What is actually wrong in the appointment of the new CEO?. Has anyone got the names of people that they know would be a better choice?, if so why?

Nobody asked me...I'd be happy to take all that dough!

Let me ask you that question Genex.
Will you take industrial action to change the JQ EBA?

You see Genex, in all your wisdom you fail to recognise that AIPA or any other industrial body, is not a living being per say but a collective voice of its MEMBERS.

So how is it then that AIPA can call for industrial action when it does not represent JQ pilots as members?

How does AIPA gain a seat at the JQ negotiating table when the very people it seeks to represent turn a blind eye?

Mate you cant have it both ways.

As for steak knives the only one you need to worry about is the one your management is willing to put in your back.

7% of all employees? but a vast majority of pilots in QF! Comparing the percentage of AIPA members with total staff is quite frankly meaningless.

ElPerro, very well put
 

I was thinking along the same lines myself. It does go to show that some on here really have no idea.
Yes guys, operational crew make up a big part of any airline however it takes many to make it happen. Dont think for one moment you are the only ones at the sharp end.:ok:

Tenretni

I am well aware that a union is the collective voice of its members. Have been a union member for a very long time.... and at times such as 1989 and the 19 years following, that was at no small cost....I'm not a JQ pilot but if I was I'd be still bruised from the battering and patronizing that the collective voce of QF pilots (via AIPA) has been giving their "lesser" brothers in JQ for years.

I would have thought that the simplest way of AIPA getting back in the saddle of truly wanting to represent all QF drivers is for AIPA to mount a "shock and awe" wildcat campaign to get a scope clause in the QF EBA(s) so all flying was covered by the one protected datal (from date of first joining a QF Group airline, past or present) seniority list...and this would include QantasLink and JQ as well. A 72 hour strike that grounded every jet with a Rat on its tail would be a good start to see the collective will of AIPA at work. If you were united as one then there'd be no sanctions.

Or....do nothing....except slowly work with the AFAP to build a decent single union, starting with tech and safety issues and let it happen gently, not as an overt AIPA grab for the 787 jobs and the destruction of JQ. What you need to see is that sensible pilots are able to balance and trade off lifestyle, future opportunities, pay, equipment and command opportunities. QFLink and JQ offer alternatives to the legacy model. Why force the dull greyness of uniformity on all...especially when "all" means a bunch of pilots no AIPA member would invite home to dinner?

If in addition to joining with the AFAP at a tech and safety level....and here we return to the thread....the Chairman of AIPA could ask the incoming CEO "how can the Qantas pilots best support new jobs, more promotions, more destinations and profitability?"....then you could get somewhere. That would be an act of some statesmanship. Or there's the alternative.........

All these motherhood statements about the inclusive nature of the AIPA and how rosy things would be under the one umbrella is just a smokescreen.

With QF mainline having 4 times the number of pilots as JQ, if the sh!t hits the fan, where would a vote by AIPA fall. Certainly not on the side of the JQ pilots.

Comments in the courts (Canberra) several years ago by the AIPA reflect the true, and as Genex says, the "patronizing" attitude of some of the AIPA executive and members - they despise Jetstar and everything it does. They see JQ pilots as pariahs taking their flying.

Any move to get JQ pilots under AIPA coverage is a HUGE mistake. I wonder if KEG would have the same attitude if he was in Jetstar looking at things from different coloured glasses?

The AFAP is not the perfect answer, but in the current industrial climate, a more preferable option for JQ pilots.

Led, I've been banging on about pilot unity for much longer than J* has been in existence.

This is the AIPA burst re Joyce as CEO. It should take care of genex's concerns. :rolleyes: :ugh:

Qantas in Better Shape?
 

A drovers dog could have run Qantas over the last 10 years with a commonsense approach.
It would be in a lot better shape than it is now if someone else other than Dixon has run the place.
Dixons success is myth.

G'Day Keg,

Just wondering where does the Qantaslink pilot group fit into the overall scheme of things, considering at this stage they don't have any jets to bargin with.

Cheers

Seniority wise? It's the stated aim of AIPA that all pilots employed by the group go onto a group seniority list. That way it doesn't matter whether you start as a Dash 8 F/O, a J* A320 F/O or a mainline S/O you can ultimately bid for a 744 command, A380 command, 787 command, etc, etc. Obviously there are some issues to get across in terms of ensuring that people don't feel hard done by.

As quick example, I don't think we should consider datal seniority to fly the 787- which genex suggested we should do. The reason I say 'no' to that is that I know that most J* drivers wouldn't have the seniority to fly them. There are currently 1100 QF drivers with start dates prior to 1995. I wonder how many J* drivers have that sort of seniority? (As a side issue, this highlights genex's lack of thinking in blind attempts to take a shot at QF drivers. He throws up a daft suggestion that would see the mainline pilot group ostracised by everyone- CEO, shareholders, public and most importantly, those that we seek to work with as colleagues.

So the way to solve the 'group opportunity list' is to quarantine your own flying first and then open it up to the wider group after all your current crew have had the opportunity to bid for it. Current regional guys and gals get first crack at regional commands. They get access to mainline commands on datal seniority after all current mainline crew have passed it up. However if a J* command came up then that goes datal after all J* crew have passed it up. Anyone who joins after a particular date is pure datal seniority no matter where you start your flying career in the group.

How close are we to that now? Not very. Why? The Qantas 'group'- and many others like Led Zepplin and genex- don't want their pilots being that collegiate and working together. They much prefer us running each other down in a bid to see who can do things more cheaply.

Thanks Keg,

Hopefully in time, all will be resolved.

Cheers.

Keg,

I like the idea of a group list where we can all pick and choose our job discriptions so to speak, but I fail to see where this would benefit the JQ pilots....

At present most JQ pilots who have started in the past 2 years will have a command in the next 2 years and those who won't get one can take a FO spot on the 787..

At present why would a JQ pilot go to QF when they could only take a S/O positon (other than for the cash)

If JQ pilolts could transfer to mainline and collect mainline salaries I see this as the only way this will work!! (don't think this will ever happen)

Also, I believe the group list would only benefit QF pilots (careers not cash) at the present time....

hi genex, i think keg is closer to the mark. we are both ignorant, not arrogant. sorry if the crack about booster seats bothered you for some reason.... lighten up and get a merged seniority list under one group, something that will never happen in the f/a ranks due to a short range outlook mentality

Congratulations, Alan Joyce - you have big shoes to fill.

Farewell, Geoff Dixon. Although you were not as touchy-feely as some here would like, history will come to show you as one of the top ten airline executives of all time - you were magnificent.

Did you get a free pack of "Manpons" for that wonderful statement FGD135?

Dixon's Shoes
 

Are a size 7...not that big really.

There are about 17 J* pilots who joined before 1995.

Thanks Shot Nancy. Interesting numbers.

Muff, fair question. What's in it for the J* crew with a group list. The current captains? Probably very little. The current F/Os? Very little in the short term although they may like the opportunity to bid onto a different long haul (or short haul) fleet in 10-15 years time). What's in it for the QF crew? Current captains? Nil. Current F/Os? Bugger all although some would go. Current S/Os? Lots. They get the opportunity to get promotion before some person on the street. Given that they've been part of the group in a lot of cases for a few years I reckon that's OK. Keep in mind that we haven't yet drawn the line in the sand as to where the GOL starts. Current J* crew still get first access to the upgrade to captain but those not yet employed by J* with effect from (say) 1 Aug 08 will suddenly find themselves behind 2500 QF pilots in terms of the GOL. Of course this latter fact may explain why some of those not employed by J*- like Led and I think genex isn't either if I recall correctly- are so anti the GOL and pilots working together. It would mean that the upgrade they have in mind in three years time when they start with J* once they're finished with whoever they're with at the moment in 12 months time will now be behind the 2500 QF pilots and however many regional pilots who joined the group before they did. Of course they don't publicly state that but you can see it in the rabid way they attack any mere mention of pilot unity with QF mainline pilots.

A GOL does nothing for me either. I have my command training and assuming I knock it over then my life is pretty good. I see no need to consider J* in the short to medium term- unless someone makes me an offer I couldn't refuse! :ok:

So, pay and conditions then. Under a GOL you go to the pay and conditions you bid for. If I bid for a J* 787 command- once all the current J* crew have had the chance to knock it back- then I go on J* terms and conditions. If you bid for a mainline 744 F/O slot in a few years then you go on those terms and conditions.

However, personally I'd like to see pay and conditions ironed out across the group so that an A320 gig is the same as a 737 and no difference in terms and conditions between J* and QF for the 787. It may be a pipe dream but it's worth at least discussing and working towards. That may mean that QF drivers accept a little less, it may mean that J* drivers get a little more. It may mean that QF drivers get no less and J* drivers get a bit more again.

Nice one Keg....

Here's hoping anyway.....with the looming election for the JQ guys it wll be interesting to see how AIPA approach us to get us on board..

There is still a lot of sceptism when it comes to AIPA, especially after Ian Woods comments a few days ago in the Herald Sun..

What comments were they, Muff?

Keg I doubt that Jetstar will cop such huge pay rises! It's a long way up from Jetstar to Virgin not mention then to QF 73 wages.

this is an extract from the Herald Sun.


and:

Once again, AIPA is barely concealing the fact that 787 flying should be started by Qantas mainline.:=

Jetstar pilots should be under no allusion as to the intentions of the AIPA - and it has nothing to do with a mutual "love in".

More like a lube free shafting.:ugh:

So if JQ wanted, for all the very best of reasons, to hire DEC 777 Captains and F/Os next year to provide a chunk of the crew for the initial delivery group of 15 787s', AIPA wouldn't let them?

As for me, your humble servant Genex.....I have no desire to ever be on a QF seniority list and if I were ever lucky enough to fly a 787 I'd rather be trained by an experienced 777 training captain than a warmed over Qantas 767 driver.

However, the contingency is, as they say, an unlikely one. I am happily ensconced in my garden wondering whether to bother putting a new oil seal on my beloved rotary hoe.

Out of interest....given the published and anecdotal pay rates for QF S/Os, would they really want to move over to JQ? I am assuming that S/O time in any case wouldn't count as actual experience to get you directly into the left hand seat of a 320 and certainly not a 787.

I'd be guessing that JQ would want to see a QF MOU S/O (how about that for a bunch of acronyms?) put through his/her paces for 1500 hrs in the right seat of a 320 before letting them have any further career progression at all. Conceivably some 767 F/Os might want Cruise Captain jobs on the JQ 787 which would lead in time to 320 commands then eventually back to the JQ 787 left seat, years and years before they could ever get that job in QF mainline, if and when they ever get some 787s. But not, though, if the AIPA GOL list were ever to be implemented.

Back to the hoe.

Genex.....
 

Do you ever work?
All you do is stir the pot with comparatively nonsensical assertions.
For an outsider you seem to have opinions on everyhthing.
Opinions seemingly based on information you glean from the Sydney daily telegraph.
Was that a "Skanky Hoe"you were getting back to?

Ah Led. I knew you'd be along to take a poorly worded and out of context media statement and use it as an excuse to continue to expand that chip that resides firmly on your shoulder.

For the record, EBA8 states that it covers the flying of 787s in Qantas livery. It secures us as 'operators of the 787'. Anyone without a chip on their shoulder and some basic comprehension skills should be able to realise that this doesn't necessarily mean that we'd be operators of all of them. J* still get to crew their aircraft. :rolleyes:

Further, if you'd read into other discussions on these forums over the past few weeks there has been a number of contributors- myself included- who have discussed the wisdom of persisting with a tired and fuel thirsty domestic product in the 767 for the next five to six years when J* international is already flogging around on (supposedly) efficient A330s. It's no secret. Besides, I thought that you were previously of the mantra that the assets should go to where they get the best return? Surely replacing the 767 domestically is going to get a far better return than flogging the 787 on low cost 'softening' (Dixon's words) international routes. So surely AIPA is actually talking in the shareholders best interests with this? :E

Genex, if QF felt it needed that experience then they have ways of doing it. That said, I question whether or not it's needed. You can't tell me that between QF and J* that they don't have the experience needed to bring in a new type such as the 787? Seriously? QF has a truck load of experience on Boeing twins, ETOPS operations, boeing aircraft, etc. The flight instrumentation set up on the 787 is similar to the 744 and the systems are similarly set up to the 767. I've seen the panel diagrams for the 787 and they are broadly consistent with both the 767 and the 744. Further QF does have recent history of bringing in DEC for an identified need.

This would make your post ignorant at best.

Some possibly would in order to get the promotion....particulary if they've not been in QF too long and want the window seat.

So time spent in GA and then in the back and front seat of a 744/A330A380 isn't doesn't count as 'experience' but someone coming from GA straight into the right hand seat of an A320 is OK for J*? You're seriously deluded! :rolleyes:

You may be going back to the hoe but I suspect that you really live under a bridge like most trolls. :=

Keg,

I thnk this whole thing has much more to do with global issues in the context of getting the overall Qantas product down to a much lower cost base, rather than specific details of operating costs. This cost move is all the more imperative given the rising cost of Jet Fuel and the lack of hedging after 2009.

So I believe Qantas mainline in the future will be stripped of as much of the high cost components as possible, and these elements will be moved into the so called "low cost" vehicle.

Every one jokes about the fact that the Jetstar aircraft will be repainted in QF colours once this transformation is complete - but is it really a joke ?

I am not going to get involved in the AIPA or Jetstar pilot union discussions, just to say that I'm sure there are people on both sides who have very vested interests in the future as they see it.

The Price of Fuel
 

The price of fuel is coming off historical highs as the speculators leave and demand softens.
All this conversation about costs will become irrelevant if fuel continues its slide and breaks through $100/barrell.
Qantas manegement have used every instance of drama over the last ten years to drive down costs while still making greater profits and paying more bonuses to Execs.
While the LC model was necessary for the domestic market it has also been used as a weapon to frighten mainline( across all departments)when negotiating EBAs.
All this nonsense about Jet* being a global force is vacuous nonsense.Look at its network and fleet size....puny.
Harbison makes this stuff up after 2 bottles of "76 Grange supplied by his good friends at Qantas.
Look at the foreseeable global airline picture and it becomess abundantly clear that there will some real opportunities for those that are cashed up and are capable of providing a premium product

Cash and Product
 

Qantas is cashed up but its current product is rubbish.
The brand has been trashed and the emotional connection with travellers(particulalry in Australia) has been irreversably severed.
There is another thread somewhere on PPrune where this has been discussed at length.
The trashing of the brand has been deliberate IMHO.

How do you get 2500+ mainline pilots onto jetstar conditions. You don't, well not very quickly. They want to pressure the mainline which is their job. QF mainline has five times the number of J* pilots. Much too valuable a resource to lose. All the scrambling of J* will get this and that ( like all the 787s) at the expense of the QF is rot. Where wil they get the drivers from?

Quote-

"The trashing of the brand [QANTAS] has been deliberate IMHO."

---------------------

I think you are right.

Regional Pilots
 

Hi Keg,
In your grand plan were do the Regional Pilots sit, they work for a wholly owned subsidiary just like J*, is it a datal list??? Do you rule a line accross the seniority lists of Qantas Mainline, Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate.

newsensation (great song by INXS by the way).

I think I addressed that on the previous page.

Does that answer the question?

It means that a Dash 8 skipper who joined in 1992 would get the opportunity to bid for a J* 787 command before me. They'd be trumped by the QF F/O who joined in 91. They'd all be trumped by the current J* F/O who joined in 2007.....or whatever date we pick to start the GOL. To be fair that date should be sometime in the future so that current crew aren't adversely affected.

Why should flying a 787 be all that hard? None of the others are! All this crap about a 767/777, Dash 8 or anything else is nonsense. They all fly pretty much the same way once you get 25/50 hours at the helm and about a dozen landings in.

I think it's only genex that suggested that the 787 was so hard that it required previous 777 experience in order to introduce it! :E The group opportunity list has nothing to do with what experience you need to fly various types, just what you want to bid for.

Gooday KEG

Been watching this from the sidelines and can't help myself....... you know the story from elsewhere, but given another 18 landings on the 767 I might almost come up to scratch hey!!!!;)

OK.... you have had ya chuckle (:} :ooh:) now its back to your story......

J:ok:

What a bunch of pessimists, give the bloke a chance it might not be as painful as you think. No need to take in laundry just yet, he is a determined little bastard, and will probably want to run things his way, and stuff Dixon once he gets his hand on the helm, at least he has been known to actually speak to tech and cabin crew, rather than Dixon who would prefer to run barefoot thru a paddock full of bulls%it, before even looking at you.

Remember what those American Airlines pilots used to say about Robert Crandall? They said he was, "An ass-hole, but at least he's ours!"

He could be a total pain to the Washington folk and fought everything at the capitol. When he left American Airlines; the airline suffered almost immediately.

This Joyce bloke might be just what you need to whip it all back into shape.

You never know!

The Shoe Is On The Other Foot Now
 

I hope he now realises how much Qantas has spent on getting J* up and running and everything to do with J* has come at great expense to Qantas. I work in engineering and we do all their servicing with no recompense at all. Some money, "we have been told", has been paid, but engineering at the SIT and Base have not seen a cent. (Sounds a lot like Air New Zealand/Ansett demise)

Recently at a Managers meeting at which some Engineering personnel were in attendance. (discussion turned to Qantas Vs John Holland bid for A380 Engineering) We were asked if one of the new A380's which was being serviced by JH was in trouble, would we go to their aid as it was a Qantas aircraft. Well you could have heard a pin drop when they were told NO. That would be JH's problem and if this company wanted to give Qantas Engineering to JH then they would have to suffered the consequences.

Recently J* announced that they were not inviting Qantas Engineering to bid for the 787 contract as they were going to do all their servicing themselves. Where they are going to get enough experienced engineers with a new type license, to handle the 60 odd aircraft they're going to be getting, is beyond us.

I can't wait to see J* flounder out there with inexperienced LAME's and AME's. It should be fun to watch them try and operate on their own with out the support of Qantas Engineering.

Let's see if they win anymore Low Cost Airline awards when things turn to SH1T.

Best of Luck A.J. you have inherited an Engineering mess, which will need to be handled with a lot more diplomacy than your predecessor possessed.

What a laughable assertion that you need 777 time to train on a 787! Really genex, you're just losing it now.

Didn't this sort of crap get thrown around in the early days of glass cockpits?...'sorry son that 727 endoresment just doesn't cut it, you need glass time to fly this A310'

I think this was the attitude in the sandpit at one stage from memory.

Ok genex it's now clear where your hatred of mainline pilots comes from. You're still bitter that Qantas pilots didn't go on strike in support of the federation in '89...c'mon admit it.

I think YOU need to wait for spring, and smell those roses. Do it before your bile finally rises too high and chokes you.