Qantas mainline made their bed in the 90's and now they are screaming they dont like it.

Notam (and Dragun), you have no idea. The policies regarding transfer between various parts of the group are set by management, and no-one else.
Try drawing the gun first before shooting your toes off.

It appears to me there are a few people here who seem to be somewhat deluded as to the reality of the Qantas group. Qantas, Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate are all separate companies, hence no reciprocal employment entitlements exist between the four (with exception to the QF/JQ MOU), in both good times and bad. That's the way QF wants it to be....

Who remembers when the 30 or so Impulse pilots were retrenched a few years back? Basically they were booted (with a right of return clause), and given the opportunity to apply for employment at Eastern. Employment was conditional upon successful completion of the Eastern recruitment process at the time (Sim + interview) and positions being available.

In order to maintain consistency, I can not see why it would (or should) be any different for any other pilot in any of the group companies (under the current circumstances). Sure, give them a shot - however they will still need to complete whatever processes that the target airline requires (assuming there are vacancies).

From what I understand, Eastern and Sunstate are VERY bottom-heavy at the moment.

Lots of luck!

The number of $8 million to be saved by the Second Officer retrenchments has been mentioned.:confused:
IF this can be saved by the Pilot body by LWOP etc [as has been suggested] then really we only need about 30 Captains to take LWOP to cover that!:}
How many over 60s are there??:E

Kremin,

Before you accuse others of incorrect statements I will spell out a FACT for you. In around 2001 a QF company which was being closed down sought assistance to redeploy it's staff(pilots). Mainline(management) indicated that the greatest hurdle in this was AIPA,FACT!

Industrial issues sit on both sides, don't think it is management. Feel free to message me and I will enlighten you with numerous details of some key players within the QF management who indicated this.

I don't see what the big problem is?

A pilot takes a leave of absence from QF and applies to JQ. If they meet the entry requirements and pass the JQ skills test and interview, then they are offered a position at a base as required by JQ at the bottom of the JQ seniority list. If they don't like the T&C or basing, they go elsewhere.

At the end of their QF leave of absence, they either go back to QF if there is a position available, stay with JQ, or go elsewhere.

It was reported that JQ is forecast 10% growth this financial year, QF declining 2-5%. Seems the prospects for career progression would be much better at JQ anyway. If you are near the bottom of the QF list, you are likely to remain there for a very very long time.

I wish those facing the axe at QF, the very best in being able to secure employment in other parts of the group if that is what they want.

I cannot believe people on the forum would rather see you thrown out on the street. Very sad the pent up anger people such as Tassie Devil and KABOY have - must be a real hoot to fly with them.

Please dont concern yourself about how I am in the cockpit, I dont really feel bitter . You can research any of my posts and you will see the theme of everything I have complained about is the attitude that the Qantas group owes mainline pilots a job if they are not wanted. They can have an interview and thats it, no promises just the way AIPA wanted it. Thats all I have ever said!

Marvel,

I welcome the opportunity to fly with you on the A 330 some time very soon, then you can pass judgement on me.

For those who haven't yet gone to a briefing sesion, the problem with the MOU is that Jetstar is refusing to take any mainline pilots because the KRudd/Gillard Industrial legislation that came into effect 1Jul09 requires for conditions to be transferred along with the staff, i.e. Jetstar would be forced to pay QF pay rates and all the other conditions of employment. Legal advice to both QF management & AIPA indicates that there may be a way around this hurdle but it is taking time - in the meantime JQ keeps recruiting for its Darwin base. At this critical stage, eveyone should be attending the briefings rather than slagging off at management or AIPA based on a total lack of the facts.

Joyce and Strambi are aware of the adverse PR effects of JQ recruiting externally while QF mainline pilots face the sack and have indicated support to find a way around the IR legislation.

Kaboy, the FACT of the matter is that AIPA would have no input into the recruitment of pilots from outside mainline unless it was proposed that they take positions out of seniority i.e. coming in as FO's and Captains.

AIPA does not set the recruitment standards or is it involved in any of that side of things.

If these pilots were to be deployed as FO's in mainline, that would be an industrial situation and I can see why AIPA would get involved, as would be the same if the situation was reversed.

A possible fix
 

Dear AIPA,
Suggest you go slow with this one. By the time the QF (public service-like) bureaucrats come up with a fix, we'll be out of this mess and there will be no need to lay-off anyone.
Might actually be the first time in QF's history that it catches the employment pendulum at the right time and we won't have to then live with the consequences of making a faustian deal in haste.

Meanwhile nearly 2000 QF employees are being made redundant in various other parts of the business.

Little wonder that Qantas are growing anywhere BUT mainline.

Wake up boys and girls, you are only a protected species so long as the zoo survives. Now is the time to signal a real willingness to engage in structural reform not to quote decades old EBA clauses in blind hope that the economic winds will blow more favourably.

The path that AIPA are taking you down may very well turn out to be somewhere in the garden.

Capt Kremin

Where did I write that the policies were written by anyone other than management? You've obviously completely missed the point. I wasn't arguing which agreements are in place, what they are or where they came from - I was arguing that the consistency of the situation is lacking if pilots want to transfer between group companies.

Try drawing the gun first before shooting your toes off.

Anyone remember a small Qantas group company (jet operator) that was wound up and what happened to its employees? Hello Southern. Pilots were not good enough for mainline but fine for Cathay and Dragon. Go figure. The biggest impediment to successfully applying to a Qantas group company is being in a Qantas group company. There are plenty of Qantas group trained pilots plying their trade in direct competition to their old alma mater. This situation looks like the first time that mainliners are going to be on the receiving end of the bastardisation that is policy at QF HQ. The only difference is they now have motivation and numbers to change the bastardisation policy for the better. The bigger question is do they have the leadership to make this happen.

I say let them burn long john.
So many outdated eba provisions, flying near 900 hours a year, the ability to have your days off infringed, read blown out of the water, having silly flight time limitations that enable lhr-bkk, bkk-lhr 3 man crew but then silly 4 man down to oz rather than paxiing someone home, and redundancy entitlemnts that make it near impossible to sack anyone at the top. Its little wonder that others outside the organisation, deemed it fit to correct this ridiculous situation by negotiating contracts to operate aircraft in a much more favourable manner (even though no one's job was under threat!) so that these draconian conditions could be erradicated foreever. Good one hero.

Dragun, I was responding primarily to Kaboy who seems to believe that AIPA controls QF recruitment.

Kremin,

You appear to have contradicted yourself between your first post attacking Dragun and then myself.

Recruitment policies were not discussed in management discussions in 2001.

If you want facts I suggest you contact me, rather than make assertions.

So, what did you expect?

Direct entry at the bottom of the seniority list?

Or did you go for broke like the legends of the amalgamation period and demand datal seniority?

Tell us KA BOY. What were your expectations and why do you now feel so bitter?

Is the answer AIPA pushing the contracting out line, and get back the flying from Jetconnect, Cobham, EFA etc?

Though in saying that, those guys loose out??:confused:

The venom being spat is understandable, Australians always can be relied upon to do it to each other when envy is involved.

Have any of the vitriolic posters here considered that the people likely affected by this potential turn of events were nowhere near the company or union until the recent past? They are real young people with families in many cases doing the same hard luck yards in GA. They were fortunate (or good enough) to get selected and now face an uncertain time. They didn't create the division but you sure maintain it.

You make Oldmeadow's job so easy..

Not being good enough, Qantas regional pilots had to watch the non Qantas regional pilots getting selected as if they already had a seniorority number at Qantas, like 10 a month to our 1 in 5 years. Then they wind us up and we got a token interview wich 1 or 2 got in. Thats how the group takes care of its own . How ever because your mainline you got more of a right to any job anywhere in the group. Every argument your using was used by us , it made no difference then and it should make none now.

Training is not free, and airlines would rather train one pilot than two.

Ah you have to love the 'tall poppie' attitude of aussie's.

All we are discussing is how the QF boys can save about 100 blokes/girls from losing their job, but some cannot help themselves from starting a bashing match against the Qf pilots and their award.

I know it might be stating the obvious ... but... If any of the people were not with QF they would be sitting next to you, regeardless of where they came from, we all do the same **** and are just happy to get home each day !

Big picture everyone

Imagine if it was you after just joining !!!:ugh:

Use what ever names you want, just keep in mind your asking a pilot group to support your idea of looking after a few brothers who are not needed in mainline when the same senerio was reveresed not that long ago and the silence was deafening.
I'm about finished here , its been good thearapy . I personally left a long time ago and should have listened to the 89er's earlier and got out years before I did . Thanks for the advise and yes you were right.
Good luck to THE GROUP !

I gotta agree. Here we are talking about the possible retrenchment of pilots who were still in school when some of these incidents supposedly occurred, and people are willing to stick the knife into them because they happen to be members of big bad AIPA. Get a grip!

Mainline pilots are not expecting to enter VB, or Tiger or even Q-Link. Jetstar however is a different kettle of fish. Qantas, Jetstar and AIPA pilots are signatories to an MOU. That is the difference. If I was a Judge trying to decide whether or not there was a connection between the airlines and the MOU was waved under my nose, it would be hard to conclude otherwise.

It is a crap document, however it exists and it is legal. Jetstar pilots are flying aircraft gifted to the airline from mainline. One day those aircraft are slated to return to mainline. The latest mainline seniority list was just published with a stack of Jetstar MOU slots on it.

There is a link between the two that cannot be denied. Therefore if mainline pilots are retrenched and not able to take up slots in Jetstar, I can only conclude that what an AIPA VP told me will be true. I don't want to get inflammatory, because I know this board has a wide readership, but lets us say that the gloves will be well and truly off.

bareknuckles
 

Gotta wonder what it's gonna take for team Bazza to realise the time has passed to get the gloves off.

If my source is correct then the membership should be concerned that the AIPA EXEC stymied a COM briefing this month from the Barrister actually conducting the QF Sale Act Case !

Talk about soft! They can't handle the truth!:mad:

Would the MOU help those who are facing retrenchment? Those facing retrenchment would not have been in mainline when the MOU was signed and that would make them ineligible.

Some of the posts here are beyond belief. Y generation predominately by the looks of the childish remarks posted by "professionals". Im using that term extremely loosely!.

Best of luck to the descent guys affected.

Doug.

As a pilot I can say that I love my job, but hate the aviation industry!!!
Any wanna be pilots listen up - if you think that you will one day be a rich captain flying for Qantas, you are wrong. If you got in to QF right now, it would be at least 15 years, if not more, before you get a look at a command position (if there are any QF guys that think/know I am wrong please correct me).

I believe that QF will shrink and only provide a service on high yielding routes with lots of business class flyers. The rest of it will go to jetstar, where the salaries a significantly lower. You also have to pay for your endorsement. Dont get me started on this.

I pray for the day when young guys and gals cringe at the thought of becoming a pilot and joining this industry. Its only when this happens that there will be less pilots to go around and then we can maybe enjoy good conditions like other industries.

Sorry about the negativity. Dont mean to upset anyone. Just venting.

Pretty close to the money at the moment. Took me 13 1/2 for a Sydney base. Some guys went to AO in Cairns after 9-11 years but there is no way I could have done that to OIC home command. Some recent guys who took Perth based 737 commands also did it in 9-11 years I think. MEL 767 command was a little more junior than mine but not by much.

As to how long it will take those that join now, it depends on whether we have some sort of GOAL in the future. If we don't then I fear the rest of your assessment may be spot on.

Correct Lookleft,
However if eligible pilots took up the MOU positions then the result would be the same ,would it not?
Saving pilots from possible retrenchment.

I think the idea is that if he keeps his F/O slot he's not taking an S/O slot from someone who would otherwise be retrenched...

Quote from all the old people I know...


"ooohh well..."


Ever noticed that?

What happens to seniority??
 

I know a few turboprop drivers who have recently been employed by Jetstar. (Starting this month and next month) If anyone from mainline goes across to Jetstar will they be junior to Mr/Mrs Turboprop who joined the company earlier??

The people i know at Jetstar all reckon the people transfering will be regarded as lowest seniority??

All evidence to the contrary! :}

You mean taken completely out of context like you have done? I suppose I should allow for poor comprehension skills when I make a statement. My comments were in direct response to lemel's post who basically asked if his assessment of time to command in QF was accurate. My numbers were to illustrate how long it is currently is and some of the variables.

Then again, you taking my comments out of context are consistent with how you've taken that former classic S/Os. I'm not going to bother going through that here though I do note the lack of comment along your line of thought (labeling him a moron and taking him to task over six years of SYD-PER-SYD in the back seat, etc) on Qrewroom.

Only a moron would not consider the possibility of protecting those in rank as well as protecting those who are potentially going to be made redundant. Protecting the latter protects the former and vice versa.

There is moronic behaviour around, no doubt. I just reckon you're looking in the wrong place to find it pigs. Try a mirror perhaps. :E :}

High-bypass. There are a number of 'reserved' seniority numbers on the J* seniority list for QF pilots employed when the MoU went active- 7 in every 20 slots new slots after that date would have the potential to be taken up by QF pilots. These reserved numbers are only able to be allocated to pilots employed at the date of the MoU and new QF pilots would not be able to avail themselves of the MoU slots. Same applies for J* pilots employed after that date wanting to take up the reserved J* seniority numbers on the QF list. Depending on the deal negotiated, any junior S/O who goes to J* instead of being made redundant would likely be on the bottom of the J* pile.

pigsarse, big man. You take something someone else says on a named forum, but yet choose to reply on a (un)anonymous forum, why is that? It really take guts.
Stand up like a man and name yourself or retract & pray the individual chooses not to sue you for defamation.

Yeah those lowly inexperienced Turboprop drivers - goddamm- flying around at the most favourable levels, carrying unlimited amounts of fuel, flying from ILS to ILS in brand new machines with the latest technnology - not having to worry about much.

Some of the current turboprop drivers have quite a bit of expereince on some of those fandangled planes with no them thar airscrews - they have just been unfortunately caught up in the GFC.

Careful on the comments, the bigger they get the easier they get- try no to convince yourself otherwise.

I wonder how much money the new website cost?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the MOU between J* and QF only apply to those QF pilots who started on or prior to December 2004 (pretty much like Keg mentioned without dates)? In other words, the MOU has zero effect on this situation regardless of where they place in seniority? Any transfer would have to be under a whole other agreement or worst case, direct entry.

Right?

That is correct Dragun. I am working from memory here, but the MOU only applies to "eligible pilots", the definition of which is something similar to your post. Pretty much those employed in either company as at the date of execution. So any transfers of recently hired QF SO's could not be under the MOU and if they tried to do it there would be grievances. The reason is that the MOU entitles you to slot in at a reserved seniority number, whereas if you went in direct entry you would of course start at the bottom.

MB