Would be interested to see a link to the pay agreement covering the Singapore based A330 crews.

If new J* Oz pilots are to be employed on new conditions is anyone able to expand on the new jetstar group conditions?

Have an assessment day coming up and would be handy to have all the info to hand to make an informed decision before making the trek down to melbourne.

PM me if you wish:ok:

Which are? ... and if so Im pretty sure that the workplace ombudsman would love to hear from you 13 13 94.

Last Fridays Australian News Paper had an insert magazine with the J* boss as the feature article:

"I need to reduce my cost's by 4% every year."

I wonder how this is achieved, they aren't very original are they, lets not try and hedge our fuel properly, lets not try and hedge our currency properly, lets not try and negotiate cheaper aircraft purchases, no! I have an idea, let pay our staff less and shaft the S%^T out of them, how very original. Why go and study an MBA, we learn it from our management, better still, they do them online anyway. No way they could pass a Harvard MBA, if they could, they would not be working for J*.

Where do I sign up for Food Stamps, oh that's right, we will be banned by management from doing that!

Heard the other day that JB at VB said J* looses 16 Million a year, but better to loose 16 Million at J*, than compete with Tiger and VB and loose 100 Million with QF. Interesting fact!

"lets not try and hedge our fuel properly, lets not try and hedge our currency properly, lets not try and negotiate cheaper aircraft purchases,"

They do that too.

"lets pay our staff less"

You wont be paid any less for the job you do.

You wont be paid any less for the job you do But others will!

Have a look at VB's previous currency hedging and fuel hedging success! My reference to this was their ability to get it correct, not the fact that they don't already do this!

"Need to save 4% per year every year"

Well if REG learnt to engage his staff.
Listened to his management staff.
Treated staff with a bit of repsect.
Brought a bit of humility to the job.
And oh I don`t know, how about cut your own pay!
Then he might might find that most if not all of that 4% would come naturally.
Instead he is festering an increasingly militant workforce. One that has no interest in the welfare of the company or the people it serves. One that has no respect for its leader and as a result will continue to resist his drive for lowering our wages and conditions.
There is more to running an airline that what you read in a textbook REG.
Or you could read post entitled To REG, and read about another success story. Oh one that you might be competing against in the near future.

Get out or shut up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Agreed Mr Normasars! If you don't like it, don't work there.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out!
 

I think Jetstar is definately there now! Not just the pilots either!

Problem for REG is that his style of management is not sustainable in the long term. (REG will shoot himself in the foot one way or another)

Any promotions???
 

Given all this uncertainty, have any new Australian slots been announced internally???

Mate just emailed me the T&C's for the 330 gig in SIN.

WHY would you bother??? It appears to be even less $$ than the A320 J*Asia contract.

Should have done a trade after all...

These were posted on Qrewroom. I don't know of their accuracy.

:rolleyes:

SGD $120,000 = AUS $97,963


Good god. Time to head back to uni.

A Regional Turbo-prop Captain earns about that!!!

Bet they get crew though...:suspect:

All things being equal it will be a bit more than that. I'm not sure if the $3.5K annual leave on top of the base pay or not. If it's on top then you can add $17.5K. Additionally, it's based on 600 hours so if you fly (say) 750 then you can add another $30K. That takes the package to a massive ( :rolleyes: ) $177.5K SGD. Of course, you can then deduct the standard 9% of Aussie Super if you want it to continue taking you back down to about $160K SGD. Given the lower tax rate you're going to clear 136 SGD..... about $110K AUD. :eek:

I suspect that rental apartments in Singapore are down from their highs a couple of years back but I still reckon it would be $5-6K per month for a 3 b/r apartment in a decent area. Definitely a package that will suit the young single guys who are willing to share accommodation.

The figures people have listed above are correct.
Looking at figures sent by a friend, you are looking at
$151 SGD based on 600hrs thru to
$228 SGD based on 950hrs work
Plus you get a 10% bonus if you stay each year

usually Jetstar at least try to hide the turd sandwich with some extra lettuce or a piece of cheese full of holes but this time it's an open grill :}

Magicbox,

The figures you quote are correct but they include the bonus and the assumption of a certain number of lay over allowances. No super paid.

At the moment A330 Jetstar Capt AUS $175000 base, plus over time at $222 per/hr over 75 hrs per/calander month, plus 9% super of that total and about $140 per lay over.

FO's 60% of above.

You are correct. Figures did include the bonus + layover.
My mistake....

....its turned the turd sandwich into a foot long turd sub :}

A couple of things here might help you guys;
1) You have to be declared a non-resident to pay only SG tax.
2) As a non-resident you cannot pay into a Aus Super scheme.
3) Once declared a non-resident you will loose your Medi-Card and benefits and loose membership of your private health scheme. (MBF in my case).
4) Tax here varies from year to year (subject to the countries performance). Plan around 20%.
5) For the first five years (it might have changed, so check) you are able to claim a rebate under the NOR scheme (Not an Ordinary Resident) providing you are out of the country for at least 93 days in one calender year. Depends on your Gross but in my case around 8 to 10 grand discount.
6) As a non-resident you have restrictions on the number of days allowed in Aus or you could be subjected to tax differences.
7) My accountant says 90 days but some have a private ruling and I have heard of 105 days.
8) This rule has recently been updated so check it out.They seem to be after commuters.
9) SG 4,000 to 5,000 will get a decent place (3-bedroom per month).
10) My wife and I have been happy here and like the place, but it's not home.
11) Our mates in CASA will not issue you an ASIC as a non-resident so when you want to fly privately in Aus you have to get escorted to the aircraft which really bugs me for some reason. Happy to answer any other Singapore questions, lots of good pubs and other more important info.

OYY1 :

Your calculations are misleading.

You compare 840 hours in Australia vs 890 hours in Singapore.:eek:

Why not compare for the same flying hours ? :confused:

If you do the same hours in Australia (890), you will earn an extra $11,500 gross in Australia :eek:

You say :

I just had a look at the rather complicated tax ruling and I conclude that unless you commit yourself to Singapore for 2 years or more (and all other conditions), you will not get away with paying Singapore only tax. :eek:

We are only talking about a small $43,795 difference here.:eek: That is $43,795 less in your pocket to live in one of the most expensive cities (in the top 10) in the world for an expat. :eek:

So is this really a lousy deal or are you one of the people trying to pull the wool over pilots eyes ? :eek:

Even if the NET pay was exactly the same as you are trying to make us all believe, how much more expensive is it to live in Singapore compared to Australia ?

$65,000 for a basic small car :eek:
rent about $4000-5000/month :eek:

So do you still think it is a good deal or as good as it is in Australia ? :confused:

OYY1 :

I redid the calculations for you : :ok:

A330 Year 4 EBA:
AUD $180,871
Extra Flying Allowance (>75 hrs per month) AUD $230 per hour
6% Retention payment (paid at end of years 1, 3 and 5) averages out at 6% per annum.
Superannuation 9%

Assuming 890 hours per annum :
Base: 180,871
Extra Flying: (10 x230) x 10.5 months (6 weeks leave) = 24,150
Retention: 6% x (180,871 + 12,075) = 11,577
Superannuation: 18,407
Gross Pay: 216,598
Gross Pay plus Super: 235,005
Tax: 72,187
Net Pay: 144,411
AUD $ Net Pay plus Super: AUD $162,818, converted to SGD $ =
SGD $ Net Pay plus Super: SGD $199,750


A330 SINGAPORE:
SGD $200 per hour (guaranteed 600 hours per annum)
5 Weeks Leave at SGD $3500 per week
10% Bonus

Projected hours 890 per annum
890 x 200 = 178,000
Leave: 17,500
10% bonus: 19,550
Gross Pay: 215,050
Total Tax (Aust and Singapore): 71,671
SGD $ Net Pay: SGD $143,379

Just a few small insignificant differences as you can see :eek:

I see that Singapore Airlines Cargo are employing. If anyone from Jetstar Aus was looking at moving for a widebody then cargo would be a better bet. More money bigger A/C and truly global flying. Check it out at flight international..

OYY1 :

I am sorry if I misunderstood your post, but your comments/question tells me that you do not think this is lousy deal.

You later admit that most pilots will be unable to avoid paying Australian tax, then why do you make a comparison using Singapore tax only. I understood you used the word "IF", but it's a very big IF. Why didn't you do a more realistic comparison using Australian tax which will apply to most pilots ?

In your first post you point out how "some" (very few) pilots will have the same NET pay as in Australia.

You use this basis alone for comparison, then you write .

There is a lot more to consider other than the NET pay whether it is a lousy deal or not, such as the cost of living in Singapore. You do not mention this anywhere in your first post.

Not wanting to muddy the waters much more than they are already, however add these to the mix:-

Three Bedroom 1300sq-foot condo, SD$4000-$5500 per month,
Toyota Corrolla SD$85000-$95000
International school, SD$2500-$10,000 per student per month
(Local (cheaper) school possible subject to pass in Mandarin or Bahasa Malay)
Chicken Rice, SD$4- small portion.

Not sure where the 890hrs came from but cant see why the company would have you do more than the 600.
Also its getting sad when we start factoring in leave pay, dont count on it as anyone in JQ will tell you leave is hard to get with all the leave blackouts and these guys will roster so that they will somehow have you doing 600hrs over 12 months( will give you plenty of time down at east coast spending whats left of your A$93600 before tax.Dhc8 skippers in oz get more)
The 10% bonus also only applies to JQ oz pilots leaving to go to Sin.
Super also needs to be self funded so if we added this to the Australian conditions how about we take it off the Sin Conditions unless planing on retiring to east coast park as well.
At least the finish line at the bottom is coming into sight.

Are you employed by a Singaporean Company or an Australian Company?

And people thought I was crazy when I turned Jetstar down for an interview 8 years ago when they told me I had to pay for an endorsement,

and their response was to ring me back and say but dont you want to work for an airline!!!

funny how when I laughed and said that I didnt consider them an airline. I was told that they would note that on my file and ensure I never had a job with them, they then called me back a few months later asking whether I would reconsider!

They cant even keep to their word on who they dont want to hire!

To this day I have never paid for an endorsement, I earn better money than most airline pilots, and I work a lot less than all airline pilots, and best of all I really do enjoy my job, My aeroplane and most importantly my lifestyle!

Impulse (Jetstar), virgin, Jet connect, they are all the same, and all you guys that jumped in bed with them are now complaining because a younger version of yourselves are emerging to do the same to you.

Oh the Irony

"Now what you guys did to QF"

What exactly did the guys "do" to QF.

"is happening to you"

Yep, market forces work in many ways.

"You started the race to the bottom"

Wow, great fear mongering. You really like playing the victim don't you. Only ignorance would suggest that the participants within the labor market are responsible for its behaviour. There are many forces that have changed the nature of employment within the airline industry in Australia. The removal of regulation is the most obvious one but also the replacement of a highly unionised legacy carrier with a largely un unionised startup. This was the crack in the door that totally changed for ever the way labor would be employed.

But its much easier to simply blame your fellow employees, isn't it?

Professor, you pseudo-intellectual moniker belies the fact that you don't know what you are talking about sometimes. Jetstar has a unionised pilot workforce, more and moreso with every passing day.

50 expressions of interest and still counting from the Townsville refueller.

“Jetstar has a unionized pilot workforce, more and moreso with every passing day.”

Kremin, you are correct. Most airlines, even LCC’s and startups, have some form of ineffective union participation. From an employees perspective you may have the warm and fuzzy feeling that organized labor brings but from a business perspective, airlines such as Jetstar can be started and to some extent operated virtually free of the industrial barriers that hobbled Ansett and still hobble Qantas. DEC’s, crew compliments, foreign bases, lower salaries, fewer benefits.

Jetstar is EFFECTIVELY un unionized. You missed the subtlety in my previous post.

The foundation of Jetstar was built from a factionalized organisation known as Impulse.

Within this group the modus operandi was to undercut and oversee the demise of one regional airline followed by the undermining of another airline. Unfortunately, the thinking of this group was that if they did not lower their terms and conditions someone else would, resulting in reduced growth.

Regrettably, the continued dysfunction within this group has led to further erosion in terms and conditions for the same airplanes and no matter how unionised the workforce may become, the management has established a solid foundation to reduce terms and conditions further.

Unionising your current group is too little too late.

Thank you KABOY

That was the ethos of one Gerry McGowan, Managing Director of Impulse. He would continually remind his pilots of this fact at every opportunity and, like mice behind the Pied Piper, they followed. With this brainwashing,emerged the original "low cost model pilot into Australia".

I guess you could say Gerry was a pioneer, unfortunately, only Sand dune Sam and your good self realised it ! :(

KABOY
Which regional airlines demise was that ?

The most "devilish" of the "details" is the minimum guarantee which would be unlivable for even single persons in SIN based upon the recently posted budgets.

When QF pilots went to J*Asia for the start up they were offered a similar deal and when hours dropped they really suffered and 'promised' commands did not materialize for years.

Can you live on the minimum pay?????????????????????????

I do believe, I do believe, I do...
 

Walter, been thinking the same thing and think you've hit the nail on the head.

Crewing only a few aircraft, at least initially, makes for inefficiencies and the need to overcrew to cover for sickness, training and early resignations is exacerbated by the small base size when trying to maintain a schedual. Traditionally you can cover these positions from another source as would be available in a larger company however with such a small start up overcrewing is the only real answer so in the first few years you would have to expect much lower than the 890 hrs. Perhaps somewhere in the order of 600 hrs would be optimistic in the startup year and maybe max 740 hrs (890/6*5) for the following year.

Either way I would not believe anything they may promise and ensure I could survive on base pay as many at Qantas Mainline have learnt the hard way.

Mud

Whiskery
 

Well thank you very much Whiskery.

I had done a lot of work with my therapist towards supressing memories surrounding that name. :rolleyes: .....until you brought it to the fore again.
:}

My sincerest apology Otto.

Try a cardboard effigy and use it as a dart board...................worked for me with Abeles and Hawke.
A lot cheaper and more satisfying than therapy!:ok: