coming on here and throwing your toys in public.

It makes a nice change for us QANTAS guys to see we're not the only ones!:E

Naughty naughty VA. Imagine that, trying to shaft the pilots on their salaries! Where is the fun in that? That lacks flair don't you think?

Gobble, it wasn't about the salaries.

Well it is great to see the democratic process at work.

It will be interesting to see how many pilots have the stones to follow through with what comes next........

If history teaches us anything, pilots are generally self centered and lack conviction when the metal meets the meat. I guess we will see.

As far as AIPA/VIPA, I didn't know VA Pilots were Qantas Mainline / International Pilots.

I think there are quite a few red ties floating about if needed.

Ahhh, there it is, the modern managers achilles heel, the red tie. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...s/badteeth.gif

Fleet Pay?
 

What about fleet pay?

What happened with that?

"Il Douche" was supposedly all for it, just because he is a top bloke......

You sure about that? VIPA Executive Director Simon O’Hara says differently, from the murdoch press:

Just to recap.

Current Base Pay
EMB $152,710
B737 $190,889
A330 $199,369

Proposed Base Pay

EMB July 2012 $164,927, July 2015 $185,504
B737 July 2012 $198,525, July 2015 $217,986
A330 July 2012 $217,312, July 2015 $256,146

FO’s on 65%/60%/55%

I never bet my left one, but I’ll put money on the above wages not getting any better overall. Some may go up, but it will be at the expense of someone else. :ok:

Stunned silence gives the Company the upper hand!

Where too from here?

Why does it have to be a case of either having the upper hand?

Surely the employees are there to make a buck as is the company. Wouldn't it be better if there was a mutually acceptable position where each group got some of what they wanted?

Because a corporations desire for cost cutting is eternal and insatiable. The utopian ideal of win\win is a fairytale for the adult world.

My understanding is that the pilot group did not want fleet pay.

Then the 'pilot group' hasn't thought the issue all the way through. More rightly, no one has taken the time to explain the issue to them.

Fleet pay is a way of keeping your internal cost pressures down (recuces cross training costs) and reduces most of ithe major inequity between fleets. You should be avoiding at all costs things that promote disunity within the pilot group and nothing will do that more than something that will distort pay, whether or not to take promotion, etc. You only have to see the self serving behaviour of people in other airlines who believe that S/Os being paid more than wide body F/Os is a fair and just outcome to see where this road can take you.

DHD
 

You mean like the EBA that was knocked back!!!!;)

The Pilot group don't want fleet pay and the CEO doesn't want fleet pay. The CEO has even made public statements about pilots being payed based on the size of the aircraft they fly.

Fleet pay was discussed, discussed, discussed then shot down, cremated, buried and exorcised. It's gone. Please let's not go there again lest that poltergeist gets back out.

For all the reasons keg mentioned, tiered fleet pay that recognises length of service is without doubt the best system in my view. Trouble is, either a pilot somewhere will have to take a pay cut, or the Company will have to pay extra to get it in.

Neither of those things are going to happen, so Fleet Pay is, and will remain, a pipe dream.

. Maybe not the 73 drivers, but I'm pretty certain the ejet guys would like it. Anyway as you say, the majority of the group don't want it and it's not gonna happen.

So what happens now? Back to the drawing board? I find it interesting that AFAP endorsed it, yet the result was pretty negative :eek:

VIPA didn't endorse it though as I understand it. Are many people members of both unions?

If not, is the vote outcome in line with the split of pilots between AFAP and VIPA?

Trying to work out if everyone voted along 'party lines' or on their own.

Lets not forget the Union is there to represent the members.
A certain Union endorsed the EBA doc without canvassing the members opinion. Yet another EBA where the long established Union endorses a Doc the majority thinks is less than optimal.
Why endorse something that the majority of union members thinks shouldn't see the light of day???

Well my take is we pay our union fees so that they do that all that hard work for us. They can pick it apart and view the good from the bad, come to a decision and let us know. Why would they need to ask every member and say what do you think?? Thats what we're paying them for!!

I pay my union fees therefore I no longer need to think.......... Great.

Maybe a bad choice of words...they give their recommendation - they are representative pilots after all.

I pay my union fees and they also want me to do their job (ie disseminate an EBA without a legal background and give it a thumbs up or down before they can state their professional opinion)...Great.

Voting with your feet is one other option. I did and haven't looked back. I am very content where I am now working, and even more happy that I no longer have to endure the brown drivel that leaks from HR's mouths. HR in any airline are no more useful than an infected hemorrhoid, and some more than others to be certain.
Too many people blame the Unions for the ****e deals that are struck. That is merely misdirected blame and an easy scapegoat. A lack of unity among pilots and greasy pole sliding HR footstools are the biggest problem. Try this for size - ALL pilots stick together, vote 100% united, THEN when the proposal is rejected by HR and the Execs you all put in a 100% united vote of no confidence in specific Execs and their HR minions. Watch them fall!! The Yanks are a great example with their steel, maritime and selected industrial unions. A united blue collar workforce with giant balls wins the fight.

Missed this bit

VAIPA. Now I understand. After seeing first hand how things get out of control with AIPA trying to represent Jetstar pilots, hardly suprising to see this getting out of control at VA. I’ve got good mates doing this :ugh::ugh::ugh::mad::mad::mad: Locking in $256,146 for A330 skippers and $166,495 for A330 FO’s would have been smart.

Oh well, lets see VAIPA pull a rabbit out of the hat.