Post # 22

Happened at B.A.too.

I have refrained from engaging in the purile pprune debate concerning the "QF/JQ world is caving in" nonsense BUT I simply cannot overlook an implication presented by Captainrats:

"An aging fleet that requires considerable maintenance from diminished resources ie tangible equipment assets and personnel"

SQ has a reasonably young fleet NOW but dont kid yourself, they will be basket cases when still operating in thier twilight years. Case in point the poor state of the A310's and 743's when they were not factory fresh.

"A Disengaged workforce that been largely managed on the basis of fear and intimidation."

Do you really think the staff at SQ and QR are "engaged". "Managed by fear" is an apt term when referring to SQ, its how they do business.

"Operational disarray."

Yep, sums up QR very nicely and other big players such as CX couldnt strategize thier way out of a paper bag on most occasions.

You will not get sympathy from fellow workers at the airlines you mention, they are struggling with same issues you face, or worse.

So you think your new boss is a mean and nasty man that will try to make your charmed lifes difficult? Welcome to the real world my friend.

to jaba
 

Nice to hear something positive.Open mind here.

If anyone expects a new CEO to come down and kiss lame's or pilot's backsides for doing what they do we're all going to be disappointed.

If he has any credo he truly does need to respect the workforce (and show it).The GD era was epitomised by a tough guy culture that was emulated thru out management.Every wannabe out Geoffing Geoff.
I expect hard nosed management but I also want to see see him talk to people meet them look at what we do and where.

I also want the empires that even Geoff could not find or disassemble brought down and less money spent on bull$#!^.
Still cant believe the agonisingly complex and non-standardised across the fleet paperwork that qantas have for fixing jets.
For all the money spent on IT its one of the major sources of frustration in engineering.Utter crap.200 million on marlin had better work .

Train more apprentices and give AME's some hope of a career as LAME.Train LAME's on more types and get better value out of them.Half licences or not trained on this variant or that tail or category costs so much.

A more open , consultative culture in engineering would be most welcome.

Re-insert spleen now.

Would that J* Capt have a last name starting with J as well?

While I was no fan of Mr. Dixon, I think it might be wise to wait and see how Mr. Joyce settles in before passing judgement. Personalities are not stable over time, and of course where you sit is where you stand on many issues.

You might be pleasantly surprised by the little fella, give him a fair go.:ok:

Sunfish, I sincerely hope you are right.

The mantra of the LCC will not be sustained as the economic storm clouds gather. The only way an airline will hold onto to revenue and more importantly yield is respect. That starts with the customer, who is sold a decent product, at a fair price and treated as such. That customer is then dealt with by staff, who are treated with respect. Ultimately back to the shareholder. Or so Walt Disney maintained, as did Gordon Bethune and a plethora of others.

His form to date suggests otherwise.

QFInsider....who exactly told you that AJ doesn't respect his staff? I have not heard that from anyone I know who works there. He is tough....cost minded and single minded, not taking short cuts...Ask any Ansett employee if they'd like to have had someone like that running their company. I have heard that the JQ folks like him and that he actually believes what he says about safety.

Genex....
 

What is your version/understanding of "tough"?
Alan Joyce is "tough"?
Is he made of carbon fibre or does he beat people up?

Many of the posts here quite graphically display why pilots as a whole can be manipulated and screwed by intelligent corporate types. Obviously the average age on this thread would be about 10. How embarrassing.

DM

genex: absolute rubbish. If you think AJ and or any other CEO of an airline puts safety before profit you have been sucking on the management bong far too long.

If that was the case why would dixon take HM off shore or why jetstar operated without a manager of safety for near on a year or why all of the safety investigators with jetstar are FOs and do not have to be paid a %age of a capts wage? Its not because they have safety front and centre I can tell you.

The Purpose of PPrune
 

1.Mindless stirring
2.Venting of frustration
3.Posting of rumours.
4.Provision of information/disinformation
5.Trolling.
Take your pick.
Its a bit like TV if you dont like it ...turn it off.
You are not being forced to view this website

Virgindriver

Sorry mate, of the few I know none have a J in their names at all.

J:ok:

Like the "draconian" Long Haul Cabin Crew union that agreed to a 50% pay cut for new starters?

Dodgybrothers- No different to the way Big Brother did business, not too many Captains are investigators there either. Jetstar do however now have the former head of safety at KLM as well as a former Chief Pilot of Ansett as Group Manager so I don't think they are short of experience. Even before that they had a former ATSB investigator who developed a basic investigator's course because there was no other in-house course available within the Group.

One last round!
 

What a shame for AJ to go, no more credit card thrown over the bar and 'herr yer go boys, it's on me' until all hours!:ok:

I think genex and KEG could be good friends in another era.

AJ has done a great job at Jet* and no doubt will apply himself equally as well in his new position.

What say the jury remains out for a while and we all give him the fair go we Aussies are famous for.

So what if FOs are investigators in JQ. Do you think you have to be a Captain to be a good investigator? This is precisely the type of thinking that needs to be overhaulled.

Your wish is my command....see ya!

Turbtool, I think genex and I probably agree on far more than we disagree.

To summarise my thoughts- and whilst I don't speak for all of my colleagues the conversations I've had with a lot of them would indicate that many of them share my thoughts.
1. Neither I nor the over whelming majority of my colleagues thought or think ill of the J* crew or consider them second rate operators.
2. I am bitterly disappointed that many forces (some who were previously quite high up in AIPA) keep working at having the pilot groups at arms length from each other.
3. I'm disappointed that J* crew signed on for a poor EBA when they had a gun to their head regarding the A320 instead of trying to work WITH AIPA for a better deal.
4. I'm disappointed that J* crew signed on for the widebody variation that confirmed that they'd fly the A330 for substantially lower conditions than the other operator of A330 aircraft in Australia.
5. I'm frustrated that QF keep being told how expensive we are as an airline when no one knows for sure how much assistance QF provided/provides J* both in start up and in an ongoing fashion.
6. I'm bitterly cranky that QF pilots and their representatives have constantly be denied a seat at the table to discuss crewing aspects of the LCC. This has been a concerted effort by J* management, the JPC and even the AFAP.
7. That crankiness ratchets up a notch when I recall agreements in EBA and promises made to the pilot body that we actually would get a seat at the table. The seat at the table involved not taking away a single command from current J* crew and seeing QF drivers who move across to J* sitting underneath the J* crew on seniority.
8. It ratchets up a further notch when I am told that the pilot culture of which I share a proud heritage would 'pollute' a relatively new carrier that has grown rapidly from GA RPT ops to heavy jets.
9. I'm frustrated that the premium product- which everyone acknowledges is still doing pretty well whilst the leisure travel segment is 'softening- is neglected with tired, thirsty aircraft whilst the low cost, low yield product is showered with newer and more efficient equipment.
10. I'm frustrated by a management that publicly states that it sees little value in it's people and that it's shareholders it's only priority and that this attitude impedes people's ability to actually do their job. That frustration continues when i see one of the prime architects and enablers of that strategy promoted to follow the already poisonous employee relations.

Any QF crew who aren't broadly in line with that view would probably be the minority and those who attempt to paint that alternative view as the majority 'sky god' view are either sadly mis-informed or trying it on for their own mischevious purposes. Perhaps Genex could tell us which side of the ledger he falls on.

So good luck to Mr Joyce. If the J* crew like the job he did for them then perhaps that's a positive start. Given his public disdain for me and my colleagues you can understand our hesitation in giving him a rousing welcome.

PS: QF too use F/Os (amongst others) as investigators. Some of them are internally trained. Many of them spent time with BASI and/or the ATSB prior to QF. Not ALL of the investigators are F/Os though which is the point I think the other poster was making. Nice straw man though kelly.

Failed Pilot comes good....
 

Trinity maths graduate flying high as new chief at Qantas

More than a decade after turning down a Ryanair job to move Down Under, Dubliner Alan Joyce was yesterday appointed chief executive at Australian airline giant Qantas.

The Tallaght-born maths graduate is expected to earn up to four times as much as Ryanair's Michael O'Leary, making him one of the best-paid aviation executives in the world.

"Any Aussie would be delighted to secure the position but as an Irishman I'm very proud," said Mr Joyce, who'll become Qantas's first non-Australian chief executive when he takes the reins in November.

The 42-year-old is expected to make as much as $7m AUD (€4.2m) a year, based on the outgoing chief executive's 2007 package, well above the €1m package Mr O'Leary scooped last year.

Since getting the nod from the Qantas board last week, Mr Joyce has been celebrating with his brother and wife who are in Australia for the occasion, while there have also been celebratory phone calls with parents Collete and Maurice back home in Tallaght.

"It's just wonderful," Maurice told the Irish Independent last night. "He seems to have a great forte for aviation, and we're very proud of him."

His wife Collete said Alan "hadn't changed a bit" since leaving Ireland for the jet-set life in Australia, and still "definitely" has his Irish accent.

"We were over there a few weeks ago, and he had us in Bali and the Gold Coast and Hong Kong," said Maurice.

"He's very good to us, he looks after his parents."

A maths and engineering graduate from Trinity College Dublin, Mr Joyce has frequently credited his parents for making sacrifices to put their four children through college. After university, the maths enthusiast started out at Aer Lingus, where he worked as a research analyst having been knocked back for a pilot's position.

He then moved to Australia in the mid-1990s after turning down a job at a rapidly expanding Ryanair in favour of working for Australia's Ansett, which went to the wall in September 2001. Luckily, Mr Joyce got out in 2000, swapping Ansett for Qantas, where he went on to head up the airline's low-cost division Jetstar with two former Ryanair executives.

He has built up a profile as one of Australia's more affable chief executives, shunning the trappings of a more executive lifestyle in favour of a down-to-earth approach and a newfound passion for Aussie Rules.

In recent years, he had been repeatedly mooted as a candidate to take over from outgoing Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon, and is also believed to have been offered the top job at Aer Lingus in 2005 following Willie Walsh's defection to British Airways.

At Qantas, Mr Joyce will head up a company boasting revenues of $15bn AUD (€9.1bn) last year, and profits of over $1bn AUD (€608m). Like most of the global aviation industry, Qantas has been battered by soaring oil prices coupled with weakening economic conditions, and earlier this month the Australian airline announced plans to axe 1,500 jobs and scrap planes to hire 1,200 workers .

Trinity maths graduate flying high as new chief at Qantas - Business News, Business - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk

Keg,

A great post.
I am yet to meet anyone in Qantas who has had a bone to pick with Jetstar pilots.

Most just feel sad that Jetstar are flying on an award that is inferior to that in Qantas.
The opportunity was there to lift conditions but sadly the small majority of idiots got in the way and ruined a great chance for unity.
Look at the pay packets of pilots where there is unified representation and compare it to our sorry lot.

Will we ever learn.:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

What a joke.

The nerd couldn't even make it as a pilot now hes CEO who's going to kill the company even more. Usual policy cant hack a real job, get promoted :ugh:

There should have been a vote by the shareholders not by the board who are all so far up Dixons arse its not funny.

keg,

I am an admirer of your posts and your ability to argue the point and not the man. Please believe me when I say I understand and emphasise with your frustrations.

I can't agree with your assertions in regard to the JPC's intent as that body was not a party to the agreements you state were in place for your seat at the table. Their job was to look after Jetstar pilots.

Equally I enjoy the balanced view genex offers.

I know that great divides can be conquered with good communication and effort from those on either side.

You may not be aware that the new JPA committee is committed to facilitating a ballot of the Jetstar pilots, on Union affiliation/representation. I understand both the AIPA and the AFAP have been invited to provide their input to that process.

That aside many pilots at Jetstar have enjoyed firsthand the ability to speak directly and openly to AJ, expressing their view on AWA's, the latest EBA, and many other issues, at venues organised by AJ to hear those views.

He may even earn your confidence. Who knows?

Keg, I've got to say, a great post.

Where i'm sitting, I see your frustrations. As a J* pilot, and paid up AIPA member, I hope sense will prevail and we achieve a unified group of people, proud of what we do.

Fearcampaign, i agree too. One thing I have to say is when J* techies are paxing whether its duty or staff travel and we ask for the jumpseat on Qantas, and get denied because the skipper has just viewed our ASIC and see the name on it, it makes for a wedge on our side sometimes.

Anyway, not wanting to thread drift here, but Alan is more than happy to chat with the troops at 'road shows' and always willing to put his company AMEX over the bar to buy us some beers etc. It may be a blow to some in QF that he's been appointed, but give him a go, you might all be suprised how approachable he is as a CEO.

Thanks for the vote of confidence all.

Turbtool. I guess we'll agree to disagree on that one. My observation is that the (former it would appear) JPC actively sought to keep AIPA away from any and all discussions regarding J*. As I said to both the QF Chief Pilot and Geoff Dixon at a meeting a number of years back, it's frustrating when long serving and loyal QF employees are treated in a second rate fashion compared to those who a few years before were working for the opposition or not even employed within the group.

Flava, glad that you see the usefulness of unity. AIPA isn't perfect (and none of us would attest that it is) but unity is a good thing.

Interetsing post Keg and some valid points.

However AIPA hs an agenda to cover QF pilots and not Jetstar. Try convincing the Jetstar pilots otherwise. There are a few cofused pilots in Jetstar land whom oddly enough are members of AIPA.

Had the EBA been voted down. There is no way they would get close to what they are getting now. If you call $200,000 a year for an A320 Cap woefull then I guess you are right about the EBA.

It would be nice to bring the 2 groups together. However not in this universe. It is in the pilots of QF's best interest to unite but certainly not in Jetstar pilots best interest.

Unfortunately AIPA missed the boat years ago. The Jetstar pilots certainly do not eed AIPA now.

The Two Best QF CEOs
 

1. John Menadue
2.James Strong
Dixon has been remarkable......for being unremarkable

Another...
 

"Tubby"Ward was an excellent CEO ...and a gentleman.
He was responsib for the J Class innovation in the days when Qantas led and the world followed.

Yeah there is/was alot of smoke and mirrors accounting going on in regard to that.

I also loved in his last press conference how Dixon was 'suprised' that the QF premium product held up so well recently, and was the backbone of revenue. Yet Jetstar was suffering falling revenues. :ugh:

Talk about thread drift!
Oh come on CTD777. $200k pa (which is not guaranteed) for a J* A320 skipper is hard yakka and is well above your base conditions. I fly with guys who had jet commands in their late 20s on low coin. So what, what are you going to do in 15years time on the same low pay? The jet command fades. So the end (dollars on payslip) justifies the means? How often do you get to see the kids? Do you work to live or live to work? Quality of life is the decider for some.
Unified collective representation is the only way to go. Remember no matter how ****ty the conditions are someone will always accept them as they may be better than their current situation of say living in the bush and refuelling out of drums or living in a desert and dreaming of Oz residency. They will always come so accept it and concentrate on what you can change.
I do agree AIPA have their agenda as do most unions. Just remember who AIPA represents. They can do what they want as long as it does not affect the 744 skippers.

Total Agreement
 

Keg, great articulate post! :ok:
The sentiments you put so well are echoed in their own way throughout Qantas Engineering!
Harmony and unity are great assets yet to be realised by the bean counters!
If AJ can realise the capabilty and opportunities presented by an engaged workforce, the results will stun passengers, employees and shareholders alike!
If not heaven help us all.

Interesting posts, however, ShotNancy and ctd777, you are both way of the mark with your opinions about AIPA and its agenda.

Trust me when I say to you that AIPA is interested in unity and strength in numbers so that we may advance the cause of all QF group pilots.

Nothing more nothing less. You see fellas, we know that by protecting and improving your lot in life we preserve what we enjoy.

Everyones a winner.

The initiative though, must come from both sides of the fence.

:)

Shot you really have no idea on the facts so I suggest you go and track down some crew and find out for yourself.

cabin crew have a minimum height requirement for safety reasons. maybe we could have the same apply to the CEO. at least we would have dodged FOG as well. will be interesting to see if the irishman has enough courage to try the inflight drinks and food, something FOG gave up for fear of what the hosties had done to it first.
30% of fuel is hedged, wonder if this cheaper fuel is shared between divisions? lots of ways to dodgy up the financial results between QF/J*.
J* cabin crew loathe the little fella, maybe something to do with a $5000 p/a pay cut for new employees without consultation with the union. when base pay was $38500 and now starts at $33500 he is not into buying popularity

And maybe Prune should have a minimum IQ level for posters Inamiddle....

I guess AJ wishes he was tall. Maybe his mum does too. Maybe his tailor. Maybe he should have red hair and come from Fiji instead. What the heck....except to show your bias and arrogance....does this all have to do with the future of Qantas?

And Tenretni......

"Trust me when I say to you that AIPA is interested in unity and strength in numbers so that we may advance the cause of all QF group pilots.

Nothing more nothing less. You see fellas, we know that by protecting and improving your lot in life we preserve what we enjoy"


Amazing. Truly amazing. I am actually stunned. Is this a guarantee that AIPA will work to lift the T & C of every JQ pilot while preserving the right of all JQ pilots to fly the 787 in order of JQ seniority as they would have if there'd been no AIPA? However many 787s Jetstar gets?

Are there steak knives too?

Sorry...didn't mean to be frivolous. It's just so good to see AIPA's official (and may I say selfless though extremely patronizing position) finally published "No Jetstar pilot will live in poverty...".

Will....and here I cut to the chase....will AIPA take actual industrial action to change the JQ EBA to ensure this?

Or....will AIPA actually support the new CEO of the whole Qantas Group (of which AIPA pilots represent less than 7% of the employees)?

Sad....distortions and lies again.
 

It's getting a little tired genex but let me once again put forward the QF pilot position. It's a position that is virtually identical to AIPAs. I note that you conveniently ignored this from my previous but I shouldn't be surprised as you tend to ignore my posts when I've shone the spotlight onto your distortions and game playing.

For the umpteenth time, J* pilots get first crack at their own aircraft as per their seniority. QF pilots getting the opportunity to fly J* aircraft do so either with the 'protected' seniority number which already exist and continue to accrue at 7:20 of new hires or follow underneath the J* crew. For the record, the protected J* numbers in QF are now eligible to be F/Os. In a couple of years time they'd be senior enough for 737 captain slots.

Membership of AIPA and representation of J* pilots means that we'd be working together for the future benefit of both pilot groups- something it appears that you are against.

You come across as a pretty smart guy and you're forever telling us how dumb we pilots are and conversely how slick you are and so therefore you should know that this is illegal under current legislation with heavy penalties. Therefore your comments here are one of two things. They are either completely uninformed and ignorant or they're posted specifically to obfuscate and distort the truth. Choice is yours.

AIPA and many QF crew have stated many times that we want a strong group moving forward. This hasn't changed. Will you support the new CEO of the QF Group if he kills J* international?

Pilotdude09,

Since when does being a pilot mean you have the answers to everything?
What a ridiculous comment. Do you know why he failed? Could have been a physiological problem? You don't know and it is IRRELEVANT to running an airline. He will be in charge of maintenance, flight attendants, catering, transport etc. By your logic, he should be a chef, an engineer, cabin crew, and a bus/car/truck driver. He is a manager who has experience in the field. There is more to an airline than the pilots, dude!

Unfortunately AIPA also stated some nasty things in the Senate about the quality of J* and its pilots which got under the skin of its CEO. I'm not sure that it will be a simple case of let bygones be bygones. I think that all the pilots in J* who would be eligible for a protected number in QF are now all Captains so the MOU really does not have much appeal for anyone wanting to go to QF from J*. There is also the issue about funding the training. Why would you fork out money for an F/O spot when you are already in the LHS? The pay for your rating worked both ways.

Keep a grip....
 

Genex, you crack me up.:D

So let me get this right. The measure of success in ANY senior airline job is whether you could make it as a pilot. I wish that were the case! It's not though.

Should the CEO of BHP be a successful pourer of molten metal? A successful miner?

Should the CEO of Holden be an expert assembler of cars?

Should the CEO of Fosters Group be a master brewer?

Should the CEO of RailCorp be an expert train driver?

If you answer yes to any of the above then you should not be a manager in any company.