We know where you work - Chad. Or is that another management misrepresentation?

As for me, I am Roger Kint .... or am I?

The "offer" is not yet publicly known. It cannot be presented until it has been through due process with the Government. WC is either trolling for some details or he is trying to incite some kind of statement that the media and ASA have used, from this forum, to "demonstrate" illegal industrial action.

Inciting members of this forum who are Civil Air members to
and
before the offer can be detailed and made public is pretty irresponsible.

(and BTW WC, don't be so dramatic - you weren't banned, your posts were removed).

Are the figures this idiot is using accurate (in terms of the percentage payrise?). ie there is an agreement to put to the members? (I understand there are roadshows planned, so I assume there are hard numbers).

WC
Unless you out yourself, it's pretty stupid and irrelevant to ask people to stop posting based on information they cant know.

ferris,

There are hard numbers and yes roadshows are scheduled. If WC had real numbers, he would reveal them. He doesn't. He is just stirring.

I very much doubt if Wellconcerned is management in AsA.
I would suggest there is another agenda here.
A journalist seeking a scoop maybe?

Wellconcerned it's time you stated your real interest in this issue.

HtoH. WC IS posting numbers. Just wanted to confirm they are NOT real. For those of us overseas, there is no way to know.

Trusted posters have confirmed that WC is full of it. Numbers publicly available shortly (for better or worse).

stupid and irrelevant? is that the pot calling the kettle black. Unless you are an air traffic controller or from the union then these pay negotiations have nothing to do with you. we don't need your bulls$%t comments

Well concerned - but very uninformed - as usual with your posts on previous "ASA internal" threads! :ok:

You really should get an agent - why sit in the dark, handling yourself ? :E

WC - why don't you tell us all who you are since you are so very important. It is clear that you don't have any understanding of ASA or negotiating agreements or general principles of logic. So that would make you a newspaper journalist wouldn't it?

The way you all react to him makes me think that maybe the numbers quoted are in the ballpark and everyone is just very annoyed that he might just be right.

I hope not.

This thread is at risk of being closed.

That may be the intent of some users posts?

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.

*"sciolist"... Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed".

May I suggest that if you disagree with another user's posted opinion, you move on and ignore that post?

Baileys,

Those who know what the real numbers are would like them to remain 'in camera' until the thing is signed, which is what is happening. The Walt (WC), is for reasons known only to him, trying to bait those that know into blurting the real numbers out (unsuccessfully). People are reacting to him because he is TROLLING THIS FORUM TRYING TO ELICIT A RESPONSE. Which brings me to my next point....

Tailwheel, instead of threatening to close the thread, which would no doubt be both the simple solution and a great sop for the troller, how about you actually MODERATE? I dont understand how one individual with questionable ethics can't simply be removed from the conversation that he (?) has chosen to sour. Read his posts.

Hempy and others,

Remember above all - this is a RUMOUR network - i.e., Professional Pilot RUmourNEtwork - [even though the site is now actually owned by a comercial entity (that sells cars, as I recall)].

What does it matter if my 'rumour' about 4.1% is wrong and the 'actual' rise is 4.0% or 4.2% - the fact remains that controllers - once again - are being screwed by their union/association - and the delegates - MANY of whom are represented on this forum [and I know EXACTLY who you are bur will not reveal who you are] - are hell bent on not upsetting the apple cart with so-called 'spurious' claims about the fact that the agreement will be diluted significantly by the 'fact of time'.

What I'm trying to say to the lay controllers is that even if you are offered 4.0%, 4.1% or even 4,2%, your NET rise, taking into account the hiatus of the last 18 months - and the likely repeat performance of these less than competent reps at the end of the new agreement - will be [much] less tha 3%. You could have got that without CivilAir!

When you go to the dog and pony show, look the AsA guys in the eye, and see if there's just the hint of a smirk there - they KNOW that they've beaten you.

Don't shoot me - I'm just trying to get you to see that every time you 'negotiate' with AsA - you lose some small part of your rights and conditions. Were you working 'compulsory overtime' 6 years ago - no. Were you paid an 'all-in' salary 15 years ago - no. Did you have regular 2/3 day weekends off 9 years ago - yes. Every time you go into EBA negotiations - you think you win - but in fact, you lose.

OK, OK - you think I'm fishing - go ahead and think that - BUT do think about what they're going to tell you in the roadshow - and watch for signs of a 'behind the scenes' deal between your 'reps' and AsA and the Government.

TT
:rolleyes:

I will say it again:

Wait for the roadshow, ask your delegate about your individual position with this proposed offer.

Well Concerned has no idea who anybody here is.

He is trolling to find out the details of the offer because he doesn't know, and/or wants to undermine the process.

Ask yourself why that is?

So far, everybody has seen he is a troll and has not reacted.

'The Union' (which is it's members) has not 'sold out' as is being implied by the ignorant Well Concerned. It has negotiated the best possible outcome, and now the membership will vote on it one way or the other.

Stooges however will not have a say in it.

TT, laughter is good for you.

We thank you for your concern about our CA. I am not even going to question why you seem to have flip-flopped (perhaps the figure 94% rings a bell?). We also thank you for your concern over our employment, but if you are management, who do you consider would have the better job security at the moment? You're only one 'restructure' away, so perhaps your energies would be better spent a little closer to home....

Mr. WC reminds me exactly of the trolls that appeared on the QF Engineers thread during their industrial negotiations. Their purpose was to spread Fear Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD - it's a computer marketing term).

Mr. WC has made Two allegations:

1: AsA is actively trying to find out which of it's staff post on Pprune. This may or may not be true, but the effect of the allegation is "chilling" in the legal sense of perhaps inhibiting AsA staff from joining debate on Pprune through non specific threats of future retribution.

2. Controllers will lose by not accepting whatever the current offer is when it is revealed. This is coupled with an allegation that your representatives are stalling the negotiations for their own purposes. This is designed to divide representatives from those they represent if possible.

Frankly, were I a moderator, I would have thought #1 is grounds for permanent banning.

Speaking of restructures - how long will it take for another major sweep of the GM ranks? TFN can't be happy about having to go in and negotiate the CA himself after spending so much time and money on his supersized CA netotiating team.... and now the problems with the college. CF seems a sure bet to be ousted - what I want is a real HR team again. Instead of sitting in the ivory tower looking after managers they should put HR back in the centres.

My argument is this - we want to retain staff because of the staff shortage, we want staffing issues dealt with quickly and realistically and we want the service areas of the organisation to provide a service to the people performing the core work (making the money).

I had a HR issue a few weeks ago and called the number and was told to talk to my manager.... who had told me to call the number to begin with. Real helpful guys.

There are other organisations who have done this already and staff were warned that if it occurred again they would be given their "marching orders".

Why do some many of you care about WC's comments and get upset by them. This person may, or may not be a troll but who cares!

Back to the original thread topic, what is being done to overcome the staff shortages?
That subject appears to have disappered along the way.