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QF piot retrenchments
At todays AIPA meeting the company has said that 65 SOs will be retrenched unless AIPA (the pilots) can come up with concessions. One idea been that the next pay increase will be halved from 4% to 2%.
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At todays AIPA meeting the company has said that 65 SOs will be retrenched unless AIPA (the pilots) can come up with concessions. One idea been that the next pay increase will be halved from 4% to 2%. Here's an idea - why not enter discussions with Qantas and see if they can up the number of redundancies to 130 so the rise can be reduced to zero. |
Do QF pilots across the board have a "return" clause in the EBA. I ask because at my company we are approx 30 pilots overstacked. The only thing stopping redundancies is that any retrenched pilot must be offered their old job back for a period of 5 years before any other newbie is hired. The only reason we haven't seen retrenchments over here is because it would decimate the cadetship. Something that the giant ego's at the top have invested millions in!
What affect would retrenchments at QF have on the QF cadetship? Or don't they care? Ooops, probably answered my own question on that one! |
I really hope that if these redundancies are unavoidable AIPA can drag it out long enough so that all the SO's have finished probation....otherwise they dont get the 6 months notice...
Fingers crossed.... |
Krusty, yes that was a clause in the last EBA.
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Which AIPA meeting was that? Is that one of the roadshows AIPA were speaking of? Or was it an an internal AIPA / Company meeting?
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Why don't Qantas offer transfers to the expanding Jet-star. Aust/NZ/Singas/Nam. even on contracts similar to the visa's offered to foreigners.
Then again if 737's didn't go across the Pond, 767 frieght contracts were kept and 330's were not sent elsewhere there might be jobs for everyone currently employed and no talk redundencies, pay cuts (which are actually back pays to level with the last five years inflation) or significantly reduced hours flying, assignment of all Annual leave and Long service leave. Rocket science:ugh: |
Another concession. A bit like "a seat at the negotiating table." What a way to manage the surplus.:ugh::ugh:
How about give more aircraft to Jetstar and the blokes being made redundant might have a chance at an opportunity there if they choose to pay for their training.:ugh: The thin edge of the jetstar wedge is slowly being driven deeper and deeper. On a slightly brighter note, I see it was reported elsewhere, that Jetstar has seen real improvements in the Japan loads and yields. We all look forward to their continued growth and ultimate movement of the sectors back to qantas mainline services. Who would have thought Jetstar growing such routes so that the qantas product can expand.:ouch::{ "I cannot believe it. It's all over." |
Bosses will have to walk a fine line The ban on adverse actions is a significant part of the Fair Work Act, write Alex Manos and Nick Ruskin Many aspects of the new industrial relations law have been hotly debated over the last 18 months but some “sleeping giants” have quietly escaped comment. The prohibition on adverse actions and the enforcement of the of the discrimination laws took effect on July 1 and are sure to influence the way decision making is conducted within businesses and organisations. For employers, an adverse action occurs if an employee is dismissed, discriminated against or suffers from an alteration of position. The action must have occurred because of an employee's right under an industrial instrument, workplace law or because of an inquiry or complaint made about their employment. For a claim to be made out, there must be a link between the adverse action and the workplace right. Consider this example. An employee is appointed as harassment officer under an enterprise agreement. The employee is later terminated and told her role has been made redundant. The employee believes one of the reasons for her termination is the appointment as harassment officer. The employee would be able to bring a claim in the Federal Court under the new adverse action laws and seek compensation and potentially, reinstatement. The adverse action laws are broad in many ways. They enable employees to bring claims even where the alleged action has not yet occurred and is merely organised or being threatened. If the matter proceeds to a court hearing, the onus of proof is shifted to the employer to prove the reason for the claimed action was a lawful one. Interim injunctions may be issued preventing the employer proceeding with its actions pending a full hearing of the claim. Consider another example. An employee makes an inquiry to his or her employer about overtime rates. Several months later, the employer begins organising a transfer of the employee to an alterate location permitted under the employee's contract. The employee believes a reason for the transfer is because of the overtime enquiry If the employee is able to satisfy a court, among other things, that he or she has a serious case to be tried and the balance of conveniences favours the the orders sought then the court may issue and interim injunction preventing the transfer until the matter can be determined at a final hearing. The adverse action in this case would be a threat or organisation of the transfer to the alternative location and the workplace rights would be the inquiry about the terms of employment as they affect overtime. This protection represents a drastic change to the scope of workplace protection and the type and timing of applications brought. Employers will need to ensure they can justify any decision even before it has been implemented, should this be required. Breaches of these provisions may result in reinstatement, uncapped compensation and penalties of up to $33,000 a breach. Any person, regardless of remuneration level, is eligible to use the protections. Many businesses and organisations will be unaware that actions of discrimination under the Fair Work Act 2009 may now attract a civil penalty. While the prohibitions in the act closely reflect the equal opportunity laws in each state, preventing discrimination for prohibited reasons, they will allow the Fair Work Ombudsman to initiate prosecutions against those who engage in discrimination. This will allow the Fair Work Ombudsman to initiate civil prosecution against an employer. A Finding of discrimination may require an employer to reinstate the employee, pay uncapped compensation and pay a civil penalty of up to $33,000 a contravention. The workplace Ombudsman (the Fair Work Ombudsman's predecessor) has demonstrated its capacity to enforce workplace laws effectively. The new general protection have been overshadowed by public focus on other aspects of the act but they have not been lost on the unions, which have indicated a readiness to use these new rights with full effectiveness. The general protection are sure to leave their mark on the industrial landscape. Alex Manon is a senior associate and Nick Ruskin a partner at DLA Philips Fox Source: Australian Financial Review, July 8, 2009 |
Dragon man,
It's a long way before any retrenchment ocurrs in mainline. One departments intent (read forward planning) takes some time to filter thru to that of another. What some departments forward planning contingencies shall be would also result from what concessions are available from AIPA at the present time. Best explained as "what concessions we get will, determine the way forward". Or, if we (read they) don't get the concessions we seek, we may just have to activate the the J* / Mainline MOU. |
Mstr Caution, those numbers were from Flight Ops to AIPA. They are not a figment of my imagination. It was discussed at yesterdays com meeting and will be further discussed at the road shows.
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Before either of these draconian measures are even half considered, would management care to confirm that all exectutive bonuses will be eschewed until further notice.
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This entire affair reeks of Ian Oldmeadow yet again.
There have been many downturns in QF's history, why suddenly does this one require 160 S/O's to be sacked ? I am wondering if this is the beginning of the process to thin out the ranks to prepare for the massive surplus that will occur when the B787 arrives and is not flown by mainline pilots |
Dragon Man,
I am not questioning your statement. I have no doubt these figures were presented by managament. However, the J* / Mainline MOU is "dormant". The company has not yet indicated activating the transfer of mainline to J*. I would expect an activation of the MOU to J* whilst "they" continune to recruit prior to any redundancies in Mainline. There are redundancy protection clauses inserted in the MOU. The most recent SO's to join mainline are not covered by the MOU as they were not employed at the time the MOU was signed. However those with more seniority in mainline could utilise the MOU transfer to protect those more junior. Already highlighted in another thread is the fact "preserved" seniority positions in Jetstar would allow mainliners to transfer to A330 Captain positions. So my statement, reduncies are a way off yet. Is with reference to contigencies such as MOU transfer, reduction to incremental pay increases or any other contingency yet to be announced or negotiated. |
Unfortunately, redundancies are an unfortunate fact of life in the economic cycle. Perhaps mainline is no longer the holy grail of aviation that some thought it once was.
Why not consider applying for a job (on your own merits) and stop trying to hide the skirt of an MOU. What makes you think that just because you are a QF pilot it automatically entitles you yo a seat with a separate organisation? Get on with it and leave the sheltered workshop. That is how 90 percent of the general population live. |
Why not consider applying for a job (on your own merits) and stop trying to hide the skirt of an MOU. What makes you think that just because you are a QF pilot it automatically entitles you yo a seat with a separate organisation? Get on with it and leave the sheltered workshop. separate It's all an Illusion- Illusion:= |
With your comments being so educated and detailed Illusion, could you enlighten us to how the remaining 10% of the general population live their lives?
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I feel sorry fo the QF guys as a matter of fact illusion...the question as to whether QF is the last bastion of good pay and conditions is superflous to the underlying issue...that being flying is being given away and transferred to other flying cost centers in the QF business to the detriment of those jobs in the core business..
How is it fair that pilots in New Zealand ( Jetconnect and Jetstar NZ) reap the rewards at the expense of Australian Qantas jobs? As for Jetstar..well there wouldn't be a Jetstar without QF. I dont wish to turn this into a QF versus Jetstar slanging match, however I'd be pretty p!ssed off if someone came in and undercut me by 40% and then I had to put up with management rubbing my nose in it....constantly.... |
Illusion -
The opposite is also true. Should redundancies ocurr at any time in J*, then the MOU affords transfer to mainline to the reserved seniority positions. Persons with a little more foresight sought these protections when the MOU was formulated years ago in profitable times to protect the interests of those in times like these. You obviously have no idea what conditions would cause mainline management to trigger the clause in the said MOU. As for a "separate organisation", your joking right? |
How is it fair that pilots in New Zealand ( Jetconnect and Jetstar NZ) reap the rewards at the expense of Australian Qantas jobs? |
At the risk of being seriously flamed, I'd like to expand of what I wrote above. The number 1 priority of a union is to survive, to continue to exist. It can only do this if it has financial members, and the more the better! When push comes to shove, it will always put it's own interests ahead of those of it's members. Most of the time these interests coincide, but occasionally some members will be 'sacrificed' in the interests of defending their turf and keeping the highest possible membership. Imagine if all these QF SO's who are facing the axe right now had been given the option to transfer to Jetstar Au, or Jetstar NZ, or Jetconnect (ok, not recruiting at the moment), or Jetstar Asia, or Vietnam? The redundancies would evaporate because some of the business units are experiencing expansion, while others are contracting (mainline). Unfortunately, the free transfer of labour between business units tends to be against the interests of the unions (turf protection) and hence they try and convince their members it is also against their interests. Members of the various unions should be demanding transfer provisions in their contract agreements. In my view, the only way this will succeed is if the unions talk to one another and draw up some boundary lines so that they can be assured of maintaining a sustainable level of membership, and hence survival of the union. You see, the unions are playing right into the hands of the senior management by pitting their members against those of the other unions, in the interests of survival of the union.
Declaration: I am not anti unionisation, I am a member of a pilot union myself. We just need to get them working more for the members and less for themselves. |
Well of course the S/O's could always go to Q/Link and fly the Dash - but they would have to do an interview, sim ride , IQ/Skills test and go to the bottom of the seniority list.........................Just like QLink drivers do!;)
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Aerostatic,
Your second post could not be further from the truth! AIPA has been pushing movement between sections of the group for years!:ugh: |
Missing Link, watch the change in attitude when the link announces an order of 4 C-Jets early 2010.
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http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...n/post_old.gif Yesterday, 11:46 #15 (permalink) illusion
Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 103 Unfortunately, redundancies are an unfortunate fact of life in the economic cycle. Perhaps mainline is no longer the holy grail of aviation that some thought it once was. Why not consider applying for a job (on your own merits) and stop trying to hide the skirt of an MOU. What makes you think that just because you are a QF pilot it automatically entitles you yo a seat with a separate organisation? Get on with it and leave the sheltered workshop. That is how 90 percent of the general population live. Illusion, Apply for a job on your own merits? Mate, we all did when we got into Qantas. Jetstar is NOT a separate organisation, it is written on the side of the aircraft (QANTAS GROUP)... how is that separate? Sheltered workshop? Perhaps it is, however NONE of the junior pilots in QF are sheltered, we have had to work hard for what we acheived. Speaking purely for my group on the ground school, we are all ex GA (upto 10 years experience) REX check and training, Military from RAAF to British Airforce, Army etc... If we are all chopped, well, we have all battled to get to where we got to, we no doubt will continue to battle to get our next job and it's likely we will get one before you finish your GFPT. |
One of the rumours flying around now is that the two new A330's supposedly going to Mainline at the end of this year will now be re-routed to J*, along with a current mainline airframe that was going to J* anyway.
This is all wrapped up in the delay of the 787. Instead of a net increase of one A330 to Mainline, they may have a net loss of one airframe. This will mean a further surplus of mainline pilots as a direct result of the perceived need to expand Jetstar International. Please don't tell me Jetstar is a separate airline. It is only separate when it suits them. AIPA had better be very careful with what they do with the Sale Act case. It may be the only bit of leverage they have left. |
So the question becomes
How many QF pilots will take up an MOU spot with Jetstar to save the jobs of the most junior S/O's? And, of those, how many would be prepared to resign from Qantas altogether so that they may take a Jetstar command? I might suggest that those who would do this already have availed themselves of the opportunity. Keg? |
Agreed, Kremin.
Whether or not Jetstar is "separate" from QF mainline heavily depends upon which direction the money is flowing at the time....... |
Just flew to Singapore from Cairns on JQ.
The flight crew got off in Darwin. Three pilots got on, two at the controls, one in the back to position to Singapore and fly back to Darwin. Did I mention the flight to Cairns from Singapore a week or so earlier? Flight crew change in Darwin. New flight crew flew to Cairns, stayed with the airplane from the 0800 arrival until the midday departure back to Darwin. As above, they got off on arrival Darwin, three pilots got on... This is the future of Qantas I see. How it happened, I have no idea. |
The future of Qantas is...........there is no future. Get out while you can. Qantas has not been the "Holy Grail" of aviation at least since the beginning of 2000. Jetstar is expanding at the expense of Qantas and if you mainline pilots can't see that then you are completely blind.:ugh::ugh:
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quote from PPRuNE 2019
The future of Jetstar is...........there is no future. Get out while you can. Jetstar has not been the "Holy Grail" of aviation at least since the beginning of 2010. Jetstar-Lite is expanding at the expense of Jetstar and if you mainline pilots can't see that then you are completely blind.:ugh::ugh: |
It is important for every pilot who is available to go to the current round of QF FltOps management/AIPA briefings. You will get the facts and the suggested solutions to avoid redundancies but this is definitely not the forum to discuss them. The AIPA e-mail and survey that comes out today are important and I urge every QF pilot to return the survey promptly as the results will determine which of the solutions are used.
Bypass ratio, you obviously haven't been listening to the latest comments by Joyce about Jetstar having nearly reached the limit of its expansion. |
The first Mainline pilot redundancy will signal the beginning of the recovery. I've told this story a couple of times previously on PPRUNE but in April '94 they gathered a bunch of the cadets to Sydney and told us that employment with QF was 3-5 years away so go and enjoy life and if we were still available when QF called in that time frame then well and good. QF employed the first cadet two months later and all 80+ of us were in by the following January. Two years ago when QF was forecasting unprecedented training over the next few years a number of us on the line started to get very nervous. They've predicted that a couple of times before- late 2000, early 2001 was the one time. If Ansett hadn't fallen over they would have been spectacularly wrong. Another time was just before SARs and things got pretty quiet post that too. QF generally start employing and promoting crew 3-6 months too late, why should their decisions be any different now. Waren9, not sure what you're asking me about. Will I take an MOU slot? No. Taking a 20% pay cut to do what I'm doing now won't thrill the missus or the bank manager. Would I do it to save a S/O? Not sure how that actually works out. I've said my piece elsewhere about how I felt I could support S/Os. All that aside, given my place in the seniority pile there are plenty of guys that could take advantage of the MoU for a promotion and actually earn more than they do now. Will they do it? Dunno, I've been on leave for the last 8 1/2 weeks so I haven't spoken to anyone on the line for quite a while. Remember too it was only 18 months or so ago that the then CP would not release any QF crew to fly under the MoU, despite more than a couple wanting to take that option. |
How perceptive DirectAnywhere, and I see that Keg picked up on your thinking......
By the time the public service, beaurocratic management style of Qantas get around to initiating redundancies, with the oncosts that will occur, the economic recovery will be in full swing! The GOL as proposed by Ian Woods must be the answer, as one section of the Group employing whilst Qantas is contemplating redundancies would have to be the height of commercial stupidity. Role on..... |
ROH111
Apply for a job on your own merits? Mate, we all did when we got into Qantas. Jetstar is NOT a separate organisation, it is written on the side of the aircraft (QANTAS GROUP)... how is that separate? Even though we pass 4 cyclics a year in the Qantas sim building and having the flying kangaroo painted on the tail of the Dash8 - we're still treated like separate pilots working for a completely separate company. The door swings both ways. Bring on the GOL! |
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if Jetstar were to start making FO's redundant and mainline were still hiring, do you think those FOs would be tranferred into SO jobs with no questions asked and no retesting? |
I dont see how a GOL is possible with QF group companies....how does that work when you have NZ based operations operating under a NZ AoC and then want to merge that with an Australian company.
aerostatic..I dont disagree with your succinct summation of unions, however if the shoe was on the other foot and Air NZ were farming flying out to Australian companies at the expense of Kiwi jobs...well, all hell would break loose in NZ wouldnt it? waren9..not all pilots see undercutting a mainline brand in order to fill there own logbook with jet hours as a reasonable solution these days.. |
Yea thanks for that Mr.Hat :rolleyes:- I was referring to the Qantas GROUP and any of the subsids that could be substituted for that word space. Which one doesn't matter - the principle is the same.
My point was that if the situation was reversed with any of the other group airlines, mainline wouldn't just accept those made redundant straight into SO positions without any retesting. |
With the recent changes making the cadetship participants having to retest before going in i'm surprised you aren't made to retest as part of your recurrent training!
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Spot on Dragun! I doubt that mainline would be so quick to take on a heap of Jetstar or Eastern guys in a hurry if it was the other way round! Why should mainline guys feel its is their god given right to take jobs elsewhere? Typical Q selfish mentality:yuk:
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