Wellconcerned - "One can only assume that your next EBA negotiation will be managed just as badly - so in fact you will have achieved an average amortised pay rise of around 2.6 or 2.7 per cent per annum - WELL DONE - not"

Where did you learn to do maths? I can't for the life of me work out how you have come up with that figure... perhaps you should go an work for Caroline Fleming - she is pretty good at stuffing up calculations as well.

Depending on where one sits in the structure the increases throughout the CA range from 21% to 30%+ (after you factor in the bump into the structure, then the increases compounding over the life of the agreement. That works out to be between 7% and 10% per annum.

Poor mathematics to one side... perhaps wellconcerned could shed light on his proposed solution to the staffing issues? Perhaps he could just redo the calculations for ATC numbers required as well?

I'm with WELLCONCERNED on this. Most ATC's will end up with a less than CPI increase. You can compound whatever you want but the basics stand. Sure, a few do a lot better but most don't.

There seems to be a lot of back slapping and self-congratulating but when it's all over with later on it's just the same old 2% every six months (give or take 0.5% for 'productivity'). And as per usual it took such a massive effort to get it.

Not slagging off the union but it's disappointing from Airservices...what a surprise though!

Do I detect a wee bit of panic on the part of Mr Wellconcerned? I think that I prefer to accept the judgement of the members as to the value of the outcome, given that they are the affected ones. Particularly people with a bit of cred, like Messrs OS and BN APP. I'll take your assessment as to the 'satisfaction rating' over Spin City any day. Strange, isn't it, that no one who actually does the job says they've been dudded.

Just my assessment, but I'd say that the 'perception management' arm of your organisation have to sell this as 'tough negotiating' on the part of the employer and a thorough rogering of those union renegades. Any forum, including this one, that is read by all and sundry including, no doubt, pollies' staff, will be used to broadcast the message that Civil Air was done over and were outmanoeuvred by brilliant industrial relations tactics. Smother the facts at all costs.

In my opinion, they have to, in order to try and avoid embarrassment at the next round of Senate Estimates. I doubt that the senator that I regard as an idiot that's still looking for a village will want to back down, but others might delve a little more deeply. It would be revealing, assuming the right questions were asked, if the stuff I've read about continuing shortages and your training establishment were examined with some degree of forensic thoroughnes.

As an aside, is it really caled the 'Learning Academy?' What dork thought that one up? What's wrong with something simple like ATC School or ATC College? Learning Academy? No wonder you have such a low opinion of your managerial 'betters.' W@nk-Word Bingo comes to mind.

Solving the ASA Staff Shortage (Subject of the Thread??)
 

The staff shortage within Oz ATC can only come about if their "Learning Academy" 's, Management, Instructional Staff, and ancillary equipment are of a competent and useful status.

From previous posts (over the last 8 months, at least) it would appear the "Academy" has been over-run by a plethora of non-aviation associated managers (and -esses??); and off the pavement assistants.

Surely the next joint project of ASA management and Civilair is to "round-table" (a favoured LA term, I believe) and sort the training mess out for the next 5 years.... and ASAP (LA double talk for "in the forseeable future; or by 2011 if possible!")

GR

Well Concerned won't decide whether this CA is accepted.

The members of Civil Air will.

So his opinion, whilst entertaining, if not informed, is ultimately moot.

If they think it is a good deal, they will vote in favour - if they think they will get a better deal through arbitration, over whatever time period that takes, they will vote against.

The fact it has taken this long to get to this point is not the fault of the Civil Air negotiators - it was the tactic of the other side to delay & obfuscate as much as possible. Such is the legacy of the legislation known as WorkChoices (thank you John Howard, Kevin Andrews, Joe Hockey and Well Concerned?) Sounds like a lot money was spent doing this as well. Nice job.

Well Concerned can sit back lovingly clutching his AWA, hoping it will be renewed in some manner when the next management team arrive in Canberra. He really doesn't need to worry about the Certified Agreement.
............
Curiosity has got the better of me Well'y - what would you have done if you were a controller in the union? Conducted a one-man strike for higher pay? How would you have got a better outcome for ......you?

Having been at the receiving end of CivilAir 'representation' - and having had my concerns 'taken into account' over many EBA and CA negotiations, I have seen and experienced the 'agenda' enough times to know that CivilAir does not represent the vast majority of controllers - it represents the few militant reps who think they know what controllers want - but really aren't attuned to the day-to-day concerns of the 'rank and file'.

I was a card carrying member of CivilAir for years - but gave it away after the last CA negotiation when my particular needs - and those of the controllers in my aisle - were ignored.

You have absolutely no idea who I am and how close to most of you I actually sit and work - so don't tell me I don't know what controllers think.

Most will simply go along with the deal because it's the only thing on the table - regardless of whether or not they think it's a good deal.

Nonetheless, your opinion will (literally) not count.

complete and utter BS. Post your figures. Obviously you havn't done your damp training cause you and wellconcerned must be high on something :ugh:

Staff !!!
 

Most seem happy with the CA but how does any of this actually solve your staff problems ?

Or is AsA counting on heaps of RAAF ATC's jumping ship at the end of Sep ?

Can I suggest that now that the union forums are reopened we move the discussion of the pros and cons of the EBA to our "private" forum (with the caveat that we remember that printed out pages of the supposed member's only forum have been submitted to the IRC as "evidence") - let's not give Wellconcerned any more time.

Let's get back to talking about how the staffing numbers are going, and how many trainees (or how few) we are seeing make it to the field.

For Madam Tobzalp
 

Ouch! Spank me again!

What needs to be done is a serious review of recruiting and training. My course 13 started 6 rated and i'm pretty sure that has been the norm for quite some time. The RAAF had the same problem with pilot training before they created flight screening. We need to make sure that the 12 bums on each course are there because they have the aptitude to be ATC's not because they were the only 12 they could find.

I'm awaiting my 'Personality Interview' which is in May. If I am successful in this and the following couple of stages I will be starting training in September. I must be honest and say that if my wife and I didn't have 3 children, we would not be able to survive the pay cut from my current position. I have found the process so far to be not too difficult but I am still skeptical of the training wage. I'm sure I am not the only one who has had second thoughts about changing careers while taking such a financial hit. :\

My problem exactly. I'm starting at the College on June 16th. So moving from Adelaide whilst my partner stays in Adelaide and keeping our mortgage and renting a place in Melbourne all on $35400 PA makes things very tight. It really separates the people who are really interested from those who just might be interested. If they brought the training wage up maybe $10000 it would make things much easier though, but still keep the training wage reasonably low compared with other equivalent professions. Just my 2 cents worth.

Welcome Back WC!
 

MY particular needs. Exactly. Look after yourself and who cares about the rest of the people you work with. That is why you left Civil Air, not after the CA, but after you signed up as an ALM. By the way, wouldn't Civil Air have a record of resignations?

Most decent people (and don't think for a moment I am including you in that group) understand the common good, and looking after everyone.

The outcome from the Association will get a resounding "Yes" vote, and controllers will continue to get payrises over the next three years, with no loss of conditions (Well done Civil Air)

You and the rest of the ALMs will get nothing this year. Airservices have already stated that things are tight and the "market movement" on which you are paid your increases has already been set at "zero". Keep that up, and most Controllers will be at least on par with your salary at the end of this agreement.

Now the funny part (for me anyway). When all the the AWAs expire during 2012, there will need to be a new agreement for the ALMs. Guess which agreement you will revert to? Thats right, the Civil Air negotiated Collective ALM agreement! So as much as you bag them out, they will be responsible for your conditons eventually. I hope not too much work goes into it.......

Well well well Wellconcerned. How was your holiday? (Remember, we know you are an ALM on an AWA in Melbourne!) Do we know exactly, No. Does it matter, No.
You are the perfect representative of all the opportunistic whores that signed the AWA. That is enough for me.

Airservices' management might not be so Blind, Freddy:

From today's Melbourne Age:

Digging up dirt: Facebook spies for hire

Large companies and government departments are employing a new Sydney-based company to dig up dirt on staff by spying on Facebook, MySpace, Twitter, PPRuNe and YouTube posts.

SR7 specialises in "online risk and reputation management" and claims to be the only company in Australia that actively monitors social networking sites on behalf of companies.

It was formed about eight months ago in response to the growing trend for people to take conversations they would have traditionally had with mates at the pub on to their social network profiles.

Few people realise these seemingly private sites are still public spaces. If controversial posts leak to the media, it can lead to brands suffering immense damage to their reputations.

SR7 director James Griffin said business was booming following recent public relations disasters sparked by the stupid social network behaviour of a few rogue employees. The firm's clients included "a number of blue-chip companies in a variety of industries" and "government departments and agencies".

Disappointed
 

Thats it?

No retort, no witty repartee?

That holiday has relaxed you.

BTW, I am sure we are all aware of the way PPRuNe posts end up in court.

AsA dont need SR7, they have you.

WellConcerned has 'embellished' his "quote". Some might call it lying, but I am sure he would have another (enhanced) name for it, being the type who is no doubt employed to be 'clever' with words.

Here is the original article he 'quotes':

Perhaps quoting in context, or accurately, doesn't suit his 'particular needs' ?

Just a thought, but is 'Thicket' the collective noun for a group of WCs?

What a howler; the whole of Australia read that article.

Are you sure this guy is a "boss?" Somehow, it just doesn't gel. I am leaning towards the belief that one of the psychiatric hospitals gives rubber-room inmates access to the net.

The big question is why did he become an ALM? Do be a link between the controllers at the console and higher management? To fight to ensure that they received the best conditions and support from management? Or did he see $$$$$$ and the opportunity to not put his balls on the line everyday that he controls......just my 2 cents