It's not all about money (well maybe it is for some), but that's not why this thing didn't get voted up. Too many open-ended clauses - leaving too much open to interpretation - had a lot more of us unhappy than because of the remuneration offer.

As also suggested, I don't think the industrial landscape at VA is anything like QF; I, for one, still think it's a good place to go to work, & whilst the honeymoon period may be well & truly over, I'd still rather have Borghetti at the helm instead of our predecessor or anyone else. What he has achieved in his time here thus far is remarkable, & deserving of the recognition.

As Campdoag said in an earlier post, it is unfortunate that so many morons (of which I suppose I'm now included) have decided to air their grievances on this forum when we've got our own private one in which to do so. The increasing media attention will not help our cause, & on that note, many of us are becoming increasingly annoyed at how VIPA is pitching it in the aftermath. :ugh:

Has anyone considered that perhaps the spin in the press is not driven by the unions. I'm no i industrial expert, but why would a union be pushing the comparison with Q. Like most of you, i can't see any benefit in it.

Is it possible that the Company has planted the seed in the mind of the journo's? After all journalists in this country are not known for letting facts get in the way of a good story.

Journalist: Mr O'Hara, do Qantas pilots get paid more than Virgin Pilots?

O'Hara: Yes they do.

Journalist: Are Virgin Pilots satisfied with the Company remuneration offer in the latest EBA?

O'Hara: No they are not.

Newspaper Article: VIPA executive director Simon O'Hara states Virgin Pilots demand to be paid the same as Qantas pilots.

That seems far more likely to me than the unions suggesting pilots want to be paid as much as Q pilots.

Remember the Company has an army of PR spin doctors with the whole playbook on how to get pilots to crucify each other, and lets face it, it isn't that hard to do. Just look how badly we reacted to the seniority list issue. Divide and conquer has never failed to work in our industry in this country.

I think I'll wait until i get some communication from the union on what their position is before i get concerned about what direction they are headed, rather than make assumptions based on press reports.

I must say, the stupidity shown by many here is breath taking.

There are two unions involved in this process, one has had a crack at putting up an EBA to the vote, perhaps good, perhaps not good, that is totally up to the pilots who bothered to vote.

One Union is running a no campaign in the previously voted down EBA, that's OK, but what are they offering as an alternative ?, you know, a proposed EBA perhaps ?.

Running a "no campaign" is not effective representation.

Having more than one representative body in the workplace allows the company to divide and weaken the pilot group, why would you lot allow this to happen ?.

Its great to see nothing changes in the bigger companies, very few pilots put up their hands to be involved in the process, whilst many in the rest of the group then choose to be critical of the process and outcome without any real insight into what the actual negotiation process entails.

You will never get everything you want, neither will the company. Pure and simply put, its about compromise.

No pilot council member gets paid in any way, shape or form, they do it for the benefit of the pilot body, and in return have some pretty horrible things said about them on forums like this, you know who you are, you should be ashamed of yourselves.

As to the members of the other union, who I bear no ill will, don't be puppets in an attempt of one union to buy their way into a new workforce without ensuring only your interests will be represented, read into that what you like.

Josh Cox....any relation to Lawrie?

No relation ( well not that my mother admits ).

Yes, Keith, I have. Nevertheless Simon O'Hara does not represent the company, he represents VIPA. You can argue that the company may be planting the seeds in the minds of the journo's. But... Regardless of how the journo's frame the question, it's the answer that dictates the tone & what direction it all goes.

Given all that we know about how notoriously inaccurate aviation journalism is in australia and combine that with statements in said media that do not seem to make sense, why is it that our first conclusion is the unions are clueless and taking huge risks with their strategy, or could it be that there is an anti VIPA agenda in the background?

I constantly disappoint myself by being surprised by the speed at which pilots jump to crucify their own.

Really?

I've been part of an EA negotiating team (assisted by the AFAP :ok:) and that wasn't the case with us. Happy to be corrected, but didn't the REX team recommended a 'No' vote in the recent REX EBA?

DIVOSH!

Di Vosh,

That fact doesn't really suit Psycho's argument. You know what they say, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!!!:ok:

Joe, your/their last agreement expired 30NOV11, it is now 26SEP12, some 10 months later.

Infact the process appears to have started with EBA update number 1, on the 23JUN11.

This instant process you write of appears to have thus far taken some 15 months.............

psycho joe

So eloquently put I could be forgiven for thinking that you're not a pilot. :}

But you'll need some actual substance in your post if you want a better reply from me.

DIVOSH!

Is it possible that they gave their yes endorsement after having been negotiating the contents of the document with the company over the previous12 odd months ?.

I am wondering Joe, if you understand the process, companies generally do not just print out an EBA that they've written without any input from the pilots councils etc etc.

I am also wondering if you really understand what the AFAP/AIPA ( read: pilot union / council or federation ) is and does.

The pilots are represented by their own pilot council, elected member from within your pilot group.

The union/federation/association is the support services to this council.

The Union is not the sword, the pilot body and pilot councils are the sword, the Union/federation/association is the shield and dagger.

The 34 EBA 2011 updates, I say again, thirty four, would IMHO be evidence to the contrary.

Australian Federation of Air Pilots

If you are unable to view the 34 updates by logging onto the AFAP website, email me and I will download them and email them to you.

[email protected]

After 10 months of negotiations, I would expect that the negotiators concerned would have very in-depth knowledge of what and where the negotiations were heading. In the last two weeks before the document was released, the company made considerable concessions compared, to the document they released to all us in early August. I know for a fact that parts of the EBA were sent to the union reps, before its final release to the pilot group. The AFAP team worked through this document all weekend, before its release, and when compared with the surveys taken last year, were happy that it filled most demands.
So Jo, where were the vaipa team? Sleeping!
For all the updates from the team: Virgin Pilot Federation EBA 2011

Josh,

Who the hell are you? What right do you have to be posting/providing access to confidential and private correspondence from any union onto a public forum.

It is not public record nor is it appropriate for the details of private negotiations from either union to be discussed on a public forum.

If anyone has issues with the negotiations, concerns about the process discuss it with either of the unions or on the private internal forums, which if you were actually an employee of Virgin, or indeed directly involved in these negotiations you would be aware of and have access to.

Incidently, the D*!khead who started this forum has rocks in his/her head.

Have a nice day.

CTOT ON,

I post using my real name, who the hell are you ?.

Have not posted anything private or confidential, I believe joe is a VA pilot and already has access to the updates, I was politely calling his, what I saw as a bluff.

Incidently, any AFAP member can see all the updates, so no secrets there.

Well this discussion in well and truly in the public forum ( and not due to me ), I do not like seeing lies spread about the VA Pilot Council or the AFAP, there is a great deal of damaging BS being spread on this thread, which is why a couple of us have responded.

If a non union member was to read this thread and believe it, they would probably not see any benefit in joining, which benefits who ?.

Josh,

Good on you for using your name but I dont care what your name is. My question was rather who do you think you are. Do you really think you have the right to provide access or forward documents from the AFAP? No, if either of the unions have something to say to the public or media they will. If a pilot at virgin has something to say about the negotiation process one would hope they have the sense and professionalism to discuss it with their union or the company.

If your not a virgin pilot or involved in the negotiation.... mind your business.

Has either union authorised you to publish or email their negotiation discussions. I dont think so. And thats my point. By all means as an individual who obviously has an interest in the goings on at Virgin, watch from a distance.... but keep your nose out of it!

CTOT,

Post / spread confidential info, really ?, did you actually read my last couple of posts ?.

I will happily keep my nose out, if, and only if, there is no misinformation and lies spread.

Damaging lies that damage the credibility of the AFAP or the VA Pilot Council, you know, the guys that, for free, and mostly in their own time are trying to negotiate a good deal for all VA pilots.

The 34 updates are in the public domain already aren't they?

http://www.vflight.net/eba2011.html

psycho joe removed his posts.

What Josh Cox and Home Brew said :ok:

That is,

and



DIVOSH!