JQ EBA to sell out new hires
 

Hear the pretty poor offer negotiated with the best of intentions by non professional negotiators from the JPA has been put to the troops.

Boys not happy. Deal sells out new hires in attempt to curb AWA's. Gents, AWA's are dead. There is no further threat of their use and JQ can't get enough people to join now on the crap conditions.

Throw it out, get professional help, start again and try not to negotiate the lowest cost deal again. Surely you guys deserve more.

If not now, when?

Please, please, please can the J* pilots at least start talking to AIPA so that the two groups can be more fully equipped. All part of the GRADE process. Surely by now you've worked out that the QF crew aren't out to 'steal' your promotions and your future- and more importantly, nor can they- and are just after a deal that enables both groups to have a better future.

I can only hope I guess.

Anyone have any info on what has actually been offered :sad:

Hostage negotiation is handled by highly trained professional negotiators.
EBA's in most cases are handled by highly trained professionals whom are unbiased and not suffering from stockholm syndrome.

If these guys are going to get anywhere near an offer even worthy of consideration then this one needs to be voted down without reservation.

New negotiations handled by professionals need to begin and a realistic offer drafted.

J* need to stand together on this and vote NO loud and clear, the time has defineately come.

If the angry Irishman can get a 84% package increase then im sure his crews are entitled to something more than the standard 3% benchmark.

This should be an entertaining post to say the least ......

How about AIPA get off their butts and approach the J* pilot group - FAST!

On 20/12/07, the AIRC awarded AIPA coverage of QF group. What does this mean for J* pilots? J* pilots have heard NOTHING from AIPA.

The JPC and AFAP and J* management do not want AIPA, so AIPA must go and sell themselves to the J* pilot body.

I suggest AIPA write to EVERY J* pilot and explain what the AIRC decision means and what can be done about the proposed EBA before voting at the end of Jan.

If anyone from AIPA reads this, please be proactive and act now. Don't sit around expecting the J* pilot group to come knocking on your door - it won't happen!

High Talker not worth mentioning what is on offer for it is complete crap :ouch:and I hope the vote reflects that but after what happened last time I am not confident:ugh:, fellow Jetstar pilots lets show we actually have some balls this time and vote No:ok:. This is the best time to send a STRONG message to the company.Surely we consider ourselves worth more than this

The feeling around the traps is that EBA will be voted down by at least 80-90% of the pilot group.....

The problem is that the JPA thinks this is a good deal........

However I can say that from all the guys I fly with we think is utter crap in todays enviroment....

A JPA member has said that the company has hundreds of people waiting to join and they have to get this done to help attract more, but I feel they are being led astray by Joyce and his henchmen...

If this is voted in (which it won't be) why would guys in GA go to JQ, when QF and VB are also hiring huge amounts of pilots and they can get paid more there.

I have joined AIPA and I hope when (this is voted down) they throw in the bin where it belongs, and then can represent us for a much better deal!!

We may have crossed swords in the past and we may well again in the future however as a fellow association member you can count on my for my full support on industrial matters.

Just say 'no'.

negotiators?
 

Do not be misled by loose descriptors such as 'professional' versus 'non-professional' and instead take a hard look at the talent pool on offer to do the negotiations.

During 2005 the AIPA Reform Group posited that professional negotiators would solve the pilot woes and hoofprints (what an apt callsign) even suggested that someone of Greg Combet's stature would fit the bill. Well, after heaping crap all over the EBA7 and previous negotiators the ARG swept into office and simply recycled a multitude of old cronies who struggle to do any better with L/H EBA8 (or any other issue). The AIPA membership have been deluged with myth and very little fact.

Forget those who with feint of pen and taint have sketched pictures suggesting they can save you. Instead, find yourselves some genuine talent that understands the regulatory enviroment and the IR perspective from each side of the table.

Look...you all went through this before and the JQ guys decided to go their own way.

Best of luck to them!

Hey Bongo, we have relatively stable rosters, sustainable working conditions and reasonable pay. In the most hostile IR environment that Australia has ever seen and under extreme pressure from an outdated management team, AIPA has held it's ground admirably. Don't let the irishman scare you. AIPA is the ONLY effective pilots association in the country. Be part of it or be left behind. It is as simple as that.

I have now seen the offer put forward and some of the comments from a JPC member defending it.

Aparently J* has hordes of pilots waiting in the wings as it were, wishing to work for JQ under an AWA.

I'm not sure what they smoking during the whole negotiation process but it must have been plenty strong medicine.

I would have to agree with some of the previous comments that it is indeed complete crap and lacks anything of any substance.

If it wasn't a serious proposal you would laugh at it and I'm guessing there will be some stiffled laughs at the ensuing road shows where bags of fairy dust will be sprinkled around the rooms in an attempt to distract everyone from the harsh realities of the new sh*t sandwhich they are all being asked to take bite of.

The JPC should be ashamed in even presenting it, yes it really is that bad.

VB pilots voted the first spastic offer down by 97%. Hit'em hard the first time around fella's. Our second offer did involve better money and some (I say some lightly) better conditions. Its a massive pilot shortage out there guy's, don't blow the opportunity like VB pilots did. Make it hard for the HR people, make them earn their money. You deserve a big pay rise, and don't forget, your company has alot of aircraft coming and they need your skills. Get some professional HR people to represent you. VB pilots didn't and look what happened.

Posted elsewhere but I'll post it again...
 

To the LCC MUST = LOW PAY crowd...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am genuinely intrigued. How is it that some pilots can be cautious with weather forecasts, meticulous with the facts of an MEL and its application, sticklers for SOPs & procedures and yet buy management spin as if it's gospel every time?

In efforts to contain or lower costs an airline can:
- shorten the seat pitch to fit more passengers in,
- minimise the services offered (lounges, bag transfers, meals etc),
- make passengers pay for what they actually use,
- employ staff numbers commensurate with the reduced services it offers, and
- always keep pounding the line that it'll all be unviable if it pays pilots more.

What an airline can't escape is:
- fees charges associated with flying and infrastructure,
- fuel costs,
- maintenance costs(one hopes anyway!), and
- the need for pilots (among some other indispensible skill-sets).

How is it then, that;
- J*'s AJ, SW et al command world-leading packages for their job-descriptions and company size but their pilots accept the low-water-mark as 'necessary' for company viability?
- despite doing the same job as any others in RPT (ie on the pointy side of the flight-deck door) LCC pilots in Oz seem to accept the low-water-mark as 'necessary' for company viability?
- many pilots seem unable to seperate seat pitch, services and pay-for-extras in LCCs from the pivotal and unchanging obligations of the pilots (& engineers for that matter) whether LCC or 'full-service'.

I live in hope that improved situational awareness of pilot shortages, and the fact that NO airline can make money without pilots, will help the "we can't afford to be paid more or life won't be worth living" crowd wake up and more astutely value their services.

All the best to the sensible J* pilots who don't believe the offer.

Keg is right you guys need to unite.

VB boys voted the crap deal down to the tune of 97%. Same size plane - should be similar conditions.

Some lads at vb are doing pretty well these days...

Nice thought, but whilst the current captain of AIPA keeps steering the boat there is no chance the majority of pilots at JQ would even entertain AIPA. But it's a nice thought keg.

If the EBA sells out new hires, then the following will occur:

Potential new hires will seek employment elsewhere.
F/O's can't be released for command training due to F/O shortage.
Fleet expansion grinds to a halt.

Any current F/O's would be mad to vote for that deal.

It sounds like a similar deal accepted by LH Cabin Crew and it has Oldmeadow's fingerprints all over it.

Is that the same captain who succesfully managed to gain the legal right to represent all QF group pilots rostov?

Much to the dismay of Qantas and Jetstar might I add!

What is it with guys like you mate?
Just what sort of an agenda are you pursuing anyway?

Jetstar pilots are highly trained professionals who are just as devoted to their career and professional standing as your nearest QF pilot. Nothing differentiates them except the pay and conditions. They too contribute to the GD and AJ caviar fund do they not?

I long for the day when I can pass by a Jetstar pilot in a terminal somewhere and actually stop and shake his hand knowing full well that we stand united as colleagues and brothers in arms. You heard me mate Brothers In Arms!

Because just like my little boy looks at me with pride and wonder when I wear my uniform so does the little boy of the Jetstar pilot and I'll be damned if I sit back and watch management systematically destroy the financial well being and security of either of our kids!

To guys like G.Cantstandya I say good on you mate and welcome aboard. You have my support and respect not as a QF pilot but as a man. You are a rare breed mate that I hope will become common place in the near future.

The time to unite is now and to hell with all the doomsayers and doubters.

tenretni maybe you should give up your job and go work overseas for a few years like many of the Jetstar boys had too. Then maybe you would appreciate why they came back on lower conditions. If QF sacked you all tomorrow you would tun back after a couple of years for a job on half the pay.
And yes there is many overseas joiners in the pipe line AND HOW WE WOULD LOVE awaS TO OPERATE FOR qf MAINLINE........

So would some one like to post the details of the offer?

Good luck to Jetstar pilots with their negotiations. As I have said before. They deserve nothing less than their VB brothers/sisters. Don't accept any less.

tenretni:D:D:D
GD and AJ did not spend time in the outback working in GA or hard yards in the RAAF (no gee up this time), working their but off in very trying conditions to get where they are. But they still attempt to ROB you and you family by delivering another offer not close suitable. Don't accept less. You are all highly trained proffessionals who have a diverse variety flying experince and you deserve to be paid as a proffesional.

Yet again:D:D:D

Good luck to all the Jetstar pilots with their EBA negotiations, we will all watch very closely as the future of other EBAs across the region will later hinge on yours. Lets hope the bar is raised for you and the industry.

I have said my piece but just for the record Trashed Aviator I spent the best part of 10 years overseas.

Busting my balls like many others.

So did that mean that I had to come back to OZ on substandard pay and conditions?

Not on your life mate!

To my Jetstar colleagues I say dont buy into arguments like that and lets work together to fix this mess of an industry in terms of pilot pay and conditions for all!

Don't let the bastards hiding behind expensive suits and chesire cat grins take your pride away from you and your family!

Time to unite!

Hmmmm........let me have a guess. It wouldn't be................ 3% by any chance?

Tentri/Keg,

Thanks for the support, I think it's going to be a long road for us.

We are not only battling management but I now feel the JPA have really no idea when comes to what our T&C's should be.

If you read one of our JPA's members posts on our web forum it would be plain to see, i'll try and cut and paste it and put it on prune to show you what we are up against.

I for one believe that from the bullet proof door onwards we should all be on similar t&c's regardles of whom we work for and i'm sure most of the guys I fly with feel the same and will vote accordingly.

As i've said before the new EBA will be voted down by the majority of the pilot group and a vote of no confidence passsed on the JPA, which will open the door for AIPA to take control....here's hoping anyway!!

Posted by Trashed Aviator on a thread about the Aviation Crystal Ball.

One can only surmise your motives for your posting in this thread.

Is it really that much of a surprise that the offer is garbage?

Do u folks who fly at J* need reminding of who signed off on the crap deals to fly the A320? What about when the lure of flying a shiny A330 came along, did u folks turn down that offer in the hope of something better??

I am sorry but I have absolutely NO sympathy for the J* pilots. It was YOU who set the bar lower then VB when Impulse pilots agreed to the offer to fly the A320's at substandard wages.

Live with what u signed up for and stop complaining about it, you only have ur selves to blaim.

How about renaming the thread "J* pilots get another chance to f*ck it up for everyone else again"

General Warning
 

How about you moderate your language, Strobe?

Otherwise it's chop-chop for you :=

A note for all:

Stay on topic and don't get personal.

This thread has the potential to get some positive communication going between the relative parties. Please don't spoil it.

TID.

Strobe,

Calm down. You are new to this world and need to see a slightly bigger picture. Qantas T and C are part of the reason why the airline is called a Legacy carrier....aka Dinosaur. It lives in a highly protected world....just look at how hard they try to keep SQ off the Pacific.....and can screw exorbitant money out of the punters.

The big US carriers all went through a very painful re-adjustment over the last few years and are mostly all the better for it. Ansett never did and died. The thousands and thousands of jobs created in VB and JQ over recent years are there because the people, pilots and others, accepted the growth/salary trade-off.

If you want jobs and growth.....you need that different paradigm. It's a business and pilots are voluntarily part of it. I have no idea what is in the EBA...haven't seen details anywhere here. If JQ and VB continue to suceed in their international operations...as they should...there will inevitably be an upward drift in conditions. You probably don't even know who PanAm was......but they didn't adapt and now are long gone....though once as dominant on the Pacific as QF is for now.

Slagging off an EBA that you haven't seen, and won't work under is not assisting the cause of better jobs. Neither will appeals to AIPA whose agenda is not job or growth friendly.

28 posts and counting, and still no actual details of the offer everyone is speculating about......

Genex,

Your comments while generally accurate about history, have absolutely no relevance to today.

A. J* guys and gals are so far underpaid by industry standards it is a disgrace
B. QF crew get market rates. We are not part of a supposed dinosaur that u and GOD try to paint.
C. The US carriers went through painful re-adjustment because they were failing businesses PRIOR to Sep 11! That event allowed the managements to have an excuse to cut and slash faster than they could have!
D. Re: C, Qantas is making buckets of cash.
E. I am old enough to remember Pan Am, and it didn't fall under point D.

M

Yes....but if QF is making buckets of cash on routes where it has iron-clad protection, how can you say pilots are getting 'market rates". Exactly what is the market rate for a wide-body Captain on Pacific routes when there is no free market?

Those who don't learn from history....learn from history.

Legacy carrier is a term coined and used within the wrong context by some creative but piss poor management with sinister intent.

Genex if we choose to embrace the Legacy concept the way management want us to, then we acknowledge that the terms and conditions of all staff are the only obstacle to success.

If thats the case then give me GD's job and I will do it for less than his 6 million.

Its just not that simple mate.

I too remember Pan Am and at the time of this carrier's demise the term Legacy Carrier had not even been whispered.

In any event an airline can carry a legacy in positive terms. Safety, operational excellence, proud history, national icon. Put that together with record billion dollar profits and I'd say its one hell of a legacy.

AIPA does have an agenda Genex. Ans as much as you or anyone else finds it unpalatable the success of AIPA's strategy revolves around a united pilot body. If you truly believe that AIPA a group of pilots is out to destroy Qantas to bite the hand that feeds them as it were,then what does that say about the credibility of the rest of your post?

With all due respect not a hell of alot.

Well said...you parrot the party line beautifully. But......between the 70's and now Southwest, Easyjet and Ryanair have put 1000 ish jets in the sky, carried zillions of people and created scores of 000's of jobs while your "legacy" world view slowly strangled other airlines with the "We've always done it this way" ideas.

Let's have this discussion again in a few years when the dinosaur 744 fleet has weathered a few years of Open Skies on the Pacific.

You too will learn from history.....practically everything in aviation has been done before

Could somebody please post the details of the offer.

I would have thought that was a no brainer GC, the boys across the road in the other 2 LCCs are getting circa 20% more pay for identical jobs ?
Sorry, I forgot the only " no brainers " are some of the JPC reps :rolleyes:

Hang in there, I can tell you that the 100s of Aussies wanting to come home is the biggest load of BS he has come up with to date, the Leprechaun is clutching at straws ;)

Oh now I get it Genex. Open skies on the Pacific throw in a little Sars and maybe the odd terrorist campaign and your solution.....call it a legacy airline and cut the pay and conditions of all staff.

Brilliant!

Management are often heard saying that in order to attract the worlds best managers you need to offer them carrots laced with gold.

To do what I ask you? If the problem is as simplistic as you seem to suggest then who needs them right?

Come on mate lets cut the crap and lets unite.

We are pilots not airline analysts like that self professed expert that keeps popping up in the popular press from time to time.

I say to all Jetstar pilots that for the first time AIPA has the legal right to represent you and all QF group pilots.

I and many others are extending our hand of friendship and solidarity to you all.

Let us all work together and bring back the true meaning and essence of the words Professional Pilot.

Genex - the US Legacy carriers you talk about had existing finacial issues. Throw in a hull loss and terrorist parnoia and the punters won't travel. Managers hide behind chapter 11 and the deck of cards fall.

Poor old Pan Am obviously had financial issues and also suffered from the Lockerby bombing.

QF will remain in good shape for a long time provided the pacific remains as regulated as it is..... and god willing no hull losses.

Learn from history........ JPA will get you less. GD and AJ will sell you loads of BS and scaremongering.

Aaaaah Genex it all becomes clear -

I didn't realise there are market rates depending on the specific routes I fly. I better drop in and let management know that you have come up with a new concept for paying pilots.

I love it when someone shoots their own argument down. Jet* guys would love it if they were paid the same rates as the three LCC you mentioned. Hmmm...but maybe that doesn't work cos they fly on different routes to those carriers........

I agree with Jetbest on page 1.

Why do you think AJ can convince his superiors that he is worth $xxx ?
It is because he has convinced them that he can fill is cheap planes with cheap chips ,cheap peanuts,cheap pilots and cheap F/As.... to make his targeted profit. That is it in a nutshell.
To the company upper management, you are regarded higher than the peanuts only because you are a bigger part of the budget. I am sure that if they could get pax to pay more for more experience, while keeping your salaries the same ,they would try it. In the meantime they probably spend more time looking for more profitable peanuts to sell.Conditions?
Low cost operations are all about looking for alternative income streams and finding the cheapest supplier. Believe me, if CAAS would let them subcontract the supply of pilots and cabin crew, they would leap at it. Don't think for a minute that this has not been discussed in high level meetings.

Me thinks it's all a bit late to do much now.They know that you will take less money because...you already have.


Remember 20+ years ago, back in the Australian airlines' golden age.People were grumbling about better conditions on the "world wide market" , "salaries comensurate with experience and qualifications" and "contracting , that's what I'll do in a couple if years time.Make the big $$$", well, many of those did NOTHING because they wanted to stay at home as well. Guess what, they weren't going to get both then and it won't happen now.You will get even less now because you are replaceable.
Those that have returned from OS ,look at the salaries of the local pilots that you may have been working with in other countries.To many of these guys a Jstar salary will be an improvement not to mention he can get 4 times the house for his money ,better education for the kids and national health.
I don't condemn you for trying to improve your lot but see the forrest for trees .

Here are some hpothetical figures

An airline pilot flies ~850 hrs per year, ie that is the amount of time that they are producing income for the company.

If said pilot got a $20,000 pay rise, this is an extra ~$23.50 paid per flying hour. So with two crew getting the same payrise lets say an even $50 per hour more.

One a typical Aussie flight of say 2hours that is an extra $100 so less than $1 per passenger to pay for the payrise of $20,000 for every pilot.

I am sure a lot of pilots would love a $20K payrise and the $1 per ticket would not even be noticed...

Very simple analysis and yes it does ignore some other costs but, as a passenger, an extra $1 on my ticket to have happy pilots is more than worth it!

Just my worthless 2 cents...

(Don't shoot me down for the figures, they can be out by a factor of five and it means nothing to the average passenger).