It's not all about money (well maybe it is for some), but that's not why this thing didn't get voted up. Too many open-ended clauses - leaving too much open to interpretation - had a lot more of us unhappy than because of the remuneration offer.

As also suggested, I don't think the industrial landscape at VA is anything like QF; I, for one, still think it's a good place to go to work, & whilst the honeymoon period may be well & truly over, I'd still rather have Borghetti at the helm instead of our predecessor or anyone else. What he has achieved in his time here thus far is remarkable, & deserving of the recognition.

As Campdoag said in an earlier post, it is unfortunate that so many morons (of which I suppose I'm now included) have decided to air their grievances on this forum when we've got our own private one in which to do so. The increasing media attention will not help our cause, & on that note, many of us are becoming increasingly annoyed at how VIPA is pitching it in the aftermath. :ugh:

Has anyone considered that perhaps the spin in the press is not driven by the unions. I'm no i industrial expert, but why would a union be pushing the comparison with Q. Like most of you, i can't see any benefit in it.

Is it possible that the Company has planted the seed in the mind of the journo's? After all journalists in this country are not known for letting facts get in the way of a good story.

Journalist: Mr O'Hara, do Qantas pilots get paid more than Virgin Pilots?

O'Hara: Yes they do.

Journalist: Are Virgin Pilots satisfied with the Company remuneration offer in the latest EBA?

O'Hara: No they are not.

Newspaper Article: VIPA executive director Simon O'Hara states Virgin Pilots demand to be paid the same as Qantas pilots.

That seems far more likely to me than the unions suggesting pilots want to be paid as much as Q pilots.

Remember the Company has an army of PR spin doctors with the whole playbook on how to get pilots to crucify each other, and lets face it, it isn't that hard to do. Just look how badly we reacted to the seniority list issue. Divide and conquer has never failed to work in our industry in this country.

I think I'll wait until i get some communication from the union on what their position is before i get concerned about what direction they are headed, rather than make assumptions based on press reports.

I must say, the stupidity shown by many here is breath taking.

There are two unions involved in this process, one has had a crack at putting up an EBA to the vote, perhaps good, perhaps not good, that is totally up to the pilots who bothered to vote.

One Union is running a no campaign in the previously voted down EBA, that's OK, but what are they offering as an alternative ?, you know, a proposed EBA perhaps ?.

Running a "no campaign" is not effective representation.

Having more than one representative body in the workplace allows the company to divide and weaken the pilot group, why would you lot allow this to happen ?.

Its great to see nothing changes in the bigger companies, very few pilots put up their hands to be involved in the process, whilst many in the rest of the group then choose to be critical of the process and outcome without any real insight into what the actual negotiation process entails.

You will never get everything you want, neither will the company. Pure and simply put, its about compromise.

No pilot council member gets paid in any way, shape or form, they do it for the benefit of the pilot body, and in return have some pretty horrible things said about them on forums like this, you know who you are, you should be ashamed of yourselves.

As to the members of the other union, who I bear no ill will, don't be puppets in an attempt of one union to buy their way into a new workforce without ensuring only your interests will be represented, read into that what you like.

Josh Cox....any relation to Lawrie?

No relation ( well not that my mother admits ).

Yes, Keith, I have. Nevertheless Simon O'Hara does not represent the company, he represents VIPA. You can argue that the company may be planting the seeds in the minds of the journo's. But... Regardless of how the journo's frame the question, it's the answer that dictates the tone & what direction it all goes.

Given all that we know about how notoriously inaccurate aviation journalism is in australia and combine that with statements in said media that do not seem to make sense, why is it that our first conclusion is the unions are clueless and taking huge risks with their strategy, or could it be that there is an anti VIPA agenda in the background?

I constantly disappoint myself by being surprised by the speed at which pilots jump to crucify their own.

Really?

I've been part of an EA negotiating team (assisted by the AFAP :ok:) and that wasn't the case with us. Happy to be corrected, but didn't the REX team recommended a 'No' vote in the recent REX EBA?

DIVOSH!

Di Vosh,

That fact doesn't really suit Psycho's argument. You know what they say, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!!!:ok:

Joe, your/their last agreement expired 30NOV11, it is now 26SEP12, some 10 months later.

Infact the process appears to have started with EBA update number 1, on the 23JUN11.

This instant process you write of appears to have thus far taken some 15 months.............

psycho joe

So eloquently put I could be forgiven for thinking that you're not a pilot. :}

But you'll need some actual substance in your post if you want a better reply from me.

DIVOSH!

Is it possible that they gave their yes endorsement after having been negotiating the contents of the document with the company over the previous12 odd months ?.

I am wondering Joe, if you understand the process, companies generally do not just print out an EBA that they've written without any input from the pilots councils etc etc.

I am also wondering if you really understand what the AFAP/AIPA ( read: pilot union / council or federation ) is and does.

The pilots are represented by their own pilot council, elected member from within your pilot group.

The union/federation/association is the support services to this council.

The Union is not the sword, the pilot body and pilot councils are the sword, the Union/federation/association is the shield and dagger.

The 34 EBA 2011 updates, I say again, thirty four, would IMHO be evidence to the contrary.

Australian Federation of Air Pilots

If you are unable to view the 34 updates by logging onto the AFAP website, email me and I will download them and email them to you.

[email protected]

After 10 months of negotiations, I would expect that the negotiators concerned would have very in-depth knowledge of what and where the negotiations were heading. In the last two weeks before the document was released, the company made considerable concessions compared, to the document they released to all us in early August. I know for a fact that parts of the EBA were sent to the union reps, before its final release to the pilot group. The AFAP team worked through this document all weekend, before its release, and when compared with the surveys taken last year, were happy that it filled most demands.
So Jo, where were the vaipa team? Sleeping!
For all the updates from the team: Virgin Pilot Federation EBA 2011

Josh,

Who the hell are you? What right do you have to be posting/providing access to confidential and private correspondence from any union onto a public forum.

It is not public record nor is it appropriate for the details of private negotiations from either union to be discussed on a public forum.

If anyone has issues with the negotiations, concerns about the process discuss it with either of the unions or on the private internal forums, which if you were actually an employee of Virgin, or indeed directly involved in these negotiations you would be aware of and have access to.

Incidently, the D*!khead who started this forum has rocks in his/her head.

Have a nice day.

CTOT ON,

I post using my real name, who the hell are you ?.

Have not posted anything private or confidential, I believe joe is a VA pilot and already has access to the updates, I was politely calling his, what I saw as a bluff.

Incidently, any AFAP member can see all the updates, so no secrets there.

Well this discussion in well and truly in the public forum ( and not due to me ), I do not like seeing lies spread about the VA Pilot Council or the AFAP, there is a great deal of damaging BS being spread on this thread, which is why a couple of us have responded.

If a non union member was to read this thread and believe it, they would probably not see any benefit in joining, which benefits who ?.

Josh,

Good on you for using your name but I dont care what your name is. My question was rather who do you think you are. Do you really think you have the right to provide access or forward documents from the AFAP? No, if either of the unions have something to say to the public or media they will. If a pilot at virgin has something to say about the negotiation process one would hope they have the sense and professionalism to discuss it with their union or the company.

If your not a virgin pilot or involved in the negotiation.... mind your business.

Has either union authorised you to publish or email their negotiation discussions. I dont think so. And thats my point. By all means as an individual who obviously has an interest in the goings on at Virgin, watch from a distance.... but keep your nose out of it!

CTOT,

Post / spread confidential info, really ?, did you actually read my last couple of posts ?.

I will happily keep my nose out, if, and only if, there is no misinformation and lies spread.

Damaging lies that damage the credibility of the AFAP or the VA Pilot Council, you know, the guys that, for free, and mostly in their own time are trying to negotiate a good deal for all VA pilots.

The 34 updates are in the public domain already aren't they?

http://www.vflight.net/eba2011.html

psycho joe removed his posts.

What Josh Cox and Home Brew said :ok:

That is,

and



DIVOSH!

Must be time for Management (and HR) to wield out some flair??Maybe some group card building or sing-along is in order, do they still that?
It is almost October so maybe a new Xmas group video would help everyone settle down, relax, exhibit some frivolity, just like old times!

"that is totally up to the pilots who bothered to vote."

Umm yessss Josh, it was 97% of pilots who voted! Quite a few bothered to vote.

"I must say, the stupidity shown by many here is breath taking."

Yes Agreed!

"Running a "no campaign" is not effective representation."

Why? VIPA exposed flaws in the 'agreement' and the haste at which this was being pushed through and the conservative pilot group voted NO by majority. The majority saw through the company rhetoric to sell this EBA mainly on their own terms and decided that the first draft was too open-ended (clauses open to interpretation). Some were not happy with renumeration.

"Is it possible that they gave their yes endorsement after having been negotiating the contents of the document with the company over the previous12 odd months"

No.....not entirely. The company was pushing hard to introduce clauses that would impact heavily on lifestyle (conditions like airport reserve and others), quite natural for a corporate company to desire this as cabin crew do already. It seemed the company were steadfast for quite sometime and not willing to budge on certain items. They then reneged on some at the 11th hour to try and get the EBA over the line after a revolt by the pilot group. There were a few sweeteners as well during this time by the company.

"Having more than one representative body in the workplace allows the company to divide and weaken the pilot group, why would you lot allow this to happen"

Unfortunately.....that's life! It just proves that pilots need an alternative to one union. It's really a confidence vote isn't it. In an ideal world...............:}

In the U.S. after a "No" vote on a contract that the negotiating team recommended, the team steps down and makes way for a new negotiating team. Maybe it is time that the AFAP step aside and let the VIPA negotiate the next offer!!

I'm having flashbacks to the QF EBA8 vote down

Spoilher,

A vote of 60% against does not mean the other union got it right.

It means a combination of atleast two things:

1) many pilots were not happy with the EBA ( and that is their right ),
2) many pilots fell for the doomsday scenarios presented by the other union ( most of which has been dressed up as "flaws in the proposed EBA" ).

A no campaign is not a solution, offering an EBA up for the vote is a solution.

A no vote means exactly that, no, we will not accept this offer, i.e. company sharpen your pencil, why don't you put your name up as a pilot rep and help.

Just remember, those guys are on the end of the phone for when you have an incident at work, they give their time freely, holding your hand through CASA interviews, ATSB interviews, company interview, answering rostering practices and EBA questions at all hours, all free, and you still think these guys are corrupt ?. Whatever you are smoking, I want some.

How exactly do you suggest your council members would be advantaged by spending twelve odd months negotiating an EBA, then to endorse one they think is inferior ?.

If you are wondering why the terms and conditions in our industry are so rapidly declining with respect to the cost of living, you need only look in the mirror.

Spoilher, the last half of my post was not directed at you.

God, why us this thread still going?

Its clear that only Spoilher and a couple of others have any first hand knowledge, the rest are just acting as pro AFAP mouthpeices.

Josh. Posting this sort of utterly ridiculous drivel without any first hand knowledge just makes you look foolish; and quite frankly, if the AFAP team members have alluded to this then it just serves to srengthen the belief that the AFAP has lost the plot and should stand aside.

The level of pay or the lack of is irrelevant in this case. Volunteering doesn't automatically make people right. There are volunteers in all unions.

For once i'd like to see the AFAP display some inward reflection. Admit they got it wrong, not blame anyone else, and resolve to work in a collaborative nature with the other union.

psycho, I have to say I'm losing track of your drift with most of your posts disappearing - is it that it's ok for you to bash the feds and extoll the virtues of vipa, and not ok for the opposite?

I personally couldn't give a rats which union apparently got it wrong or right, in fact I would say until we have a signed document it is far too early to tell. Just because you happened to back the winning side in a no vote by a group of largely cynical, suspicious and self-interested pilots (myself included) does not mean you are a winner.

Time to close this thread Mods!! It's run it's course:ugh:

Next step is usually pia,can't wait to see that s?!t fight in such a divided group!!

You're making a judgement that the pilot group is divided based on a few posts on a rumour network?

Are you acting alone or do you work for Today Tonight or some other sort of outfit with view points based on a ridiculous interpretations and zero facts?

:ugh:

Dragun it is no and no!!

If you get peoples hopes up, they tend to expect a result.

What one really needs to look at is both Unions Log of Claims prior to the negotiations starting, and what one will find is who has been more successful than the other. Its that simple.

One Union has a realistic approach, the other a "give me, give me" approach.

The other major question that needs to be asked is where to from here? The silence was deafening, no updates to members yet two media articles. And now more surveys with questions designed to sway the data.

The Karma bus is around the corner and its about to toot its horn.

Really? It's "that simple" is it?

I wasn't aware that the result is judged by which unions log of claims most closely resembled the outcome. I thought it was about getting the best result for the pilots, whilst maintaining sustainable employment costs for the company.

The end result of the Long Haul Agreement Rem package was more than the Feds even asked for. So you can bang on all you like about being "realistic" but that isn't how it works. You ask for the unbelievable and negotiate back to common ground, the same way as the company starts with "you're not getting anything"" and negotiates up from that.

Its called ambit claims and negotiation.

If pilots get their hopes up and expect a result based on a Log of Claims, then they are as dumb as management think they are.

I work from the premise that most pilots will have read the document, and their respective unions advice, then formed their own opinion, with the union recommendation validating their view. I would be disappointed if there were enough pilots voting along party lines to affect the outcome. So, working on my premise, VIPA got it right because the pilots validated the union position.

Verification, or otherwise, of this will come when the final agreement is in place. If the final document is better than the one that has just been rejected then VIPA, and the pilots, will have got it right. If the final document is worse than the rejected offer, then the Feds will have got it right.

The end result of the Long Haul Agreement Rem package was more than the Feds even asked for.

You might want to go and check this fact!

I will also be suggesting to my Union and the Company at the next EBA to publish an offer very early on to get the NO vote out of the way so we can all move forward.

I have asked many drivers at VB why did you vote no, the answer has been the "wording". When I produce the document and ask which wording in specific, they cannot show me or even discuss which clauses they are concerned with. Funny stuff!

VB has gained 400 drivers since the last EBA, and sorry to say, they are easily led and industrially immature.

I agree with you Virginexcess, its all about whats best for the Pilot Group, but when the information being fed to them is factually incorrect at times and also misunderstood by certain factions, your bound to get yourself in a pickle.

This theory of asking for the unreasonable to then meet half way is great in theory, but when what were asking for is either industrially defunct (Leave Loading) or Super contributions above the tax threshold etc etc, one has to wonder WTF is going on.

Certain factions are Teflon at the moment, we are not aloud to point out any faults in their direction, yet it's ok for them to sling mud and innuendo.

The Karma Bus is around the corner and its about to honk its horn!

"TOOT TOOT, HONK HONK"

Care to elaborate?

Virgnexcess, sorry for taking so long to respond, had to re-read your post which has been retrospectively edited, like a certain website that has had their media release retrospectively edited. I think this may fit into an example you are looking for.

Also, a certain update to members regarding RSV48 was factually incorrect in its substance.

Shall I keep going?

Saying something is factually incorrect does not mean it is. Retrospectively editing a website or a forum post does not render it factually incorrect either.

I am not suggesting your are wrong in your assertions, you just haven't provided any facts.

FACT:

Direct from AFAP Log Of Claims:

Captain Year 1 $234685
Captain Year 2 $241725
Captain Year 3 $248977
Captain Year 4 $256446
Captain Year 5 $264140
Captain Year 6 $272064

Direct from LH Agreement:

Captain Year 1 $199541
Captain Year 2 $207339
Captain Year 3 $215596
Captain Year 4 $224312
Captain Year 5 $233486
Captain Year 6 $242661
Captain Year 7 $252294
Captain Year 8 $262395

People saying that the end result at LH was more than what the AFAP were asking for is complete garbage.

Agreed, however my point related to the final submissions prior to the vote.

I don't have the same access to the documents you have, but the last doc put forward by the AFAP at the negotiations was for 217k for a year 4 Captain, which ended up being 224 in the final company doc, because VIPA held out.