ATC Staff Shortages?
 

Air controller 'fatigue threat' | The Australian

So, perhaps all the staffing departures, from TOPS in particular, are starting to make a difference.

Its only getting worse.
The exodus of staff is starting to really bite, with no replacements on the horiizon.
The Learning Academy is a farce, they havent churned out more than a dozen trainees into the field this year. This doesn't cover the sand pit "transfers", let alone retirements.

Start dusting off you TIBA procedures.

And its not even close to renegotiating the agreement....

Yes, in breaking news it has been revealed that two first names has realised that ATC has an age profile problem :D Yes, 8 years after being told that ATC had an impending age profile problem, he and his ATC hating minions in clown castle have realised there is an age profile problem :D

As for the other staffing issues, 8 years after being told there is a staffing problem in ATC..........................

Tiba
 

Is it time for a repost of THAT MAP for the newbies and younger generations benefit.......I'll have it some where :confused:

J:E

AsA management are busting their a*#ses to prevent "contingency procedures" (TIBA) from being implemented.

Now.

Give it 12 mths when negotiations begin for the next EBA and just watch the number of TIBA's that are "allowed" to occur by management as those renagade controllers begin their campaign of industrial saboatge. :=

If only the industry and the flying public realised the number of times airspace closures have been averted by the dedication and commitment of coalface controllers that bendover backwards to ensure "service continuity". How often do we see a press release about the number of controllers that reorganise their lives at short notice to ensure that the flying public enjoys the level of safety they should expect from a first world ATC provider?
But should controllers legitimately exercise their obligations not to work under the affects of fatigue or sickness that occassionally creates a situation where there are no viable replacements available because the roster pool has been slashed to the absolute minimum and the result is TIBA or significant disruptions at major hubs, then watch the witch hunt and the negative publicity against controllers fly.

Beware, AsA is running on the smell of an oily rag and there is nothing left in the tank.

Hush your potty mouth - that is a Worlds Best Practice, award winning, employer of choice's, increasingly engaged staff's best oily rag you are referring to! :yuk:

ASA - Voted itself Australia's favourite Air Traffic Control provider for the 7th year in a row! :eek:

RE.." controllers that bendover backwards to ensure "service continuity"...

Not to mention - at all - those others who bend over frontwards - seemingly to enhance their own 'little, small minded position' in the 'heirarchy'.....

To the Workers - well done guys and gals!!!
To the Wa*#ers - well.....wot can one say......except, go forth.......

Bah Humbug!!:eek::eek:

All those who stood up and said there was a staffing problem were moved on and some just saw how toxic the management was behaving and left.

It is a 'broken' system if overtime is required to keep it running. ATCs like anyone else deserve their downtime - not being constantly harrassed to come in to work.

Bullying, blacklists, using fear as a management tool - it is scary how similar the organisation is to a facist regime.

If the monumental waste of money on 'business development' activities (lets talk GRAS/GBAS/etc) had been diverted to staffing and domestic technology we would not be having this discussion.

Will it change? Of course not. The minister and chairman have spent too much time backing what is occurring.

Talk about pilots being their own worst enemy...

As much as I appreciate you keeping my flight in the air, as long as you continue to bust a gut (and chance fatigue and error) to artificially keep the system working ... there will be no change to the system. :ugh:

Is it possible to have some of YSRI (Richmond NSW) mil controllers take over some civvy duties as a secondment? They (YSRI) are active every weekend to manage a very tiny amount of traffic? It'd be good industry experience for them (mil guys) and provide some breaks for civvy guys. Just a thought.

Ha Ha Ha Blue shirts separating traffic. Now that is funny!

Why is it funny? You don't think they are competent?

Bell-Flyer,
Blind Freddy was having a friendly joke with our RAAF counterparts.
The real answer to question is that it is not that simple. To train a qualified RAAF controller onto a civil position would take approx 6-12 months. ASA takes as many ex RAAF controllers as they can but the RAAF are not keen to give them up as they are always struggling to keep their numbers. The RAAF wouldn't release them on secondment to ASA as ASA would poach them ASAP. ASA also wouldn't want to use up a valuable and limited training slot unless they are going to get a full time controller.

its not that..........

They are not trained and kept current in the various sectors and roles that you think they could be usefull in.

I am no expert on all things ATC.....in fact know bugger all, but its fair to say you cannot drag a guy or girl out of the tower in Richmond and do say BN or SY APP just like that.

Just can't drag you out of your Bell fling wing and into a B747 at the drop of a hat if you get the idea.

Nice thought though.

It's a concept that managers struggle with, as well.

Controllers learn to work a sector (several sectors, in fact). However, EVERY sector is different, and just because you can work one sector, does not automatically mean you can work another (and that is not even taking up the issue of different roles- app/tower/enroute). The analogy for helicopters and 747s is apt.

It would be a managers wet dream to have sectors, or control positions, that are generic. Never, ever going to happen. (Some managers refuse to acknowledge that fact, bless them ;-) ).

My understanding is that even a fully trained ASA controller takes 12 months to be fully trained in a new port/position. This is not an area where you can apply the quick fix bandaid solutions that are all the modern manager is capable of, in aviation or other industries.

Across Australian business, crisis management and crossed fingers have kept a lot of morons in new Mercedes and most of the time they get away with it, but you can't just 'strategize for new paradigms or whatever's trendy this week' :yuk: and supply a ready number of ATCs for a given position overnight, no matter how many 'incentives' you offer and how much you stamp your little Ferragamos.

This is CASA to a tee !!!!!! When did we switch threads ?

Thanks for enlightening me; I didn't know. I only suggested it because I deal almost daily with Richmond controllers and they seem downright bored out of their brains with the tiny bona fide mil traffic they have to deal with.

RI APP is provided by civilian staff within the Sydney TCU

The CEO once complained to a Senate hearing that it takes 2 years to train an ATC, but they only have to give 2 weeks notice

^^ maybe he should remember that when dealing with us
(forcing a 5 yr bond on the new people is not a solution - it often takes nearly that long to make them the equivalent of the Full performance controller who does only need to give 2 weeks notice)

These 'staff shortages' have been going on for years - it must be 7 years at least.

If controllers are doing enough overtime to keep things ticking over for the past 7 years (with the odd TIBA) it would seem that maybe there are only staff shortages in some peoples eyes.

Maybe the system is working just how management want it to. If people are willing to waste their lives doing overtime - who cares let them do it. That is the system and many Aussie ATC's think the overtime is just fine.

Baileys,

The system is not being held together just by overtime. There have been a number of policies put in place in the last couple of years, without which would have caused an airspace closure or a NOTAM issued identifying possible delays and restrictions.

Closures have been minimised through the "Short Break Procedure" where a controller may leave the operational position, to go to the toilet or eat something, as long as they leave written instructions for an unqualified person (usually a supervisor) to hold the fort until their return, and not to do anything outside of those instructions. The controller generally needs to pick a time where there is little chance of something happening. CASA has approved this. Previously, a NOTAM would be issued notifying TIBA for the period of the break, and all would be known by all parties well in advance.

Traffic management (delays, restrictions) still occur but instead of NOTAMing delays and restrictions due staff shortage or "staff availability", traffic is diverted or slowed down without any NOTAM or reason give. The practice of controllers who transmit the reasons for the delays (lack of staff) is frowned upon.

Other ways to avoid closures is to "reinterpret" the minimum time off between shifts, and acquittal hours due fatigue issues, thus maximising coverage where previously coverage wasn't possible.

HtH,

All those points are valid to a degree, but honestly how long would the system last if every ATC stopped taking AD's/OT?

A matter of days i`d say for some Towers/TMA`s/Groups

Must go, 'private number' is calling.....:ugh:

So, was it a case of ignore, accept going back into work or ponder? :ok:

Hempy,

Exactly - Australian ATC's are their own worst enemy. Find some solidarity before you start complaining again.

Seeing as polls are the flavour of the minute:-

Mods, how about the following poll:-

If ATC stop AD/ED to cover essential services:-

Options for Pilots:-

1. Will you whine when you are held on the bay or elsewhere?
2. Will you cheer, and tell the punters in the tube behind you why it is so?
3. Will you blame ATC (to the punters down the back) for the delay, like so many Aircrew do, irrespective of why the late departure?
4. Will you shut the f$%k up and say nothing for fear of airline management reprisal?

Let's not be shy with responses eh .... there are numerous ATC's travelling every day listening to the PA's!

They should tell the Truth..............


Ladies and gentlemen, this is Captain Bloggs(:}) speaking, thank you for flying #### today, we would like to tell you we are pushing back on time, however due to ATC staff shortages there are delays which are unavoidable for now and the next 18 months or longer until the ASA management employ suuficient ATCers to provide the services that our airline and you the passengers pay for. If you feel somewhat disadvantaged, and we as an airline do as it costs us $millions, we would encourage you to write to the CEO of ASA with copies to the minister and your local federal member.

If you would like some material for your letters please visit pprune dot org D&G for suggestions.

And thank you for flying Q/V/J/T

ATC Academy
 

I for one just finished 54 weeks of ATC training at the Academy and I am glad to inform you that 5 students in my course have passed into field training. I, unfortunately, am not one of them. Despite being told that I was in the 'top half' of the group. Despite only ever really having one instructor sit between 2 trainees for the final 3 weeks of training. Despite having instructor feedback that always said, "busy run handled well". It seems that it is imperative to 'learn your airspace' and to 'account for aircraft performance' so that you are not giving requirements to aircraft that are:
a) not possible
b) so far inside aircraft profile performance that it would seem ridiculous.
Oh, but here's the catch. Don't do it in an exam, because then you are deemed NOT SUITABLE FOR FIELD TRAINING.
May sound like sour grapes, not really. More :mad: angry at the fact that after all the sacrifices, all the development, having demonstrated day in, day out that I COULD do this job, I am now heaved out the door with 2 weeks pay, on the dole, with a family of 5 to feed, despite no aircraft getting anywhere near each other.
But, hey, they're the experts.

Mr Twister,

Where have you demonstrated 'day in day out' that you could 'do the job'? In the training college?

Were you guaranteed a job at the end of your training or subject to achieving all milestones?

If you'd done a bit of research prior to entering the college you may have not taken the risk you did.

Choices mate & the Golden Rule.

Having said that, if the bank teller training expert had been subject to ANY KPI's that happen in the real world, things may have been done years ago to rectify the situation Mr Twister describes.

Chaser, last flight I took No.3 was quoted.

To retort,
I demonstrated day in, day out, that I could complete the runs with no issues recognised or referred to by the instructors which suggests I was not experiencing any ongoing areas of concern. I can't demonstrate competency in a job I haven't experienced yet. All I could do was perform at a level relevant to the program presented to me.
Secondly, no a job was not guaranteed, milestone completion was required. Having said that, our contract included DTI, Non radar and Radar milestones. No mention of Combined Ops which was added to the official assessment in the meantime.
Thirdly, I did my research, the Academy commitment was apparently 42 weeks which then, upon satisfactory completion, progressed to a significant payrise in Field training. However, half way through training, the structure was changed which blew our time in the Academy to about 54 weeks. I had calculated (financially) for a 42 week drop in pay, the extra 3 months was a killer. Having been told I was progressing well, I resigned from my job to cash in on leave entitlements so we could financially survive the extra Academy time.
So, yes, that was a bad move as no job was guaranteed but it was not a result of poor planning or lack of research.
Not having a go Jack, just a little disappointed and bewildered.:\

Mr Twister,

Unfortunately, your experience falls within the "ASA works in mysterious ways ... expect the unexpected" mission statement.

You have obviously done your best ... they just weren't that into you.

However, I daresay you've learnt a lot and are better off for the experience. It's time to exercise your newfound skills , knowledge and abilities in a new endeavour.

Good luck, in whatever it turns out to be.

Mr Twister,

Sounds like grounds for appeal :ok:

Have exhausted that avenue. There will be no "rage against the machine" here. If they are as short staffed as people say and they are willing to cut people loose after proving their worth for the best part of 54 weeks, so be it. Life goes on. I just hope they get some results from those that got through to field training.

Mr Twister
 

In your assessment of legal options have you considered:

S28 of the Trade Practices Act - Deceptive & Misleading conduct; or
The new consumer protection rules about unfair contracts?

S28 of the TPA would be a very good way to go.....

UTR

Another college failure who can't conceive that they just couldn't do the job. Blame everything else. Cry me a river please. You need to just face up to the fact that you obviously were not up to scratch. As you yourself stated, we need controllers desperately - what with all the impending retirements and departures to other ANSP's - so do you really think that AsA would knock you back and show you the door if they thought you were capable? After all THEIR time and money invested over the duration. Seriously, reality check please.
For the record, I went through the college a couple of years ago (will not specify exactly when as I wish to remain anonymous) and have been endorsed for quite some time now. Let's be perfectly blunt, if you know what you are doing then the college phase is pretty bloody easy. I know many will disagree, but the egocentric people this job attracts unfortunately like to make mountains out of molehills; blow their own trumpet etc. It is not that hard seriously. Final field training, as thankfully you WON'T discover, is a big step up my friend. Clearly the people that actually know what they're on about!!!! assessed you as not being up to the mark. Move on :)
Also, I do sympathise with you in regards to having your course extended for an extra 12 weeks, with a family of five that is completely ridiculous and you deserve (and should pursue) some sort of compensation.

mrtwister:
Obviously you are hurting. However, it doesn't matter what was in your contract- that isn't the point. The academy is only part of the way to 'being able to do the job'. The combined ops change was a good thing, IMHO, reflecting a more realistic look at real ATC, both from the students perspective, and from an assessment perspective. Being able to pass modules in the academy is not going to guarantee you will pass field training, and combined ops was added after feedback and criticism from the field. It pulls some threads together. Previously, lots of trainees who passed the academy were getting chopped in field training. So, in all likelihood, YOU would have been in that boat (based on the hurdle you fell at). And that would've been even more traumatic- more time wasted, feeling closer to finishing etc.
That being said, you were given an insight into an extremely toxic organisation, so maybe you dodged a bullet? The changes to your course timings etc. was only a taste of what goes on. That anyone leaves one of the best jobs points to what a poor employer AsA is, let alone in the numbers they do. It is also one of the reasons for this thread (staff shortage)
I wish you all the best with whatever you do from here.

Another 3 Australians started in the Pit last month with two more being told to stand by for a start date. No staff shortages here. Apparently getting a pay rise next month. Was to be announced tonight at a big shin dig at the Address Hotel in the D-Town Marina but the RAK Ruler passed away so mournng period had the event cancelled.

They want another 30 bodies by mid next year is my mail for a resectorisation and expansion program. Keep an eye on flight global :ok:

Mr Chaser, you may have forgotten no 5......

Sometimes there's just no need to 'tell the punters' anything....

'All stns this is ****tybags 11, rolling Rwy 16 for dep to the south, climbing to ...'
It may not work at a 'primary' airport, but there are some places where it could be done...and it has been ....as you know I suspect....
:eek::eek:

Cheers :ok: