Pilots of Australia - time to unite - Meeting Aug 23
 

To assist us in hiring the correct room size, please RSVP by emailing [email protected] or call 02 8307 7777 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 02 8307 7777 end_of_the_skype_highlighting.

More information to follow.

All Australian Pilots that are not flying at this time, regardless of AIPA, AFAP or non-union membership are encouraged to attend.

This will affect ALL Australian Pilots at some time during their career - so we need your support

And good luck to you with your work here.

With the looming global shortage of experienced pilots now is certainly the time to become one cohesive and strategically intelligent group.

However I sadly suspect that such efforts will inevitably become bogged down with "you did this to me back then so I'm going to ignore your plight now and get what I can for me, now" mentality that has so plagued our industry for the past 20 or so years.

Yes the AFAP and AIPA had issues way back when they split. Yes some mucked it up for everybody. Yes DJ and J* pilots undercut Qantas salaries (which should have been the lowest datum at the time). Yes Qantas pilots were arrogant in assuming they were better than everybody else and impervious to attack. But for crying out loud isn't it time to get over all of this now and just move on?

Instead of sniping and bleating like spoilt little schoolyard brats is it inconceivable that we for once actually exhibit the intelligence we so pride ourselves on and use this constructively for our own collective benefit?

If ever there was a time to act it is now but having watched PPRune babies for what 12-13 years now, I'm not holding my breath.

In any case, good luck with the meeting.

I reckon outhouse size minus dunny should suffice Ian!:ok:
Should have convened on the 24th August. :=

A nice idea in principle but the day a QF Captain turns up to support/help a jetstar pilot will be the day hell freezes over I think. (but i hope i'm wrong)
Good luck though.

Whilst the same could be said visa versa, I think that the issues at play here effect FO and SO/CFO ranks at the various airlines...

Would a QF FO show up to support his colleagues from other airlines and his own career progression? Damn straight!!! And if this effects you, then you should show up as well!

People, its time to move on from QF vs J* and whatever other injustice you can come up with.

We are being attacked on multiple fronts and our lack of unity is the reason this has continued to happen over and over again. There has been a steady decline that has continued and does not look like its going to slow. The Jetstar/PB/Jetconnect saga is just another in a long list.

Our industry is at best another 5 to 10 years away from becoming totally unbareable.

We've had:

ASIC police
High Viz police
Jump Seat police
DOTARS/CASA ("pay for this pay for that" - "do this do that")
Security police
Air No Services and all costs
Companies opening other companies to bypass EBA conditions
Crap/Ancient navaids/facilities everywhere
Drug and Alcohol carry on

Have a look at whats next: Nekkid, irradiated, and very annoyed – Plane Talking

This is utter bull**** and it needs to be stopped.

If I'm in Sydney on that day I will attend.

As a 89er, can I beg, plead, cajole, to you all TO GET TOGETHER regardless with whom you fly, and STICK TOGETHER, united you are unbeatable, divided,up to sh%t. If 89 does nothing else, then us old blokes would like to see you young blokes, stick it up em.There is NO EXCUSE for non Australian pilots to fly our skies, we blokes had to wear it, and it was soul destroying, (and still is) let em in, and the flood gates will open, there are enough young Australians coming up to fill the ranks, as there has always been, it is their right to fill my shoes, your shoes, without the threat of OS pilots taking up the slack.

What can those of us who will not be in Sydney do to show support? Will it also be possible to get a summary of what is covered?

Do you actually know any Qantas Captains or do you just run with the stereotype that you've been fed from PPRUNE or others (who in most cases also got the stereotype from PPRUNE or others)? :ugh: :rolleyes:

In any event, You're wrong. This QF captain will be there. :}

It's in everybody's best interests to be there. Pay is being cut all over the place due to these low paying low cost carriers offering crap salaries. Nobody is immune unless everybody unites! IMHO

This QF captain will be there.

This is important.

I'll do my best to make it to Sydney to be there.

This is bigger than J*.

This QF captain would be there, but I'm not in a position to be.
I would like to know what I can do to help?

STOP!!!!! and think....
 

Keg said :

There has been a lot of slandering backwards and forwards on this site for years now. 89, DJ, QF, PB, JQ.....


STOP and think about those pilots you know in other outfits than your own. Do those people that you personally know really fit with the stereotype that is fed on sites like this one? In most cases the answer is NO!


This issue is of BIBLICAL proportions to the future of OUR industry. Particularly for any SO or FO out there who ever wants a command on decent conditions.

If we don't stand together now, we slide one rung further down the ladder... HOW FAR DO WE LET THIS GO?

So if you, or your colleagues, can make the united meeting, PLEASE show your support and turn up for the future that we all worked hard to achieve.

Please step up people.

If your a GA driver, REX , QF link, RFDS, QF, JQ, VA, VB, any aspiring pilot. You will be welcome, so please turn up it will make a big difference.

Bring paper bag with eye holes cut out..unmarked van with tinted windows over the road will carry Qantas HR staff practicing zoom lens photography:\

I have (18 months ago) completed a contract in India as TRE/TRI on the B777 where pilots with 175 hrs TT are in the right hand seat of a B777, B744, A320, B73NG.... (Yes: one hundred and seventy five hours total time: going from C152 directly to these aircraft. First twin is/was these aircraft). And, many with 1500 hrs TT, fraudulent hours and fraudulent exam results to go directly into the LHS of these same aircraft. This is WRONG on all accounts through no fault of their own but due the incomprehensible corruption in training and standards - basically criminally negligent in my opinion.

As a result of this unsurmountable corruption and despicable standards I resigned and now am back in the States....

My point? In Oz you need upwards of 2000 hrs TT, 500 hrs (minimum) twin PIC, turboprop time, etc, etc, etc for the right to hopefully interview for an SO position with QF, or FO with DJ, JQ, etc... More realistically around 3-4000 hrs TT.

So, to open your doors to foreign pilots is just plain DUMB.

Recruit the pilots with 500-1000 hrs TT flying in GA. Train them PROPERLY and THOROUGHLY and there is no reason why any shortage cannot be met. Then if need be recruit with fewer hours experience, and so on. If the GA scene needs the pilots then and only out of desperation look outside. Again, LAST resort. There are countless spoilt brats in countries like India screaming from the rafters with a fresh CPL, rallying the government that they shouldn't have to fly "props" as such jet jobs are their birth right and to get rid of the experienced expat pilots. Get those spoilt brats to Oz for the GA scene and I trust they'll learn humility and even become "pilots" unlike the unsafe fools they are now.

I have flown with a few expat Aussies. They are head and shoulders above the standards of many other nations, due to that GA experience.

So, Oz aviation needs pull its head out of its ar$e, realise that while these GA hours are golden, they can be replaced with effective and non-compromising training. Hang on, this may mean bean-counters investing in their pilots and staff. Therein lies the problem.

What more do these money hungry ba$tards need? Pilots are already paying for the endorsement, being bonded, etc!? I know, foreign pilots undercutting the T&C's...... Look at what CX have done with their SO recruitment but for one example!!

Stick together. See what you already have, protect it and I pray you do not let this happen.

Good luck.

Maybe a AFAP representative should sent a mass email to their members whom do not patrol the pprune or a member of AIPA.

Ill be there!

TopTup you have an insight into what the future might hold if this rot isn't stopped. I suggest you contact this man:

By email: [email protected]

Recently he stood up and called a spade a spade when it came to Anthony Albanese's great ideas regarding jump seat usage.

Another option is:

Contact Four Corners


Its time for AIPA AFAP VIPA TWU and who ever else to say enough's enough.

Is this something that a lowly GA driver/instructor should attend?

Im a Grade 1 who trains foriegn airline cadets. While they graduate with CPL/IR, you wouldnt call them aviators in any sense. The thought of masses of low time foreigners of dubious standard flying domestic in Oz horrifies me.

Besides that, if airlines can hire foriegn nationals, on half the pay. What jobs will there be left for Aussies comming up through the ranks.

Aussies for Aussie Jobs.

This QF F/O will be there. :ok:

No need for a paper bag. QF HR are as disengaged as we are.

I cannot believe that people in this company believe its in there best interest to sit by watch it unfold. Couldn't agree more that enough is enough. God if i knew this crap was on the horizon I would have stayed at my crappy low paying regional job in the U.S. At least there there is a sense of brotherhood, decency and a back bone. Seniority = Safety. It is the only thing that separates us from those 250 hour pilots in asia, and the so called qualified CAptains.

The culture that has unfolded in Australia is just down right disgraceful.

Awesome, It's finally happening.

United we (pilots) stand, divided we fall.

I'll be there :ok:

Great thread,

Thanks for the support guys,

I will be there

Jetstar FO

Thanks guys!
 

Hi guys and gals, student pilot here, and this could change my future! id nearly accepted the fact that my future as a professional airline pilot was never going to be a glamerous one but this thread has given me new hope. I often engage in discussions with people who know little about the appalling conditions the pilots, whom they trust with there lives regularly, work in. to fund my flying training i have been working as a rail attendant and to make my point i tell these people that i earn more pouring **** coffee than my mate who is a Q400 FO for sunstate. this is unnacceptable. I hope i can be there to help represent those who will shortly be comming up the ranks chasing our dreams. I will see what i can do but if i cant make id like to know if there's anything i can do to help this cause and make my future brighter.

The problem is we all love flying too much. The big guns know this and think they can push us around. But this is our second chance to stand united and show them that we are one of the biggest assets in the aviation industry. We are smart. Lets not let em beat us again. This is OUR game!

About time
 

It would be hilarious if the whole outsourcing idea by Jetstar backfires on them after this meeting. Good on AIPA!! Good for the Australian pilot profession. Everyone from other airlines are watching!

Man I hope this works. I know Dash 8 pilots who have slogged their guts out for years and years who literally get paid less than the load controller who has been in the industry ten minutes and saunters out to the aircraft to give them the load sheet.

ozgrade 3,

EVERYONE is welcome to attend........regardless of union membership, job status, hours etc...so come along :ok:

this SO will be there as well. Lets get this rubbish sorted:D

Actually, now that I think about it, I know A320 pilots who get paid less than them too.

Dont forget to include the baggage handlers in the list of higher paying!!

I live in the west so won't be able to make it. I would however like to voice my support in anyway I can and would love to know the outcome of this meeting.

Good job fellow aviators. Stick together.

Perhaps we need follow up meetings in Melbourne, Brisbane, Perth etc to get a collective show of real numbers. This is a national issue and it needs to go national.

A bit of a mouthful xjt given your details say you're from the States. It all started in the US and then Canada and then Europe.
That is what a big part of the 1989 pilots dispute in OZ was all about. De-regulation was coming and AFAP wanted a higher wages base for OZ airline pilots a. because it may have been the last chance and b. because it would have been a higher figure from which to start taking pay cuts. Pity abut the tactics and the result though.
I do hope that this endeavour produces a much better result than that.

This QF Captain will be there.

I'll be there, any other corporate drivers showing???

The next VB pilot roster starts Aug 23. Hopefully everyone who is free on that day will be there.

There is no doubt this issue is the most imminent threat to VB pilots at the moment.

Ask yourself. Who is going to fly the 767s when they arrive and on what terms and conditions? What happened with the 777? What happened with international flying on the 737 and on what terms and conditions?

No one wants to stop a company from starting another airline under different AOCs. But none of us should allow them to farm out our jobs at lower and lower wages especially if they are being off shored.


You may be happy with your terms and conditions in general but like all airlines in this country these conditions are not protected by scope clauses or alter ego clauses in your EBA that require your airline to hire onto the same EBA and seniority list if they own or operate under a different AOC.

I'm in for Melbourne! Maybe we can get the ball rolling for one now?

A very quick (and publicly) vote of NO CONFIDENCE in Senior Management, AND Flight Ops Dept, will have two effects. It would get a reaction from the QF Board, as well as CASA. To carry its weight would be to get Flighties & Engineering brethren to assist us in such a vote, as it will carry more weight.

Food for thought.

Bruce Buchanan (REG) is the saviour of our industry..:ok:

He has single handedly taken the AIPA membership at Jetstar from 20 to over 300, and growing in the last 18 months.

And now, he is seeing us unite as we have never before.

Keep up the good work Bruce, the rate your going we'll have AIPA/AFAP/VIPA and the TWU all having a BBQ on the same day with all OZ pilots there.

I also think it's great idea to have these gatherings at ML and BNE, we need to keep the momentum building before we are all working for even lower wages.