.....just as well :ouch: :8

how things anyway DD?


TT

Cold and wet
 

Hey TT, harsh but fair comment!!

Winter is just showing it's head here...minus 3 this am and going for minus 4 tomorrow...almost enough to get the hat, gloves and scarf out of the box.

How's everything down there?

If you're not already aware the rules and process for negotiating agreements have changed recently. Even if you are a member you are not obliged to nominate the union as your bargaining representative, but can nominate yourself or another person to do so. Theoretically everyone covered by the agreement could nominate their own representative and they would all be entitled to attend negotiations. If you are not happy with civil air's previous negotiations you are legally entitled to nominate someone else to do it for you. If you wanted to, a group of you could get together and nominate someone to bargain on your behalf.

Both sides must bargain in good faith and the agreement must pass the 'better off overall' test.

http://www.fwa.gov.au/documents/fact...ents_guide.pdf

max1,

CI you showed your attiude to Mrtwister who bombed out in the College, go and reread your posts to him/her and tell us why your attitude changes at Final Field Training. You alternately place the blame at either the College or the trainee.

What was the follow up?

Well done, this is what we need.

Bullsh!t. We have a few dinosaurs, do it the right way and you can make a difference.

What was the follow up?This is where the negativity comes from. Most of the ALMs don't like 'issues'. Use the processes and MAKE them deal with it. "Evil happens when good people do nothing". From your posts I think you might be based in Melbourne?


Fair enough, but the 'negativity' has come about from the actions and words from above. One can only listen to so much ' Great place to Work' ' Work/life balance' 'Atmosphere of trust, mutual respect' when actions seem to dictate otherwise, without becoming jaded.

Wait until you have kids and 10/15 years of service and have put a long service leave request in 3 years in advance and have it knocked back 3 months out ( knowing that they never had any intention of letting you go anyway) and you have to explain it to your wife.
Wait until you are selected as the Number 1/2/3/4/ applicant for an advertised position but can't be released and number 7 from a non-operational position will be trained up to get your slot.
Wait until your immediate manager promises that if you take on extra admin/procedures duties for the year that you will get accelerated advancement or priority for a position only to find out from their superior that this will not be approved. See Plazbots post (Hows the ME and the bike-riding going, they're missing you at the Mt Cootha mens room. Haha.)
Listening to the gripes whilst tedious, are they valid?

It's perplexing when ASA make out that the controllers they have lost were going to leave anyway. A bit of trust and delivering what they promise would have kept them here.

CI, you seem to have a caricatured view of the Middle East. Have you ever been there or spoken to people who have? The people I know who are up there, and have been there, think it's alright.

The Middle East is not just alright. It's better. I speak from experience not hearsay.

etz,
It's not rocket surgery. As I said to a colleague the other day, it's better to work for Serco and be a number than to work for ASA, be a number, AND put up with the bs. The quicker ASA realise they are nothing without their people the sooner things will (may) start looking up. This 90's (80's?) profit at all cost rubbish management tenet is so outdated it's ridiculous. As a wise man once said "I take care of my staff and profit takes care of itself"..

..not too many wise men in the AWB :sad:

As stated before, a simple break down for Enroute dudes at the UAE ACC. I am a few weeks short of 1 year here for those wanting that perspective.

41 minutes door to door from place in Dubai Marina.
Dubai is like the Gold Coast minus the bogans.
I pay 7 OZ dollars for pints at the Barasti which is a $2 OZ dollar cab ride away.
I save what I used to get paid in OZ (plus what wife earns)
My eldest kid is half way through year 2 and excelling and would not even start year 1 until Jan 2011 in OZ (school aint cheap but see point above)
There is nothing I am not permitted to do here that I could in OZ.
You are an Air Traffic Controller and they respect the position.
That is pretty much it.

Having researched the position a number of times for a number of years, today's reality is far different to what ot was 10, 5 and even 3 years ago.

As always, don't take my word for it, it matters zip to me :)

Plaz...
 

Hey plazbot, you forgot....

standard rosters with plenty of time off
fairly generous leave allowance
the ability to plan leave months ahead (and not have it cancelled at the last moment)
Not getting rung up at home multiple times on days off
sufficient staffing
petrol at 30c per litre
not getting stood down for bullsh!t reasons

and on and on...

Absolutely. I could write probably another hundred points but I think, lifestyle, beer, kids education, family opportunity, beer and Job staisfaction are the big ticket items that worry most people making the decision. I am a BRisbane boy through and through and thought that I would struggle after the shine of a new job wore off but low and behold, I was wrong. Gotta scoot as I have a snow board lesson this arvo, gotta get in practice for the two weeks in Saas Fee in Feb (already approved and booked).

Oh, rumour (straight from the conerned person's mouth) is that there are more starting here (and Germany) very shortly from groups AsA is extremely short staffed on.

who did the naughty over mildura? i guess the cheese is lining up for asa. 2 in the news witin a year. can some one paste the news

He was fairly newly minted & is no longer an ATC. Bugger the cheese, it's the vacuum in between that bothers me.

Mikk13
 

Is this the one you were asking about?

Airliners on collision course over Mildura

hey thats it!

This lays it on the government.

How Airservices Australia nearly killed 443 people – Plane Talking

Where is the union in this? Why no stories in the newspapers or TV.

(my bolding)

So deficiencies were identified and yet this person was rated without the deficiencies being fixed?

What has CASA had to say if ATSB has made a finding on this?

What has ASA done to ensure that this doesn't happen again?

Could it be that ASA are recruiting people they know will comply with 'their' behavioural model rather than people who can do the job?

There is an appalling lack of supervision of junior (and senior) controllers, my ALM is two aisles away. Could it be that teams worked? Yeah, they worked but it took extra staff, so that aint gunna happen :ugh:

Mainstream media has picked it up.

Qantas jet and Emirates jumbo were on collision course | Herald Sun

Airliners on collision course over Mildura

I pay $3.50 for a pint at Barasti. Thanks to EPC. Cabs about $8.
Work 11 minutes.
Petra next week. Switzerland the week after.
Blah Blah Blah.
Changing employers is like being on some mood lifting drug.

Why does everyone always ask "where is the union"?

They are right there clambering for media attention with the rest of us.

Do you think you can compete with a bottomless bucket for spin?

I agree with Plazbot, divingduck and etz. Folks, if you're not happy in oz; check the sandpit out as an option. Its like living on the Gold coast, you get to do the job without the b/s you get in oz, and you can do everything here you could there. The big perks are that this is probably (and no, I haven't researched every ANSP) the best ATC roster you'll ever work in your life, and if you can manage to spend what you earn, well good luck to you.

I love that I can go to work and enjoy what I do, and then go home and live my life...

Good luck to everyone on the coal face in oz. There's no doubt that there's still major issues, and the unfortunate thing is that (what I saw) it leeches into every aspect of your life, which makes it hard to appreciate work.

If anyone ever asks me; I tell them that my relatively short stint as an Air Traffic Controller was the best job I ever had. What a blast.

Thank fcuk I am no longer in the game. How anyone could work in such an environment, with such a jaded, disgruntled, caustic, whingeing bunch of people is beyond me. We all have a choice people. I'll repeat that one more time; we all have a choice. I made the tough decision (at the time) to leave a job I really enjoyed to expand my horizons and I haven't looked back.

If you don't like it, do something about it. Don't you guys get tired of bitching about your work, your conditions, your employer, your management, your CEO? Do something about it. Expatriate, leave the job, or put your hand up and be a manager or CEO.

I know several of you out there (Melbourne) who love the job and the role for what it is and make the best of it. They're more than happy to tell you what a great life they have and how little they do for their lifestyle. Hats off to them. I never hear them carrying on like you lot.

Plazbot, I enjoyed reading your list of 'good things' about the Middle East. I have spent my fair share of time there with my work, so I have to challenge you on one point - There is nothing I am not permitted to do here that I could in OZ. Come on mate, there are some things you can't do in the Middle East ...:) Or at least if you do them, you'll end up in a prison!

Breathe everybody - just breathe!.

Breathe,

With all due respect, you mention you were not in the job long and I would suggest you are of the 'recent' generation anyway. The one thing everyone who 'carries on' here shares in common is an honest love of the job. By leaving after a short stint I am guessing I know why, because if you are suggesting ATC's do 'little' for what they earn you are showing genuine ignorance of both the responsibility and pressure of the profession. Work a busy Friday afternoon shift during thunderstorm season on a procedural sector, throw in the odd com failure etc, and you walk out knowing you've earnt every cent. This is day to day, not exceptional. Maybe add some IFER, VFR lost on top, (god forbid) engine failure....and then add it to the fact that you are on the rear end of 8 straight, with a rostered OT doggo tomorrow..

The entity that is ASA switched from being a public service to a government business enterprise in 1995, but they really didn't become the bureaucratic behemoth they are until the transition to TAAATS in 1999. There was a concerted effort leading up to transition on 'cultural change'....we were no longer about people and safety and service, but profit and safety (in that order). Those career ATC's who remember what the organisation once was and compare it to todays iteration feel that it is there absolute God Given Right to be a "jaded, disgruntled, caustic, whingeing bunch", but don't worry, they are a dying breed and one day soon ASA will have 2 centers filled with next-gen career changers who will do 5 years and move on, and the experience drain won't even be a concern because technology will surely save the day...

At the end of the day though, I fail to see why any of it matters to you..as far as I can see the only people who would be concerned about people whingeing about ASA management would be ASA management....

Hempy

No, not of the recent generation - been out over a decade (whatever generation that makes me?).

I told you why I moved on, so not sure why you're 'guessing you know why'; pretty straightforward I thought. Not because it was too hard, too easy or unbearable management - just wanted to learn about other aspects of aviaton. I had the same love for the job you speak of - I stated that in my first line. We all have a choice. So please respect mine to move on.

Thanks for the example scenario of tough days/weeks - I had my fair share, so nothing earth-shattering there. I held the same responsibility and experienced the same pressures you do so to say I am ignorant of them is, well, ignorant - but whatever you reckon. I experience much more stress, pressure and reponsibility now than I ever did as an ATC - it's just different.

Why does it matter to me? It doesn't. But as an ex-ATC and still in the industry with many friends in ASA, I have an interest in all aspects of the domain. I'm not ASA management and I wasn't aware you had to be in ASA to post an opinion on this forum.

Breathe everybody; just breathe.

An Apology
 

It seems I must apologise for my previous expressions of personal opinion regarding the fact that I believe the majority of my fellow Australian ATC's are whingers, moaners and just downright self-involved!

After the actions and words of Spanish controllers over the past week it would appear that these are common traits amongst controllers worldwide! :}

It is embarrassing and I apologise to the rest of the aviation world for my narrow-minded colleagues.

Breathe - I don't think I'll be too far behind you in calling myself an ex-ATC!!

Coney Island,
After that last post I hope so.

But I don't really believe you are an ATC anyway. You sound like a certain type we do see in the building from time to time however.

Did you even read this about what is happening in Spain before typing?

http://www.ifatca.org/press/061210.PDF

..........................................whatever :cool:

CI.
You are a twit (maybe I spelt that wrong)
Read their grievances before you make a post. :=

I suggest you go for it!

Ok, keep thinking that mate. I can't categorically prove whether I am or aren't really can I so what does it matter. But I, like you, turn up every day, read a multitude of pointless TLI's, DCN's, Group Circular's etc. Read a novel's worth of NOTAM's and then plug in and for the most part, process routine traffic. Whether or not you choose to believe I'm an ATC is up to you pal.

rennaps,

I just spent 2 hours reading the Spanish ATC thread prior to posting. I'd also viewed that IFATCA document prior.
An unannounced strike was still a disgusting course of action.

oh, but wait, I should feel pity for them now because they "are working at gunpoint".... haha what a joke

CI,

I am pretty sure I speak for the real air traffic controllers, not to mention the sane people of the world, when I invite you to go **** yourself sideways.

P-Dubby,

Getting a little touchy over my comments are we pal. You sensitive poor bloke. Boxes of tissues are located on the top of the console you dear old soul. Help yourself to as many as you need - it sounds like you are definitely a *ahem* "real controller". :rolleyes:

So C.I., The general theme of your complaint is that we have it pretty good for what we do, i.e. processing routine traffic... Maybe you are right, but you know what - we get paid what we do because 5% of the time when the $#it hits the fan, you are expected to handle it!

Would you be happier if we all got a basic wage, and only got 'big bucks' when the proverbial did strike! Maybe Flight crews should also only get a basic wage and get the 'big bucks' when Nancy Bird decides to strike! Maybe my sister-in-law (Anaesthetist) should get a basic wage and only get the 'big bucks' when the the patient goes into cardiac arrest! And maybe you should just STFU!

And don't put me in the category of the disgruntled overpaid ATC that needs to look outside to see how good he has it. I have been an ATC for 6 years... Before that a cop for twenty. I know about the other side of the fence...

Yepp, 100% correct, in fact you are actually level headed and realise we do get paid the "big bucks" and should be appreciative for it. I've seen the wages for QLD, VIC & NSW police officers recently. What they get paid is a disgrace and wrong. Give me the work and conditions of an ATC anyday as opposed to what you had to put up with for a pittance in your previous career.

Although people apparently don't believe I'm an ATC, I have no trouble, however, believing you were a copper with wonderful, intelligent quotes like this
Very typical of the local constabulary haha.

Trolls.....
 

sighs...CI, welcome to the world of my "ignore" list...

You missed the point , like you do everytime...

There are many many mundane jobs in the world, and the employees concerned get a minimum wage. There are also quite a few jobs in the world, where the work, on average, is mundane - however, when 'the proverbial hits the fan', you are expected to cope with it and get the job done in a professional and competent manner. If you don't, people die - that's the difference...

P.S.: You quoted me incorrectly - I didn't have quotations marks... :ok:

Oh you precious fools, I give up. Your ignorance and apparent lack of comprehension of the English language is no longer tolerable...

Correct Use of quotation marks:

"Oh you precious fools, I give up. Your ignorance and apparent lack of comprehension of the English language is no longer tolerable..."

Incorrect use of quotation marks:

Correct use of quote function (without quotation marks):
I may be precious, but I know my grammar - FOOL!

Chickoreee Autocat!!!

This is great. It's like watching a bitch fight between a couple of ladies. I keep watching on the off chance they might kiss.:E

Uh oh. Wasn't this in an area where Airservices always has enough staff.

Mystery near miss involving Qantas 767 near Melbourne Airport – Plane Talking

Thread Code 7500...
 

You're almost right, idb, when you say that it is "like watching a bitch fight between a couple of ladies."

But for the comments of coneyisland, and the reactions to them, this thread would continue to explore the very real and potentially grave situation presented by the lack of adequately trained and qualified Air Traffic Controllers employed by my former employer of 26 years, Airservices Australia.

The level of professional respect shown by my current employer, Serco, is streets ahead of the level of professional disdain shown by Airservices - from the very top down - and it is only one reason for my decision to join the exodus of ATCs from Australia.

Add to that the salary, the staffing levels, the lack of call-outs on days off, the predictable roster, and the availability of quick, cheap and easy travel, and you'll see why I'm over here with quite a few other Aussies.

Should anyone be interested in any specific information on the working conditions that are currently enjoyed by Dubai ATCs, drop us a line, and I'll pass on what I can.

I usually treat flamebaits like car crashes and the afore-mentioned bitch fights - it's best to just turn away, ignore them and concentrate on what's really important.

Ooroo...