Twister, I'm sorry to hear of your situation but welcome to the world of ATC (in Australia at least). You're only as good as your last shift or check (in particular). Maybe an exaggeration but not a huge one. For better or worse that's what exams are about, perform or not.

Have to agree with ferris that the combined ops assessment is a step forward. But one instructor between two trainees is totally ****e.

The atc. College is a Basket case. You were warned in the atc forum many times.

I have to disagree with coneyisland, for me the college phase was tough tough tough. I'm glad they didn't do combined ops when I went through, because I would really have struggled.

However for me the final field training was relatively straightforward in comparison. It must depend on where you get posted.

It kind of says it all. And it's very easy to be smug on the other side. I was going to suggest that ... that attitude won't get you too far in your career ... but then I thought about it again.

Mr Griffo
Right up until two get a little close for media comfort ......... then BAM, in comes four eyes, an election, and political appeasement .... Voila

.... 24/7 remote surveillance approach services with less safe class E :D

Cost effective - bzzzz fail
Safer - bzzzz fail
More efficient - bzzzz fail

.. and the real kicker

What will that airspace become if the service is not available? - TIBA and, as per other TMA's, likely to be - a Restricted Area during for traffic metering

Yes, all in all a great idea when ATC's (that can hold endorsements) are becoming as rare as rocking horse poo :hmm:

Airspace management brought to you by four eyes on a soap box!

Funny thing is, this exercise proves the theory. It does not matter what the issue, as long as there is perceived to be an issue in need of fixing, four eyes will argue 'a' case, even if it is inconsistent and nonsensical! ;)

But hey, its no skin off our noses :ok:

There are significant numbers who work overtime to ensure airspace doesn't go TIBA, additionally they come in to ensure their mates aren't stranded alone on a console without assistance. I'd put both of those motivations above the individual financial one or as favour to ASA (which doesn't exist due to the vexatious employment relationship).

Despite what many project (especially ASA managers), most ATCs are highly dedicated and professional; they are unfortunately their own worst enemies (from an industrial point of view). There was some 100,000+ hours of overtime last financial year across the ATC group, spread that out over the operational workforce of around 800 and it's a sh!tload each. The vast majority of overtime was not due to sickleave, it was due to short staffing.

I can see the Press release(s) if there is even a hint of industrial action when negotiations begin early next year... Greedy, huge salaries, generous rostered time off, lots of annual leave etc. etc. Big highlight in difference between O/T worked and TIBA's in 2010 and 2011, sickleave spike... Industrial thuggery... holding a gun to the nation... etc...

Seen on the CANSO website:

"Airservices Australia is currently recruiting for 2011 training courses. We are actively seeking to recruit previously trained and rated Air Traffic Controllers."

However you have to be either an Ausie or a Kiwi. Do you think everybody will come back now?

That's where you guys can be prepared with a mitigation strategy and your own press releases. Unlike pilots you all work for the one company so surely you can get a degree of solidarity happening? The media and the media watching public hate two things; Unsafe and Government Ineptitude. Push those two points ruthlessly and ASA can whinge about your salaries and ann leave all they like without winning the media hearts-and-minds war.

Most people wouldn't want your job for quids, and even if they did there's a very small percentage of people with the correct mental wiring. It's not like most other aviation careers where there's a huge queue of eligible applicants who'll roger a cactus for the chance of a job. I don't see why your bargaining position is weak; few people are capable of doing the job and it takes 12-18 months to train the few competent candidates. What can they do to you? The ASA management Leviathan depends on Controllers for its very existance. Even foreign scab labour would take 12 months to train and it would give you the other valuable media weapon to play with; rampant Aussie nationalism.

If the controllers I know have a fault, it's a lack of inner nastiness and political guile that's necessary for fighting industrial campaigns against management snivellers who will do anything to meet their targets. That's the attitude you need to match, and helping your colleagues and preventing TIBAs (while honourable goals) only hinder you further. If one of you makes an error due to fatigue s/he'll wear it, not ASA. The Nuremberg Defence didn't work at Nuremberg and it certainly won't work against butt covering managers and media hysteria in the event of an incident.

Just my 0.02 pesos, but you can't fix anything with hope or righteous anger. Good luck. You do a great job.

The Agreement doesn't expire until September 2012.

Ok, cheers so negotiations begin around Feb 2012?

And will end October 2012 after ATC's are forced to take protected industrial action.

Wrong, negotiation will be lucky to even start by October 2012.
And then the blame game will begin, just in time for Xmas!

Then take P.I.A. the moment it is available not fluff around with warnings.

ASA caved the moment P.I.A. was voted for. Everybody knew they would. Remember that something like 96.5% voted for it last time around. ASA's industrial officers/negotiators (or whatever they are called) are gutless weasels who donot have the courage of their convictions. When push comes to shove, ATC's do.

Hey mods, I asked a specific question relating to the standard of service recently recieved whilst operating into MEL, I note with interest that it has disappeared...I would enjoy a response to my question, as ATC shortages also affect flightcrews, I also think it has some relevance to this discussion, even if perhaps this thread has turned into an industrial relations debate rather than an operational one.
Please either re-instate my post (question) or explain to me here in the public domain, why my post was "moderated" (removed)

:ok:

mrtwister, check your PM's

Coneyisland, your post #37 would be one of the most appalling things I've read on this forum. Did it make you feel good writing that ?

C-change
+1

@falconeasydriver: repost it here...

C-Change,

Why so appalling?? In answer to your question, writing it didn't give me an emotive response (good or bad) whatsoever. Until now that is. Knowing it is THE MOST APPALLING thing you have ever read on this ENTIRE forum makes me quite proud. I managed that mantle without even trying. Makes me think of what response I could achieve if I really let fly and expressed my opinions entirely. So thanks very much for the compliment :)

I was merely trying to express the fact that once again we have a trainee attempting to paint a picture that he/she was strung along for entire year (oh sorry, let's be factual - 54weeks) believing he/she was on top of it and more than capable of doing the job only to be brutally cut without warning at the last hurdle. Given my experiences, this is extremely hard to believe and to outsiders looking in, it puts the entire ab-initio training process in a very bad light.

Before all the AsA haters (and on that note people seriously get a grip and get a life. go back into the real world, get a real job and you will realise how great us ATC's have it!) start on me here, I am very aware of the flaws in the college. 1 instructor between 2 students is not ideal. A former bank manager who still reads ATM as Automatic Teller Machine rather than Air Traffic Management is not ideal. The shortage of instructors to train students is not ideal. That is just to name a few.

However, the instructors I dealt with in my time at the college, as well as those that have gone to or come back since, have all been fantastic. I have not seen one instance of instructors leading students on to believe that they are on top of things when they actually not. In fact it is has been the opposite. One very famous example is the student who, after yet another sim run leaving a lot to be desired, had "Get a Clue!" in easy to read capital letters (among other things) plastered on his/her feedback booklet. If that doesn't express to you that things aren't quite right, I don't know what does. (And don't start on the "oh what poor instructing technique" train.. sometimes you have to give them the hard cold facts straight up, considering he/she had been told repeatedly of the same error's he/she was making!)

During my time in the college I never once saw somebody get cut that didn't know they were struggling. The instructor's make it very clear if you happen to behind the 8-ball!!! They are most certainly not in the practice of giving false impressions to trainees. They are quite aware of the impact the course has on trainee's who have switched careers, taken a huge risk and are getting paid very little! Hence, my slight disbelief at mr. twister's claims!

For the record, I am not completely heartless and do sympathise with mr. twister and I am sorry he didn't get through to the field and an endorsement. Truly. We need everyone we can get! I also am disgusted with his poor treatment by the college in having the course extended for 12 weeks without any compensation. Mr. Twister, the very best of luck with your future endeavours.

Coneyisland,

If your going to quote me, at least get it right, I said that your post was ONE of the most apalling things, not THE most appalling.

I've re-read your original post and I still find it to be a heartless, un-sympathetic, kick in the guts, no matter how hard you try to justify your comments. He doesn't need to cop that from indiviuals such as yourself, who obviously did well on course.

C-Change,

You are correct. I did misquote you and I apologise. However, I don't apologise for my comments. I'm certain Mr. Twister wasn't on here searching for sympathy. Just posting his opinions/views in a forum that allows healthy expression and debate on such topics. I am simply presenting my own views/opinions and the other side of the coin so to speak.

If he takes offence at such from an anonymous person on an anonymous forum, well he clearly doesn't have the heart for ATC does he.

Either way, there is a serious dis-connect between what trainees out of the college are told and the reality of on the job training. I've seen 2 trainees out of the last 7 or 8 rate on our row.

Trainees are being sent back to the college multiple times after field training in attempt to get a rating. WTF? Why is this happening? It didn't happen in the past up until a year or two ago. On occasion trainees would be re-coursed after failing the college NOT THE FIELD.

The last two years of trainees attitudes have been lacking to say the least. It comes from the complete lack of respect that emanates from the bank teller trainer toward the ATC profession. If you hate ATC's that much why are you there?

I have to again disagree. After passing all the college milestones and progressing to final field training I was certainly never under any illusion that an endorsement would come to me on a silver platter. I was quite aware that the college phase was only the tip of the iceberg and I was about to make a massive jump in learning to handle live traffic in the real world. In terms of attitude, it was keep the head in the books and take in every piece of advice I could get from anyone with a rating. Those experienced guys/gals were fantastic and I knew I could learn plenty from them and they were to be respected. Anytime I copped criticism I didn't take it personally, just knew my OJTI was doing what was necessary to get me up to the required standard. So if I come out of the college with that sort of attitude I can't agree that the college breeds the horror trainee's I've come across. For example, the enroute trainee who was in Melb Twr on famil and told the ADC he would've done it differently. The trainee on famil with Melb Approach who subsequently fell asleep. The trainee who apparently was doing some famil on his/her sector up in Brisbane prior to commencing field training and decided he/she would reach over, grab the mouse and open a flight plan without asking the FPC plugged in at the time. The trainee that decided to leave the premises halfway through a sim check and not tell anybody.

I was told in no uncertain terms in the college that field training was a massive step up and require a big leap in the learning curve. That I should be taking every bit of advice from the experienced controllers in the field that know what it takes, have proven themselves day in day out for 10, 20,30 years etc. It's not the college or instructors that are responsible for trainees with bad attitudes - it's the trainee's themselves!!! Sometimes I think we excuse the individual too often and blame the organisation! In this case I don't think that's appropriate.

In regards to trainee's being sent back to the college multiple times or being re-coursed, I agree with you - it is a complete joke. If you fail, you fail. Move on please. But you and I both know the bank manager is trying to meet that magical (read, mythical) 100 trainees per year figure!

Sorta contradicting yourself a little, this appears to be the norm at the moment with a few exceptions. Heard trainee complaining today about the OJTI who un-plugged trainee for a mistake made. Said trainee doesn't appear to understand that it's the OJTI's licence that he's operating under.

Golden Rule :ok:

Trainee attitudes
 

I have found that trainee's attitudes have gone to the dogs ever since my course entered final field training;) We of course, were paragons of virtue:E

coneyisland are you Gen-Y by any chance?

divingduck,

FINALLY...........Somebody on the same page :D :E

Jack-Ranga... My point is that these are individual's who clearly have a poor attitude, but I seriously doubt you can attribute that to the college. I mean honestly does every single trainee have to be told "don't tell an experienced controller how to do their job", "don't fall asleep at the console whilst on famil" etc. etc. Seriously, this is not kindergarten - instructors are not there to tell adults how they should behave professionally. That's not part of the instructors job description. If you are looking for a scapegoat, the only possible place you can look is perhaps the recruiting process. How are such unprofessional people getting a gig in the first place? But I still blame the individuals themselves. The buck stops with them. It is not the college's fault. I, as well as every other person on my course, left the college with the utmost respect for experienced controllers in the field. And we were very well aware that it was their licence they were risking to train us.

ATC's are as much to blame for the 'toxic environment' that exists within AsA at the moment as the organisation themselves. Too many people that are bitter and twisted and push that onto every new trainee that comes into the Op's Room. It is a disgrace. Since I've said what I've said thus far, I may as throw some more fuel into the fire. The majority of ATC's need to take a reality check and go back to the real world. God help them if they continually worked five or six days a week. Forty plus hours a week. And if they had to stay back a couple of hours a week - no AD rates. Shock bloody horror! I heard one guy complaining in recent days that his new roster meant coverage was such that on his sector they now have to work 1.5hrs on 45 mins off. My god!! What an outrage! ATC's generally don't realise how lucky we have it. Go and step into the average punter's shoes and see what real working life is like!

Oh, and RYAN TCAD, not Gen-Y my friend. Not that I see how it would be relevant.

For the record, for all the coneyisland haters to come, I have zero designs on becoming management. I don't love AsA or Civil Air. I have a simple philosophy in regards to work... I turn up, keep 5 miles and 1000ft and I go home, whilst being paid much too generously. Oh and I try not to let the whinging get to me! (which it clearly has!)

Me thinks he doth protest too much.

How are such unprofessional people getting a gig in the first place?

Funny that! I was thinking the same thing when I read your last post coneyisland.

Unfortunately he makes an arrogant but accurate assessment. Yesterday I personally witnessed a recent LA graduate who was unable to correctly apply 30 RNAV... from memory that was what...lesson 2?

Two fantastic examples of the typical ATC. I am apparently the unprofessional/arrogant one because I do not subscribe to the 'I'm a controller so i'm pretty much God' theory. Just ruffles all your feathers because someone on the inside is prepared to come on here and paint a very different picture of how things are, instead of whining about it all. If believing I have a very lucky job with great conditions and get paid too generously to do it and that most of the people I work with are too self-important to realise that - makes me arrogant and unprofessional, then guilty as charged!

Hempy,

That sort of thing is very disappointing and when trainee's such as that make it to field training, you do have to question what the Learning Academy is up to letting that sort of poor standard of trainee slip through! That's the sort of thing we can reasonably attribute to the instructors and academy. Questions are entitled to be asked.

Riddle me this:

and:

Jeez, I don't mind impassioned argument. What doesn't compute is inconsistency.

you mean we're not gods:{

I wondered when I tried to walk across the swimming pool I fell in and got wet.

There was obviously 'a' reason that young chap didnt get put through to field training, I dont know what it is/was, if he feels there wasn't a reason then should appeal against the decision.

A quick 'show all posts' and some simple time lining puts coneyisland at about 15 minutes as an ATC (OK, maybe 2 years). Lets see how his perceptions change with time.:rolleyes:

Well paid? Oh spare me :eek: This is one of the many problems OZ ATC has. They do not know their true worth and are the ones ruining their own conditions year in year out and it is weak pricks like coneyisland that are the reason.

That is the funniest thing I have ever heard. It makes you naive. I smell management. Funny thing is there are heaps of controllers who have been with the company for less than 5 years leaving. Have fun on your doggos.

the yoof of today...
 

Rose tinting is obviously switched to the "on" position.:rolleyes:

Young fella...if you think you are getting paid too much, normal custom is that you keep quiet or someone may decide to take it away from you.:ugh:

I quite agree that compared to being a roofer or a labourer, ATCs do indeed get well paid.
If the roofer does a crap job, someone has to do it again, or if it passes initial muster and then fails, someone may get wet.
If you as an ATCO stuff up, you had better hope that everyone is listening to their TCAS...if they have it.
ATCOs get paid well for a very good reason...deal with it and stop trying to tell everyone that they should be lucky just to come into work every day.
I'm so over young pontificating controllers who "kiss up and sh*t down".

Answer this if you would...Do ATCOs get paid as much for working in OZ, Europe or the Middle East? Once you have done that research, ask yourself "why?"

To the guy that was chopped at the end of training...someone saw something that they didn't like. That is what they get paid for...making difficult decisions... it certainly wouldn't have been made on the spur of the moment or without serious thought.
If you have the right of appeal and you think you have been hard done by, appeal by all means. Remember that the college will have kept ALL reports filed on your progress, ask yourself do I really want to go there? Good luck with whatever path you choose.

Overpaid!!!!
 

Coney Island,
your reference to how easy we ATCs have it says a lot. Do you not get what we do every day?:ugh: In a previous life I was a tradie, and as such I worked Monday to Friday, no public holidays, no shift work, no medical required to retain my qualifications, no 6 monthly performance checks.
I have now been working shift work for almost 25 yrs, I have to pass regular medical checks and regular performance checks.

If I make a mistake, the results can be pretty bl***y stressful- both for how I feel about making a mistake and for the consequences that follow. I guess you probably haven't been stood down yet, might be worth talking to someone who has.
It would also be worth looking around to assess how old the more senior controllers are and how many there are of an advanced age- a lot of us don't stay or can't stay till the general retirement age, hence our remuneration needs to be sufficient to give us some options when we're put out to pasture.

PS I have looked at the conditions should I return to my trade, and I wouldn't necessarily be looking at a drop in take home pay.....

Check the tax returns of any good plumbing contractor.

Tell me you know a poor Turd Burgler :ooh:

ATC are underpaid, or if the pay is almost acceptable they are over worked and trashed by roster/call ins.

Comments from having 4 or more as personal friends.

ATC's are underpaid. If they were paid appropriately then there wouldn't be a shortage. Yes, it's really that simple! :ugh:

It's shortsighted management to not value your personnel assets correctly.

What i cant understand is the fact that you have to study down in ML on $30K odd before tax for a good year or so. That kind of limits people applying for this gig to being from ML and living at home? Or having an understanding partner or a great bank manager.

Next they'll be asking you to pay for your training.