I may be new here but I am not new to the industry.

Australian pilots going overseas to fly for low cost carriers did reduce the terms and conditions of legacy carriers in those countries. If you do not know this then I suggest that it is you whose ignorance stands out like dogs...

OK then Clockwork Doll,

I think you are being a little disingenious with your argument now.

Since you are so well informed, tell us;

Did the pilots that you speak of take jobs off the locals and get paid less than the locals did for doing the same job?

Were they employed in an underhand/devious manner to get around the immigration rules?

27/09

I suspect Clockwork Doll is a management mole. New handle gives him away like dogs balls. This is the “modus operandi” of management to try and divide and conquer. We have seen it done to death and quite frankly it is getting boring. Just ignore him/her. The fact is most Aussie pilots that have gone overseas to work don’t work for LCC’s period. We generally work for full service carriers in countries that don’t have a ready supply of their own pilots and are therefore forced to employ foreign pilots. This thread is about Aussie pilots working in Australia and any distraction brought up by the likes of Clockwork Doll is just that a distraction to try and divide you.

Everyone please be on the lookout for moles like this that will post here distracting arguments to try and divide you. This is management SOP to divide and conquer. Please ignore them and above all STAY FOCUSSED.

The good thing is there is a common thread now, Virgin being shat over by Bluebird, QF by Jetconnect, Jetstar (well its been a consistent shat over since they started) , the main thing is you realise stupid management live to shat you over! Its pretty simple really. anyone who trusts management these days deserves to be shat over. I remember in the good times lots of employees and co workers raving about their employers, even then I waited for the shat to commence! by the way I said shat with the a representing an i so it wouldnt be censored!

PS I am in WA during the meeting I cant make it unless I go sick! :}

Why does the word S#@B and CLOCKWORK DOLL come into my head at the same time? AS a 89er, let me tell you what to expect. You will get the weak, you will get the brown noser, you will get the sneerer, you will get the one who bats for both sides, (depending who he or she is with) But if you stick together you are UNBEATABLE, UNITED YOU STAND, DIVIDED YOU FALL, DONT EVER FORGET IT. This is your chance to stand together, pilots all of you, company irrelevent, don't let the bastards bring you down, you live in a democracy, use it, and don't let what happen to us, happen to you, YOU TAKE CONTROL, THERE ARE THREE GROUPS THAT CAN BRING THIS COUNTRY TO A GRINDING HALT. (1) PILOTS (2)TRUCKIES (3) TRAINDRIVERS we have all seen the consequences of that, and the results are dreadful, but instead of worrying about 89 and what could happen, YOU ARE POWERFUL PEOPLE, don't abuse it, but use it, if what is going on is wrong, then flex your muscles, TOGETHER, companies then have to listen, as does govts. THIS IS YOUR CHANCE, GO FOR IT!

if only everybody could use such logic...but unfortunately there are way too many naive and "S'**B types out there.....

sadly, I see A. Le Rhone's prediction has come true ..

Pssssst AJ

I think they're on to us!
Request reinforcements - stat.

BB

Wow, socialism is on the rise.

I trust none of the "workers" on this thread wear clothing manufactured in Vietnam or shoes manufactured in Thailand. That would be hypocrisy.

This meeting will do little more than highlight to all involved just how many competing agendas there are amongst pilots.

It will be a hoot.

Pssst clockwork doll, just remember mate, we can do your job overnight, it'll take at least a year for you to do ours and then I expect you'll be a gimp. Supply and demand mate, plain and simple. Countries don't have enough pilots, Aussies get hired. Not the case here. We have truckloads of pilots. So why hire from outside? To sort T&Cs.

Stick together people!!

I was concerned this thread would degenerate into slagging and so far it hasn't really, which has to be a first!

The essential point remains the same: Experienced, quality, Professional Pilots are globally in shorter supply now than ever before - although in Aus we can't see that because traditionally we have more supply here than demand. It is time that reality was used to our advantage because god knows the flip-side has been used against us by ruthless managers for many years.

Airlines globally for years have loved Aussie pilots because they have high operational standards and by and large assimilate reasonably well. They usually imbue the airline with strict operating skills and do not undercut locals by any means, in fact they have often been paid more. There have rarely been double-standards in this regard as stated incorrectly by a new-poster here. Foreign airlines either simply couldn't get enough locals or realised that the extra expense of hiring expensive expatriates had other operational benefits.

What JQ are trying is a new low. It comes from the concept that a "Pilot" is a commodity like say a hamburger - as long as they have a licence then seen one seen them all. Why as an airline manager can't I just go and buy a cheap commodity from say the Philippines or Botswana. As that manager I can also harness the 'politically correct' theme to suggest anybody who opposes my plan is just racist and that "you greedy Aussie pilots are just featherbedding" (although what exactly you're featherbedding I don't know because globally speaking Aussie T&C aren't so good, but probably still better than Botswana).

But not all pilots are the same. Be it politically correct or not, pilots from many countries just aren't trained to the same standards as others - that's not racism but just fact. I've personally flown with folks of so many different nationalities and from all over the world and they have almost to a man been great but they have all had proper training and employ strict operating discipline. They wouldn't have got into the airline without it and they weren't employed just because they had a licence.

And now most of these guys are in the likes of Emirates or Ethihad etc and doing well and good on them. Before the GFC airlines were desperate for pilots and even pilots from countries with sometimes questionable safety records (e.g. Indonesia and the Eastern Bloc) were being snapped-up by hungry low-cost carriers to the degree that flag-carriers (like PAL) were complaining that they were being bled-dry of pilots and would have to cancel flights - interestingly this has again happened just last week.

So back to our scenario and how it is fought. The Colgan case proved that an accident forced US Congress to legislate against unscrupulous airline managers employing lowly-experienced aircrews because they are unsafe. That must be one basis of our stance.

The other basis needs to be handled more discretely and that is that many licence-issuing countries just don't have the same standards as we do here. Yes pilots here have texted and messed-up A320 missed-approaches but on the whole standards are still way better than so many other countries and airlines. For short-sighted managers to go and gobble-up pilots from those countries (which as discussed previously is really just a tactic to try to pay lower wages and thus get themselves bigger and bigger bonuses) would be a direct threat to the Australian traveling public. This needs to be illustrated.

And the best PR winner in this regard is the Garuda 737 prang that killed the Aussie journalists. Even the government at the time stated that other countries don't have the same standards as we do. It's a fact and can be used to our benefit.

And finally, although I am aware I sound totally paranoid, as an 89'er I would have to beware of trolls on sites such as PPRuNe. Social networking has become such a powerful tool but in this case posts are anonymous. What better way for a full-time industrial relations person to undermine new-found pilot unity than spend a quick 5 mins on a site such as this feeding in seeds of doubt to undermine a timid and nervous group who have clearly had enough but aren't united.

That of course doesn't mean differing ideas should be howled down with tirades of childish abuse as is so often sadly the case but it does mean we need to be a little observant. Your unity is not something that airline managers want and their bonuses are directly impacted by this.

Think of the big picture and take advantage of the global pilot shortage and the fact that Aussie pilots are a sought-after commodity. Convert bitching energy into something tangible and you are on a winner.

Once again I apologise for taking so many lines to get my longwinded point across.

I can't make the meeting either but support the endeavour to stop the rot. It would be a great day to see the reps from all unions and airlines standing side by side- A real turning point in aviation. Hopefully the media turn up to promote the issues our industry face. Best of luck.

REG, you will rue the day you woke up all smug and released this FSO. You have f***ed over your employees for the last time. Let's all hope this brings about your downfall. What is even more appalling is that their own Chief Pilot and Standards Manager support Reg's actions.

You don't get to be Chief Pilot or Standards Manager for nothing!

Therein lies the problem. Plus the AFAP has no real technical objection.

I'm all for unity, but considering that everyone is in universal agreement that outsourcing our jobs is unacceptable, what exactly does anyone hope to acheive by this meeting?

Will the media be present? Will politicians be present? Does this meeting have the union backing required to educate the aforementioned and provide financial and logistical clout needed to mount a campain against this evil?

At this time, during an election campain, every union, association, and two bit lobby group with an agenda is advertising like hell to gain public attention and political favour. So during this golden oportunity, where is our lobby group, union or association? Where is the advertising campain? The silence is deafening. :ugh:

Again I applaude the sentiment here, but the fact is that unless management pilots and the AFAP management get behind this then it'll be like p!ssing into the wind.:(

Ps. Happy to be called a pissant as long as someone comes up with an adequate word for those few individuals who are supposed to represent the many, that have the power to effect change, but have already decided there will be no action. :yuk:

"Again I applaude the sentiment here, but the fact is that unless management pilots and the AFAP management get behind this then it'll be like p!ssing into the wind.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/sowee.gif"

Exactly correct

Not really. This is about making flying cheaper for the public. Airlines have been doing this since the 1920s.
You'll have to do better than that. Aussie pilots make mistakes and have accidents too. If you think you can just point to one or two foreign accidents to make your case then you have lost before you have begun.

I agree that pilot standards depend largely on where the pilot was trained and flew but it is not fellow pilots that you are making your pitch to. For this "campaign" to have any success, it must have some appeal to the general public (via the media).

I respectfully suggest that you need to put more work into the case.

I think you fail to understand the role of these individuals. Their role has nothing to do with industrial relations or protecting aussie jobs.

Their concerns would be about the standards of the foreign pilots - but at the same time, would be strongly of the belief that the checking and training system will weed out those unsuitable.

Matter of Principle Here (Being missed by some)

You should not have any two people, in the same country, doing the same job in every way, but on different terms and conditions.

No member of the public would support this.
No politician would support this.
No Australian should support this !
Why our chief pilot supports it, I don't know?

This is not about more money, but maintaining what we have.

Two tier terms and conditions is simply wrong !

Don't let it come to Australia, and get rid of it in Christchurch NZ !

In a word `HorseSh!te'

Read the history of what happened during a certain Australian aviation episode previously mentioned above.

Maybe, maybe not?

They are in essence an extension of the management arm and in this case complete puppets. The strings are being pulled from above and without any sort of backbone will continue to flail about in the direction they are told.

If anything they should be helping to support "aussie jobs". Who is to say they are any less expendable than the rest of the crew anyway.

I wonder if the management and HR jobs could be outsourced to a foreign country. I recon foreign management would do just a good a job and be a hell of a lot cheaper. Imagine how much companies would save!!:E

The few spineless creatures that were part of the chardonnay set on the 737 at Ansett, that got their 320 ratings as the house was falling down around them at the expense of their fellow pilots, are now the ones saying that this deal is good for the Jetstar Australian pilots. They have the ability to stop it but they refuse due to their bonuses and their desires to please their masters and climb the pole.
I can actually understand the desire of CEOs and COOs who have only have a penchant to cuts costs and bust unions, but for the gatekeepers that have the ability to stop this, they are the ones where the vitriol should be directed towards.

Watch it guys, the 89ers are popping up,giving advice wanting to fight it all over again.They buggered that one up,sent dozens of people broke in the tourist game without a thought for them,and wallow in a we was robbed mind set.Stand together on this honourable cause,but dont listen to some of those clowns

Redneck you my friend are the clown.

It is obvious you don't know what happened in 89. Perhaps your are one of the scabs from 89. I think I can speak for most on this forum when I say opinions like yours are not welcome.

Before you say anything about me, I am was not involved in 89, infact I was just starting school.

As usual, some want to hijack the thread to reopen old wounds.

This thread is about pilot unity and showing your support for one of the most important things when it comes to the future of Australian aviation.

Australian flying, Australian Jobs, Stop the Offshoring

Tell one, tell all, but most importantly be there in person.

Woody, looks like your going to need the big room, the really big room. Apologies I can't make it. Regards hoss

BS, Redneck, yes we did stuff up big time, but this is not about us, IT IS HISTORY, it is about now. Many of us 89ers now have kids flying, nothing has changed, WE DON'T EVER WANT IT TO HAPPEN TO THEM, OR YOU! Ever since 89 things have changed, pilots have become a bit like the two contenders for the Prime Ministers job, frustrated, angry, fed up, but two scared to rock the boat. And it is because of 89. FORGET BLOODY 89, get some balls and get together and go under one banner, otherwise you blokes and girls will held ransom by the companies forever. Is that what you want, yes, the companies will be out at the meeting with cameras, like they did to us, what are you going to do? wear a burka? No you go up to them and tell them to F$#K off, why? Because if enough of you do the same thing, regardless of company, they are stuffed. I am not a unionist, never voted labor in my life, never will, but for crying out loud, the companies have walked all over you since 89, and now the final insult, foreign pilots, to take your jobs, for less pay, putting the Australian Public at risk, and you lot are going to sit there like a bunch of girls, and let it happen. Am I a angry old man, you betcha, before most of you were born, we were fighting for pilots rights, for a fair wage, for a decent stand down time, for proper accommodation, because before that, they paid us poorly, worked the arse off us, and expected us to share accommodation, absolutely irrelevent now, but the legacy remains, so for those prepared to have a go, onya, for those who remain on the sidelines, with only your own interests at heart, shame, just don't squeal like a stuck pig, when its your turn, and when the flood gates open it will be, go to the meeting, notify the press, get on four Corners, the pollies are too concerned about themselves right now to worry about you lot, grab the chance, get it out there, and have a freckin go, otherwise.................???

teresa, that would have to be the best post that I have ever seen on PPRUNE. Everybody better wake up to themselves and get to the meeting.

I'm extremely disappointed I won't be able to make the meeting as I'll be on holidays and not in SYD.

I'd love to be part of any online petition that we might be able to put together to show our support.

United we stand!

Qantas S/O

The problems in Aviation stem from the conditions in GA. It's amusing that Pilots are now complaining about conditions at the top when they did nothing for them when they were down the bottom and still dont.
The cancer from GA has slowly spread to The Airlines. With the introduction of cadetships across the board the reliance on GA will further reduce it's importance.

You water a plant at the bottom. Fix GA conditions and you will solve the problem.

By the way I love the "I'm not a unionist and I dont vote Labor sentiment" but in the same breathe "we should all stick together as 1"??

Pilots sticking together???? lol.... Pilots circling looking for a better position at the expense of someone else is the common trait.

And it all started when that first Pilot agreed to pay for his endoresement :D:D:ugh:.

We have our selves to blame..... So how do we fix it????? by doing it properly.

First fix the GA award so it can become a sustainable career that offers rewards greater than working at Coles. This will flow onto the regionals when they have to entice pilots with better conditions......and then onto airlines etc..

I hate looking back down at GA more than most of you..... but if you want to enjoy the view from the top then start caring about GA.

teresa green , as noted your post not only nails the issue at heart but also shows the intelligence that is generally lacking on these forums and in this industry in general. Working for this mob it seems that the majority are more than happy to sit back and take it. There are some that even say that because it doesn't affect "THEM" they are not worried about it. Actions speak louder than words, and i regret to say that the majority are no willing to act.....makes me kinda think of the the famous forrest gump quote ...."stupid is as stupid does"

let the games begin

Not in my case Redned. You and your mates can battle your own **** this time. I just sit on the sidelines watching history about to repeat itself with a few diferences but a quite predictable outcome.

Sui generis TG. I hear what you said a few pages ago but I believe the Oz airlines industry is totaly mickey mouse and will be for decades. I feel you should be offering them advice to get the hell out and take a career overseas like plentey of wise kids have done since 2000. I mean why try to rehabilatate and stay marryed to a now pox-infested ugley whore when there are reasonably decent women offshore?

More thoughts from the outside ....
It's a pretty simple equation:

• The Company's priority, rightfully, is commercal success ... not the moral high ground
• Company policy is not normally changed by righteous indignation from the Staff
• Company policy is normally only changed by:

1. Industrial campaign/action by the Staff
2. Sustained Righteous indignation from the Public or Government

The ability to be able to provide a WIN-WIN outcome would be a bonus

From South East Asia and Far East forum.......Replace the airline SpiceJet and insert JetStar??? Who would have any control?
Miles above in unsafe hands - Economy and Politics - livemint.com

Quote:
Take for instance New Delhi-based Garima Passi, 21, who went to a pilot training institute called Sabena Flight Academy in Arizona, US, to get her commercial flying licence in 2008.
Passi was expelled after she damaged an aircraft while on a flight and also had a prop strike—an incident in which the propeller of the aircraft hit the runway.

Jim Fendley, a Sabena instructor who flew with her, commented in a 2008 report that Passi was “inconsistent in almost everything” and recommended that she stop training.

“She is not developing flying skills and is afraid she will damage another airplane or hurt herself,” Fendley said in an email to the institute, reviewed by Mint.

Passi joined Sabena through Gurgaon-based United Aviation Consultants Pvt. Ltd. She displayed a “fear of aircraft”, her evaluation report and log book of flying hours show.

“During the evaluation flight, I observed a young pilot who lacks the confidence of a PIC (pilot in command) and a fear of the aircraft,” her second instructor Eliza Wade said in an evaluation report seeking her termination.

At three hearings, Passi defended herself saying, “I am trying” and “I need one more chance” before she was removed from the academy. Passi came back to India and started training in Uttarakhand-based Amber Aviation (India) Pvt. Ltd from where she passed. Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) records show she was granted a commercial pilot’s licence (CPL) within five days of her application on 18 May 2009.
Soon after, she was inducted into low-cost airline SpiceJet Ltd and flies a Boeing 737-800 as a co-pilot. There has been no reported incident involving the pilot during her employment with the airline.

An emailed questionnaire sent to SpiceJet spokeswoman Priti Dey on 21 June did not elicit any response. The airline did not comment despite repeated reminders. The airline’s acting chief executive officer Kishore Gupta said on 27 July that he wasn’t aware of the issue and would revert after inquiring into the matter with a reply by 28 July. He didn’t.

Passi didn’t reply to text messages and calls made to her cellphone. Her father R.S. Passi, director (air safety) at DGCA, said she had to return from the US academy because she hadn’t been keeping good health.

“They said that she had the option to continue in another scheme, but since she was not keeping well, we called her back,” said Passi, who added that his daughter had been selected for the course by Sabena after she went through several tests, including aptitude tests.

He said the pilot wasn’t required to disclose to DGCA the prop strike, which he denied was an accident, while confirming that “something” had taken place. He also denied any conflict of interest in her being employed with SpiceJet, the operations of which he screens in his role with DGCA

Excellent observation Charlie. I'll go one step further. The mentality since 00/01 in RPT jetland has been "secure the flying, fix the conditions later".
Well, I'm still waiting for those poor souls to have their T&C's improved, It hasn't worked now & it won't work in the future.

Meanwhile operators are claiming "pilot shortage", T&C's conditions decreased. How is that possible in a rational market? Its not, which means one side has acted irrationally (the pilots).

If you are attending this meeting, & hope to improve the situation, understand one thing clearly - Undercutting someone else to secure the flying ALWAYS results in your own conditions been undermined, not improved. Maybe not this year or next, but inevitably in the future. This has been a demonstrable fact over the last ten years.

Operators in general hold nothing but contempt for pilots. As an operator why would you have respect for a group that falls over themselves to "buy a job" or "buy a bigger endorsement".

Everyone needs to have a good hard look at themselves, you either respect the financial/time/effort/family sacrifices & sell your skills for the right price or expect a career that pays less than a cleaner or checkout operator, only with an enormous debt.

Unions & all the big meetings in the world can only help those that help themselves. Your future T&C's are within your own hands, no one else. Each individual must take responsibility for their own actions. Rationalising it away with "if I don't someone else will" has not worked over the last ten years.

It is really that simple, individuals making choices for their long-term benefit, not some short term high. This applies right from the first job in GA, through to the heavies.

Antill, datal seniority in one tool of many to capture the workforce. My information is that datal seniority in J* & VB is very loosely applied at present anyway.

Lets see how non-datal seniority works within the "j* Group" before concluding it is the sole reason for all ills. In fact, I'll bet that with the merit base system "j* Group", T&C's decline further.

PB costing VB pilots 12 Commands
 

Announced today, 12 upcoming VB Commands cancelled due to PB taking over VB flying.

The routes being taken over have nothing to to do flights out of NZ where PB should belong. They are all flights originating in Aus, and DPS is not even on PB's AOC.

This is costing Australian jobs, as intake courses have been cancelled as well.

Looks like all the VB boys should be attending this meeting also. Virgin might have beaten Jetstar on this one.

Some perspective on the GFC and what it is doing to working conditions around the world. The next time an airline claims the GFC as rationale for cutting conditions..

"Crisis. What Crisis? Profits Soar!

By James Petras

August 16, 2010 -- While progressives and leftists write about the “crises of capitalism”, manufacturers, petroleum companies, bankers and most other major corporations on both sides of the Atlantic and Pacific coast are chuckling all the way to the bank.

From the first quarter of this year, corporate profits have shot up between twenty to over a hundred percent, (Financial Times August 10, 2010, p. 7). In fact, corporate profits have risen higher than they were before the onset of the recession in 2008 (Money Morning March 31, 2010). Contrary to progressive bloggers the rates of profits are rising not falling, particularly among the biggest corporations (Consensus Economics, August 12, 2010). The buoyancy of corporate profits is directly a result of the deepening crises of the working class, public and private employees and small and medium size enterprises.

With the onset of the recession, big capital shed millions of jobs (one out of four Americans has been unemployed in 2010), secured give backs from the trade union bosses, received tax exemptions, subsidies and virtually interest free loans from local, state and federal governments.

As the recession temporarily bottomed out, big business doubled up production on the remaining labor force, intensifying exploitation (more output per worker) and lowered costs by passing onto the working class a much larger share of health insurance and pension benefits with the compliance of the millionaire trade union officials. The result is that while revenues declined, profits rose and balance sheets improved (Financial Times August 10, 2010). Paradoxically, the CEO’s used the pretext and rhetoric of “crises” coming from progressive journalists to keep workers from demanding a larger share of the burgeoning profits, aided by the ever growing pool of unemployed and underemployed workers as possible “replacements” (scabs) in the event of industrial action.

The current boom of profits has not benefited all sectors of capitalism: the windfall has accrued overwhelmingly with the biggest corporations. In contrast many middle and small enterprises have suffered high rates of bankruptcy and losses, which has made them cheap and easy prey for buyouts for the ‘big fellows’ (Financial Times August 1, 2010). The crises of middle capital has led to the concentration and centralization of capital and has contributed to the rising rate of profits for the largest corporations.

The failed diagnosis of capitalist crises by the left and progressives has been a perennial problem since the end of World War II, when we were told capitalism was ‘stagnant” and heading for a final collapse. Recent prophets of the apocalypse saw in the 2008-2009 recession the definitive and total crash of the world capitalist system. Blinded by Euro-American ethnocentrism, they failed to note that Asian capital never entered the “final crises” and Latin America had a mild and transient version (Financial Times June 9, 2010, p. 9). The false prophets failed to recognize that different kinds of capitalism are more or less susceptible to crises … and that some variants tend to experience rapid recoveries (Asia-Latin America- Germany) while others (US, England, Southern and Eastern Europe) are more susceptible to anemic and precarious recoveries.

While Exxon-Mobile reaped over 100% growth of profits in 2010 and the auto corporations recorded their biggest profits in recent years, the workers’ wages and living standards declined and state-sector employees suffered harsh cutbacks and massive layoffs. It is clear that the recovery of corporate profit is based on the harshest exploitation of labor and the biggest transfers of public resources to the large private corporations. The capitalist state, with Democratic President Obama in the lead, has transferred billions to big capital via direct bailouts, virtual interest free loans, tax cuts and by pressuring labor to accept lower wages and health and pension givebacks. The White House plan for ‘recovery’ has worked beyond expectations – corporate profits have recovered; “only” the vast majority of workers have fallen deeper into crises.

The progressives’ failed predictions of capitalism’s demise are a result of their underestimation of the extent to which the White House and Congress would plunder the public treasury to resuscitate capital. They underestimated the degree to which capital had been freed to shift the entire burden of profit recovery onto the backs of labor. In that regard, progressive rhetoric about “labor resistance” and the “trade union movement” reflected a lack of understanding that there has been virtually no resistance to the roll back of social and money wages because there is no labor organization. What passes for it is totally ossified and at the service of the Democratic Party’s Wall Street advocates in the White House.

What the current unequal and uneven impact of the capitalist system tells us is that capitalists can overcome crises only by heightening exploitation and rolling back decades of “social gains”. The current process of profit recovery, however, is highly precarious because it is based on exploiting current inventories, low interest rates and cutting labor costs (Financial Times August 10, 2010, p 7). It is not based on dynamic new private investments and increased productive capacity. In other words, these are “windfall gains” - not profits derived from increased sales revenues and expanding consumer markets. How could they be – if wages are declining and unemployment/underemployment/and lost labor is over 22%? Clearly, this short-term profit boom, based on political and social advantages and privileged power, is not sustainable. There are limits to the massive layoffs of public employees and production gains from the intensified exploitation of labor … something has to give. One thing is certain: The capitalist system will not fall or be replaced because of its internal rot or “contradictions”."

I'll be there.
 

I will be there.

Ok most have read this but have you forwarded to your mates on email?

I haven't recieved one invite via email. COpy ans paste the details and send to your mates...

or we will be forever grounded:*