If I'm off and in SY, I'm there (VB). Perhaps for those who cant make it, a consent form of some sort be drafted so they can sign and a petition of absentee names be produced for further support.

"This will affect ALL Australian Pilots at some time during their career - so we need your support"

With the greatest of respect Woody, how is this going to affect a GADRIVR and his/her terms and conditions out there in GA land?

I'd like to say that I'd be attending however the porpose of this meeting seems firmly aimed at resolving the present predicament that the QF group aircrew find themselves in at the moment, and as such, will not affect me one way or the other (nothing changes in other words).

To ask GA types to be there as this MAY affect your future seems a tad naive as it stands at the moment.

Put out the phrase "we also will be applying immense pressure to the GA employers sector with a view to improving T&Cs and giving those aircrew a viable career path" may give me personally a reason to attend.

Kind Regards,
GA driver

I hate to say it but I cant see this as winnable.
The o/seas guys who will bid for Australian jobs will be Australians with Aussie passports, cant really stop that.

The new job contracts are legit and if signed by whoever will be binding. There is enough desperation in this industry to fill any jet position, look at the JQ A330 Singapore.
We are unfortunately in the age of if you dont like it leave , and there is lots more not to like coming.
JQ are one step ahead , they know maybe 50 or so F/Os will leave, cadets will fill the positions on lower salary, its a win win for the company.
I hope you guys can achieve something I really do, but it sure looks bleak.

:D

How will this affect GA drivers?
 

Simple. It will have a flow on effect down throughout GA. If the airlines are less desirable a place to work, GA pays will be scaled back too.

Everyone needs to be there.

Together we need to act now to preserve all of our livelihoods.

Whomever you are, if you want to preserve the career path of the Australian professional aviator - Get to this meeting any way you can.

Ahem.

Any improvement to pilot salaries and conditions will come at the expense of other pilot's jobs.

FGD135, I sorry but when the combined tech crew costs of a ticket between SYD & MEL/ADL/BNE/CBR is 1/10th the passenger handling charges alone, I call bull****.



The burritomister will be at the meeting.

We should organise a 'PPRUNE corner' at the meeting. Time to 'out' everybody! :E

That is why I will fight with every fibre in my body to expose the indentured servitude that is the modern cadetship system.

Sure, some will be caught in the first & second rounds of these modern slavery schemes. But thanks to the Internet, as things pan out as I predict, the numbers who will willingly sell themselves into bondage will diminish rapidly. All it will take is the cadets themselves to start campaigning against these scheme once the "shafted" penny drops - just as they have done in the UK CTC slavery thread.
Unlike 20 years ago, google allows information to flow.

Let me tell you QF J* and 89ers standing side by side has implications for the entire industry. Your conditions are directly connected to the conditions in Jet land. Suggest you have a look at what happens in GA in the states.

My only concern is that the meeting will only be attended by ppruners. Alot of people don't read it. Would be good if the AIPAAFAPVIPATWU reps could email or call their members.

As a JQ FO, I would love to be there. To be standing beside any aviator. No matter which company, flying whatever aircraft and being represented any union.

As I am unable to attend in person, you still have my full support.:D:D

Words just can't say how upset everyone is at Jetstar. With morale down so low I don't know if there will be anyway of returning this company to the great times when Mr Joyce was in charge.
Check out our OTP each week, just embarrising! And our CEO thinks it is good.
Can't wait to see this weeks!

GA guys it does affect you if you want a career in the airlines. Do you want to start on 50k/year out of Singapore? Or maybe a liitle more out of NZ? And that's after paying $35k for an endorsement. Rememeber your Command and base will be on merit!

Bruce asked us in a past engagement survey whether we would recommend people to positions within Jetstar. I and nearly every other pilot in Jetstar right now would say NO NO NO, this place has fallen apart.

I truly believe that many QF pilots will turn up as JetConnect is having the same effect on their morale. What is happening at VB and what will happen at Tiger, REX and any other airline?

I'll be at the meeting thanks to Bruce's management skills!

Regards,
A once dedicated Jetstar Pilot.

I guess everyone who has thoughts on this would like to attend. An idea;

A list of emails from people who oppose the JQ?

Or a list of comments about JQ?

The more support the better, and if someone came to the meeting with 500+ comments opposing it, we would stand a much better chance. Maybe they might listen to us.

Everyone knows most pilots in GA are pussys and will no stand up for themselves, so with the comments list an option you could remain anonymous?

??Most of the pilots in GA are the same as the guys in the Airlines. They just started a few years later?? They'll eventually be the people that will have these contacts pushed in front of them during their interviews.

Yeah you know this is true when senior 320/330 guys start applying to VB!

QF Drivers
 

I would think that the QF drivers would want to show up for sure.

If its happening at Jetstar, it cant be too far away from happening at QF. Its certainly in their interests to stop this as well.

In fact I think its in every pilots future (well anyone who wants a viable career from aviation in the future).

Wow - so far I'm amazed. As post No 3 on this thread I predicted this would probably degenerate into the usual self-interested, sneering backstabbing that is all too frequently the hallmark of the Australian 'Professional' pilot body. So far so good!

Since at least 1989 we have been played masterfully by skilled airline managers who know exactly how to manipulate us. Our division has only helped them further.

If we can just maintain a degree of forward vision over perceived short-term personal benefit then we will have taken the first step in re-instating the rewards sought after years of slugging it out for historically low pay and conditions.

My next wish-list item would be a truly united AIPA/AFAP/J*/VB etc union with members who have the nouse to put the past behind them and move forward for the benefit of EVERYBODY.

Sure you will always have the inevitable snakes who will undermine us all as a collective group by undercutting etc but the ONLY way to gain improvements for all Professional pilots is to do so as a collective and united group.

Whilst a new united union may result through efficiencies of scale in the loss of a few clerical/admin jobs it would hugely benefit the lot of ALL Australian pilots and surely that should be the ultimate aim?

Great to see people taking the initiative.

PLEASE - Stop at consider what is really happening to the airline industry in Australia

1. Airlines are not making any real profits. QF's latest profit comes from payments for dealyed a/c deliveries and selling FF points to Woolworths
2. The cost structure of Australian Airlines is under threat from the Asian carriers who have substantially lower costs ie. AirASiaX
3. Incomes in the industry will fall to try and compete
4. Unless costs can be controlled (and part of this problem is middle management) airlines operating into and in Australia will become primarily Asian owned ie. Tiger
5. The days of huge salary and the laid back lifestyle are gone
6. If you want high income go get a job selling insurance or become a dentist or lawyer
7. Rember 1989. 1989 Part II is coming

THINK
a. Save the industry
b. Save your jobs
c. Secure the future

Would love to attend but based away from SYD and flying that day.

Good luck and look forward to the post meeting outcomes...

What effect on the Australian economy (just after an election??) would parking everything at the gate/terminal/strip/loading pad/helipad whatever you want to call it and walking away for 1 day have?

I can't attend the meeting. I Cannot afford the trip on my GA salary!!!!!

I will not fly anywhere on this day, by choice.

Good luck and safe travels to All.

What effect on the Australian economy (just after an election??) would parking everything at the gate/terminal/strip/loading pad/helipad whatever you want to call it and walking away for 1 day have?

Sorry to offend but what part of 1989 do you not understand?
1989 Australian pilots' dispute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An orchestrated move that back fired in the worst possible way. Just ask the crews that NEVER flew again in Australia. I have said it before and I say it again 1989 part II is coming

For those that think along similar lines have a good hard look at yourself and your mates in aviation.

It won't affect me....:ugh:
Wrong...

It might not affect you today, maybe not tomorrow but you can't bet your last breath it will affect you.
So you're a GA pilot, do you want to stay where you are?
How about when it comes time to move up the ranks only to find out the position you've applied to has already been filled by cheaper labour.
Or the job you dreamt of for so long pays less than it did 1,2,3,4,5.....20 years ago when you said arrogantly it won't affect me.
Or how about when it comes time to get another GA job or the boss turns up one day with a re-negotiation for you.

Think it won't happen. What happens when this gets pushed through by Jetstar.
You decide (along with plenty of others), I didn't want to go there anyway...T&C's are garbage.
Movement stops. Jobs are still filled by contractors, foreigners or whom ever.
You go to your boss....I'm still here, a loyal employee, no incidents blah blah blah, how about a payrise.
Boss turns around, yeah but you're not leaving nor is anyone else. They pay crap over at xxxx so why should I pay you more, they work harder, its a jet/prop, more demanding etc etc etc the list goes on.

Anyone who is anyone should attend this meeting from students to charter guys, RFDS through to airline pilots.

If you knew you were going to be on lesser T&C's in 5-20yrs from now than you are today......what would you do?

Think it won't happen. Try a little research

1a Sound Asleep, we are all waiting for your solution, assuming that you perceive there is actually a problem. Please provide us with your wisdom, what exactly would you suggest?

1a whats your suggestion? I've read your post and I get the distinct impression you think you think we should just accept the offshoring and side stepping of our EBA's. EBA's that were agreed to by employers and employees.

Nothing to do with a high income. Just a fair days pay for a fair days work. Someone has to stand up and say enough's enough.

The low cost AirAsia/Tiger style of business will eventually erode safety margins and the Australian tax payer will be the eventual loser when a tired hungry stressed pilot has a bad day.

They're already complaining How did the friendly skies become so unfriendly? | News.com.au

Its time for some reform in this industry.

I tried to make this point in an earlier post, but amid all the euphoria, it seems to have gone through to the keeper:

Improving your own salary and conditions will put other pilots out of a job.

This is a basic economic reality. Improvements to YOUR terms and conditions are at the expense of other pilot's jobs. This is because the money that pays the increased salaries must come from the public.

But the public, generally speaking, can't afford the extra cost, or are not prepared to pay it.

And no, it is not just another 20 or 30 cents on the airfare.

I agree FGD, let's all work for minimum wage and everything will be ok :ugh:

This is not about improving salary ! - Most of the JQ guys I know are relatively happy with the pay and conditions in their EBA, its the principle of offshoring new jobs to other countries and bringing in new crew on dodgy contracts to fly the ones they cant offshore.

If JQ can do it, so can any other operator. Look back at what QF and JQ have done to divide the flight attendants in the last few years - there are now about ten different companies/contracts, where there used to be one or two. Each new company/contract undercut the last, and lots of them are now based in asia earning little more than a bowl of labrador and rice a week...... Im sure they would love to do the same to us.

This has the potential to effect GA drivers and regional pilots as much as any JQ pilot.

If you were Bruce Buchanan would you rather employ an experienced 3000hr FO from a regional airline on $90k or a 200hr cadet pilot you lock in for 6 years at $40k (and has already paid you $100k for the privilege) ?

I never thought Id see this sort of unity on PPRUNE.... is great.... were up to page 4 and no one has make a kok of themselves yet - Ill be there !

Do I need to RSVP ??

Beers afterwards anyone ??

Don't know what the roster holds yet, but if available I will also be in attendance. For the one or two clowns who simply think we are after lots and lots a money, grow up and actually read what's going on. As a poster above said, this is about at least retaining what we have, and halting that slide into oblivion that the pissants who run these airlines take so much joy in implementing.

Before you all get too full of bravado, just have a good read of the lengths the Airlines will go to to maintain the modus operandi. It is all here and pay particular notice of the section titled "The Role of the Pilots who scabbed".

Good Luck :ok:

One of the biggest problems with pilots is we are surprisingly blind when it comes to matters of economics.

Some of us even believe the nonsense put out by airline CEO's and even regurgitate it here.

ie: the sky is falling. Sneaky Asian airlines will undercut us. Employees salaries must be cut to stay competitive. cut, cut, cut, chop, chop, chop. Be careful or we'll put another 1989 your way. Be scared. Accept these cuts to save the industry, save your jobs and secure the future.

But then the airlines reap in millions in profits. The greedy CEO's depart with massive payouts and yet we are gullible enough still to cower in fear!! Astonishing.

I work for an Asian airline and I make way more than I could in Australia and the cost base here is far higher than Australia. Pilots in Australia are being conned and just taking it.

The airline I work for made nearly ONE BILLION AUSTRALIAN DOLLARS in the last six months alone. And still it's CEO's are blurting on about rocky recoveries and the need for staff to accept no salary increases. That doesn't apply to their bonuses of course.

Bottom Line: Airline CEO's want to make the best profit so their CV looks good and they get a better job in the future. If that means screwing you out of everything then so be it. You are just an impediment to how much money lines their own pockets.

Bottom Line: Basic economic laws of supply and demand still control most markets and pilots are no exception. This has been the root cause of much of our problem over the years - too many pilots not enough proper jobs. But the law still works and being a pilot is no longer attractive so fewer and fewer are being churned-out. Airlines globally have so many aircraft on order and are about to have difficulty getting experienced pilots to fly them. Emirates is only one - needing 750 pilots in the next 16 months. This shortage was already the case before the GFC and my airline couldn't get what they deemed decent pilots anywhere.

Net results is that Terms and Conditions for qualified and experienced aircrews MUST improve in accordance with basic economic laws.

But it is important that we don't swallow the nonsense sprouted by CEO's whose only interest is their own. Airlines may temporarily distort markets by importing say a Cessna Caravan driver from Bolivia with 800 hours to be an A320 Captain BUT as the Colgan case in the US proves, governments will not allow this indefinitely as standards inevitably slip.

And this is the key to our own PR Case. Governments and the public need to be made aware that the J*'s of this world will stop at nothing to boost their profits, including the inevitable reduction of skill and experience that lowering
recruitment profiles entails. This inevitably will be countered with claims of featherbedding etc and the likes of O'Leary of Ryanair are past masters of this. But don't be dissuaded by this tactic. The Colgan case and the US Congress minimum-experience legislation is a very powerful PR weapon for us.

And for goodness sake don't go falling for the CEO Chicken-Little "Sky is Falling" spiel.

Jeez I can rabbit-on, sorry about that...

Guys & Gals,

I'm not one of you ... but I support you.
You may have only one chance at this, so make it a good one.
Suggestions:

1. Yes, there have been some bastards pilots, bastard organisations and bastard companies in the past. Get over it quickly ... and move on.
2. Don't worry too much about how companies will fund your salary. That's just a reasonable cost of doing business ... just like fuel costs, ASA charges and "Taxes". It's their responsibility to sell ticket prices to the public ... if they want the public to fly.

I've seen other groups within a similar industry have a similar opportunity. Petty jealousies scuttled the attempt ... to their long term loss.

Best of luck.

A. Le Rhone what a fantastic post.

I guess there is always the option 1a and FDG offer. Sit back and let it happen because hey we need to protect jobs.

Then in 10 years time when all cabin crew and pilots and indeed all staff bar the CEO are from Manilla and Dheli and the likes of these two start complaining about How did the friendly skies become so unfriendly? | News.com.au we can send them a post card from which ever overseas country we've taken our experience to. On the post card is written "made your bed now sleep in it".

Alternatively we'll just wait for 180 people to die because some indian lad had been awake for 56 hours due to exemption x and speared one in. This might be the easier option shouldn't take too long. That annoying human factors thingy just keeps popping up. Just ask the Colgan family and friends how the cheap fares are going.

There's only so much you can squeeze out of the aviation orange before something goes bang. Oh well.

FGD135,

Is a very naive and short sighted view of price elasticity in economics. Just to flip it on it's side, what would happen if pilot salaries dropped to minimum wage? Would the industry attract the right professional's to its ranks? How would safety be affected?

If you are correct then perhaps we should apply this to the medical profession, would reducing doctors salaries increase the amount of doctors in the ranks? Many more people could then receive more detailed medical attention / cosmetic surgery / less hospital waiting times? There is after all a finite amount of money available from govt/insurance/private health funds.

Besides, as has been pointed out this meeting is not about increasing pay, but protecting T&C and ensuring that there remains an aviation industry in Australia.

Cheers,
MHA

I presume our little non-Australian "Friends" at the respective airlines are not welcome at this meeting?

One would assume that those in NZ on the disgraceful NZ contract would be welcome to attend. I know for a fact there are some in Christchurch keen to attend.

The Christchurch example has got to be the worst situation in the whole Jetstar debacle. Pilots on the pitance salaries, working along those on EBA contracts ! Same job, same aircraft, same routes - only difference: less days off and a fraction of the salary !!!!
Let Christchurch be a lesson to us all, and STOP IT HAPPENING IN OZ AND ALL BASES !!!!!

You blokes cannot allow what happened in 89 make you have to put up with sh#t forever more. I for one wish it had never happened, but it did, learn from it, we were like lambs to the slaughter, you are anything but. At last I am seeing, I hope, some balls out there, and for us 89ers perhaps it will give us reason to cheer at long last. Get this into the press, not check book stuff, but perhaps 4 corners, the seven thirty report, etc get it out there, get the engineers on side, involve GA bigtime, the flying schools are going to be badly hit, get them involved, get yourselves a press guy, involve high schools that have aviation courses ditto tech colleges and most of all get the public on side. Most Australians are fairly laid back about flying, that is partly because of their confidence of the bloke or girl up the front, they know the score, thousands of hours etc, they will not be too comfortable when this suddenly changes, not at all. Is this on all airline chatrooms/forums, if not why not, AND STICK TOGETHER, and last but not least, all of you take on two extra tons, just to tickle em up a bit! Us old blokes will be cheering you on, for the sake of our young pilots, go for it!:D

Apparently the media will also be there, so it is important that we get a good showing. Please email the AIPA offices if you can attend.

I havent read all of the above, so apologies if it has already been mentioned, but apparently Jetstar are also trying to crew 5 A320's in Oz with contract crew, bypassing the EBA!!!

This is our chance..lets take it. Perhaps we could take note of the following (my bold)...

"...'when the CEO's of Delta, Air France and KLM signed a Joint Venture Protocol with their respective pilots unions..........The pilot groups mentioned above also spoke of an agreement to further develop relationships and to share information..........no pilot group benefits at the expense of the other, and this agreement helps establish a level of trust and cooperation between the parties....Pilot unity is essential in understanding where other groups sit and understanding their concerns...'

cheers

Dont waste your breath mate. Everybody knew back then the Oz airline industry was going to become a hell-hole and the only surprise was that it took 12 years more than what we thought. In 89 I recall going blue in the face trying to explain whats gonna happen if the Fat Man and Jimmy Bow-Tie and the Silver Bodgie get there way and I was virtualy jeered and ridiculed at by these (then) upcoming kids. McCarthy and the Feds got ditto as well.

So the full bloodey circle has come around huh? So be it - its up them now to sort out there own frigging mess and has realy nothing to do with us. Personaly I believe its a totaly unwinnable situation as the precidents are well and truley cemented.

Sui generis TG.

J*, V, T and other "low cost carriers" are facing the facts that to operate any business you need at least 2 key ingredients.

1. A sound business plan.

2. People working for you that are satisfied that they are reaching their set goals.

The data that has already been collected overseas shows that there is no such thing as a safe low cost carrier.

Gotta go and dump some shares.

I for one will attend the meeting and am pleased to see some unity being generated at last in our profession.
We can no longer lay idle, anesthetized by the bull$#!t spin dealt us by these trolls who deal in fear, telling us the world will stop spinning less you dig deeper to get yourself out of the hole you are digging.

Slasher, this is a whole new ball game mate. We had a Prime Minister who answered to developers, the present bunch are too busy watching their own backs to worry about you lot, and you can safely say the pilots of 89 and their pay claim, regardless if you agreed with it or not, was the start of enterprise bargaining, which is the norm these days. What I DON"T want to see are the AIPA and the AFAP frightened to have a go because of us, the companies will continue to heap sh#t on you whilst you have that attitude, and us, the 89ers, hope to see you unite under one banner and stick it too them. While we are certainly irelevent these days, (or many of us are) it was us blokes (yes I was on the AFAP committee) who fought to get pilots, good wages (I was earning less than my neighbour who serviced phone lines) got the bid lines going, got good accomodation for our crews (the companies would have us share a room if they could) and no I don't think we were bloody hero's for doing it, it was a privilege to battle some of these bastards, but it should not stop now, speak up, you live in a democracy, use it, it is not a forgone conclusion as you suggest, only if you allow it to be..:=

Where will the money come from?
 

Where will the money to finance the improved T&Cs come from?

It can only come from one place: the travelling public.

Will they happily pay more for their tickets? Generally speaking, NO. Like any other commodity, the greater its cost, the less of it that will be sold.

As airfares increase, the less affordable air travel becomes.

With less of the public travelling by air, the number of aircraft and pilots required will be less.

This means that planes will have to go into storage and their pilots will have to find other employment.

It's that simple.

Look at it another way: There are many, many times more pilots (and planes) these days than there were 20 years ago. This is because air travel is many, many times more affordable than 20 years ago.

Pilots (and flight attendants, engineers, managers) must expect that their T&Cs (and lifestyle) will be many, many times worse than it was 20 years ago.

When are you guys going to realise that commercial air travel has been on this course since the 1920's?

Think you can change that course?