100% true my friend, I'm in HK.

However what the Australian Airlines offer their Pilot's effects me as well.

I don't know what the JQ Pilot's have been offerered. All I'm saying is that it is the business ( when you said it's non of your business )of all Aussie Pilot's what another Airline does or doesn't pay.

p.s. The current CX salary for direct entry F/Os ( $92,000 AUD ) is a stupid joke. Why anyone with Jet time would want to join is beyond me.

permFO

You are correct in saying that the last LH EBA negotiated by AIPA did in deed put in place, amongst other things, a Singapore basing for second officers which had putrid conditions attached to it. What you then fail to go on and say is that the committee and executive responsible for endorsing such an act were unceremoniously thrown out of office within days and replaced with the current AIPA team. The new team had attempted to stop that EBA being voted and have spent the last 2 years attempting to mop up the mess left by their predecessors. You might also note that no second officer has ever been sent to Singapore on a basing under EBA 7conditions. LH EBA 8 is being negotiated at the present time and a very strong rumour is that the Singapore basing provisions will disappear altogether.

On another note the general thrust of the JQ EBA offer is known and considering the current, and growing, shortage of pilots, change of Government with ensuing changes to industrial laws, Qantas shares nose-diving and a senior management team that will have to eventually front the market and shareholders with explanations, legal actions for price-fixing including class actions, industrial problems from unions seeking reasonable conditions in the face of a management team that seems to care nothing about wastage and lost opportunities it would appear now is the perfect time for pilots that are behind the eight ball on terms and conditions to put their hands up and say enough is enough. The JQ offer is way below what could be achieved with a bit of solidarity and careful negotiating.

Keep in mind that what is being offered is a non-union collective agreement. This will lock out union representation for any JQ pilot for the 5 years of the EBA at least. Whilst the JPA has good intentions they are not a registered body and thus any dispute arising under the EBA, if voted up, will end up being JQ vs Individual Pilot. The significance of this is that the individual will lack the protection of a collective organization representing them (might be a very costly exercise for an individual in any dispute). Now is the time for JPA to get together with AIPA and delay a vote until a much more honest deal is put on the table for JQ pilots.

Your point about all new hires being employed under the EBA and not AWAs is a perfect example of the mis-information that is being given to JQ pilots. As of the second week in February the new Labor transitional Industrial Relations Bill will take effect which prevents any further AWAs coming into existence so with or without a vote there will be no new AWAs! My point being that rushing into this vote will end in disaster for JQ pilots and they should en-masse be saying to the JPA and JQ management that we want it put on hold until we have more information on which to commit 5 years of our lives. There is absolutely no hurry to commit to a vote.

Doing a search on permFO previous posts, it would appear that he once flew for Qantas and is now flying with Jetstar. permFO now seems to be very anti Qantas/AIPA when AIPA re trying to lift conditions. Why?

inconsistency
 

:confused: Just Relaxin might try and explain how come the same constituents that voted the ARG into office also voted YES to that EBA7.

Too many are being blinded by accurately calculated ambiguity and this will continue until the members of AIPA start asking for and getting the truth, without being distracted by fillibuster and half-statements that confuse the AIPA COM.

Could it be that most were honourable enough to recognise that a deal had been negotiated?
Could it be that the infamous MOU might have been a done deal too, except the moustached leaders of ARG chose to fiddle and meddle with it and that is why it must now go to court?

What happened with the ARG in 2005 was a bit like a carload of pilots at the end of a long hot drive and gagging for a beer. They hit town and immediately picked a fight with GD who happened to be the owner and operator of the only hotel and grog shop in the town. It is now 2008 and the guys still have no beer because the ARG were out of control and lacking enough smarts.

Just Relaxin, I don't know why you would state that a union would be locked out for the next five years. It is a fact that the AFAP is a party to the current EBA at JQ, and that both the current and proposed EBA provide for Union representation for any pilot that requests it or has an issue.

FF- It demonstrates that AIPA is on the outside looking in when it comes to J* conditions.

DM- Your deductive reasoning is brilliant and I think you should change your handle to NS Sherlock! You ask why? When the current head of AIPA goes to the Senate and suggests that J* pilots are not capable of flying LH ops and that their pilots are trained to a lesser standard during their Command upgrade then I doubt his sincerity when offering a glossy olive branch.

I have no doubt that at the first opportunity AIPA and its membership would happily shaft J* pilots if they could gain unfettered access to the cockpits of J* aircraft. As I have said before, when mainline pilots actually have the courtesy to return a greeting as they pass you in the concourse, then I will believe that they are fair dinkum in wanting J* pilots to be equal partners in a single pilot union.

Looks like BA pilots are about to take a firm stand with "Open Skies". A major impetus for this is that we have seen what has happened with Jetstar/Qantas.

If Qantas and Jetstar (and the regionals for that matter) do manage to get one union (AIPA) negotiating their agreements, and one seniority list I think that would go a long way to recovering the situation.

It would mean a sacrifice for many mainline pilots though. An 11 year mainline FO being forced to let a 12 year Dash capt take a 767 command. Would you be willing to do this to help bring T&Cs closer together for all?

Perm FO said This is a fact. 3 Sims plus line sectors for Jet* Command upgrade does not equal the training given to your Mainline Peers:eek:

Aren't you Jet* guys sick of being short changed by Joyce and Co when it comes to your professional improvement?

There are a couple of impatient ex Ansett Pilots who have only recently resigned from QF Mainline in order to obtain Jet* Commands. How inconvenient for them now if the status quo gets upset and AIPA/Jetstar pilots put their mutual distrust of each other behind them to work for the common good!

Just Relaxin
 

Suggest all JQ pilots read what Just Relaxin has to say very cafully - his words contain the only "facts" which have been posted on this thread.

JR- AllI know is that the AFAP had input into the EBA proposal and they have stated in a newsletter that they have repondency to our current EBA.

Capt Dungduster- You are wrong and would you enlighten us as to what a QF 737 F/O gets when he/she moves to the LHS of the same aircraft type. That was where AIPA got it wrong when they suggested to the Senate that J* pilots were given less training. For the record J* Command trainees get a Command school 4 sims, line training, a progress sim check, further line training then a 2 day line check. If QF get anything different for a seat swap I will be happy to stand corrected.

PermFO,

Good thing you are happy to stand corrected, a seat change command is still CONSIDERABLY more that you describe...

Also you should stand corrected on this as well:

I make a point of trying to catch the eye of J* pilots as I walk by in order to nod hello, however, they all seem to have something of great interest happening on the tips of their shoes.

I was even in a lift with one, and when I said G'day I got no response, I thought, its OK he probably thought I was talking to someone else, although then I realised there was only two of us in there.

Apples with apples
 

QF 737 Command Promotion- already endorsed on type.

Four days of ground School- various bits and pieces. EPs, security, company stuff, etc.

COM1- COM9- total of 9.

Sectors: 20 Training, 6 pre final command check (different rules to normal training) and then 6 for the final command check. Total 32.

Ostensibly it's 7 weeks all up but I reckon you're pushing to get nine sims done in the two weeks they say it takes.

My experience of J* crew in the terminal is the same as speedy's. Very hard to catch their eye let alone have a chat. :( I'd certainly welcome the opportunity to get to know each other a bit better. I apologise in advance for the few prats that we have just as I know that some J* people will be less than impressed with some of the actions of their colleagues too.

PermFo, I was flying with one of your ex AN colleagues recently who related a story to me. He has a mate (ex QF SO) who is now an FO on the A330 (Jetstar) and flying to Asia as PF, he asked the captain to put in Bali on the fix page. The captains response, "Why?" The FO then said for situational awareness. The captain then asked how do you do it. The FO said put the ICAO designator in on the fix page. The captains response - "What's an ICAO designator?"
Seems the training may well be lacking.
I've also had the experience of totally being ignored by Jetstar pilots even though I've said hello to them.

I think there was a feeling of us vs them going on at JQ, for what reason i'm not sure, maybe it's all the slandering we cop on pprune or its our "great" leader telling us not to be polluted by the QF culture as they are "yesterdays" pilots..

However, I think now after seeing this disgusting new EBA some/most of us have had a gutful of Joyce and his threats and are desperate to get AIPA involved and join forces with the QF pilot group to stregthen our postition.

With regard to JQ pilots not acknowledging some of you guys, i believe this mainly due to the fact that a lot of JQ pilots were called scabs by QF drivers when the (crappy) wide body eba went through, and i have seen some friendships dissapear because of this...sad indeed I say...

Lets hope the future holds us all pulling in the same direction and seeing each other as professional pilots, not the enemy as Joyce/Dixon would like!!

Condition lever, I'd have a very quick think about editing that if I were you.

Perm FO said When people start using insulting language one generally knows ones touched a sore point:ouch:

A cursory check of Perm FO's previous posts confirmed my suspicions of his background and his inherit bias.

This post shows his Ansett past and then this post shows his QF past.

It is in your own self interest in your quest for a quick command you want AIPA/Jet* to continue their distrust of one another.:=

Well, you made your choice to resign from Mainline - looks like your gamble is going to fail.:D

We here in Mainline are determined to put the past behind us and embrace our Jet* colleagues to improve their T and C in order to improve ours.:ok:

Oh Clodbuster, how generous! And without a thought that your AIPA mates would take all the JQ commands....never crossed your mind. Doesn't affect me except that hypocrisy annoys me. And also that if AIPA get coverage and handle T & C for JQ I'll sell my Qantas shares and replace them with Virgin and Tiger shares as they'll be the only beneficiaries.

Kevin Rudd was attending a convention in Kalgoorlie, Western Australia and decided to check out the local brothels. When he got to the first one he asked the Madam, "Is this a union house?" "No," she replied, "I'm sorry it isn't." "Well, if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?" "The house gets $80 and the girls get $20," she answered.

Offended at such unfair dealings, Kevin Rudd stomped off down the street in search of a more equitable, hopefully unionised shop.

His search continued until finally he reached a brothel where the Madam responded, "Why yes sir, this is a union house. We observe all union rules." Kevin Rudd asked, "And if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?" "The girls get $80 and the house gets $20." "That's more like it!" Kevin Rudd said.

He handed the Madam $100, looked around the room, and pointed to a stunningly attractive blonde. "I'd like her," he said. "I'm sure you would, sir," said the Madam. Then she gestured to a 92-year old woman in the corner, "but Ethel here has 67 years seniority and according to union rules, she's next."

Sherm, you have no idea how the Group opportunity list would work. J* commands would go to all J* pilots first then whoever had the highest DOJ in the Qantas group. If that is a Q400 Captain, so be it.

Qantaslink commands would go the same way.

So would mainline commands. Everyone gets first divs on their own branch of the "w" then it goes to group seniority next.

No current J* pilot would lose out their J* command to anyone else.

Why don't you check your facts before spouting such rubbish?

Spot on Capt Kremin...

Captain Sherm,
No one is out to steal JQ jobs, it's just about making your T&C closer (or on par) to that of QF mainline so that we can't be played off against each other in the future. Apologies for wanting to work together as a group to get you guys a pay rise...pretty selfish of me.

As long as JQ pilots persist with voting up conditions lesser than mainline counterparts to fly essentially the same aircraft (i.e. 737 v A320, A330 v A330) then I can't help but think YOU guys want OUR flying - not the other way around!

As for your comment's about selling QF shares, what a crock of ****! Low cost doesn't equal low pay, when will you guys stop being brain washed by the Leprechaun? Plenty of other reasons to sell them anyway!

TL

All this posturing between JetStar and Qantas pilots, very much like a hillbilly shotgun wedding! Each clan equally distrustful of the other, however they are forced to put up with each other due to the forced nuptuals.
Yes, there has been things said from both sides,however I truely think that there could be a future of mutual trust and understanding if we could all just bury the tribalism for a moment.
The only ones winning out of all this, is the peanut gallery management who are sh!t stirring from the side lines.
The last thing we want to see is a feud of the Hatfield and the McCoys proportions, we all know how that went.
Here's a suggestion, how about AIPA and the JPC liaising and lets say we all arrange a Saturday soon,say at the Coogee Bay pub or somewhere. All Qantas ,JetStar, Virgin and whoever else is in town, pilots welcome.
Get to meet a few of your fellow aviators in a social context, egos left at the door if you please.
Reminds me of the esprit de corps that used to exist pre that event which shall not be mentioned.
Who knows you might discover the chap or chapet sitting in the other flight deck might not have two heads after all.:ok:

What a great idea!

I agree with CK. At least its something we can all agree on.

on second thought fark AIPA and the JPC lets just do it.
Anyone want to venture a venue and a date?

about time we realised that basically we're all really on the same side - a little combined strategy is a good thing...besides sounds like it could be a good afternoon...evening...night.........et al;

Great idea guys, as there doesn't seem to be much leadership from above, start from ground level with beer.
It's a generational thing, we can stop arguing about biplanes versus monoplanes, flying boats, 1966, AFAP/AIPA split, 1989, impulse, skygods, etc etc.
Bring it on as a regular event and venue Qlink, Jetstar, Virgin, Qantas, Emrites and Cathay guys on overnights, GA guys.
The old guys just have to remember to lock up their daughters......

Or if you're into to that sort of thing, sons as well!:}
Great idea, let's make it work rather than just talking about it.
I hear Corey Worthington might be free to act as the Party organizer.

Mr Boeing,

"Seems the training may well be lacking."

I heard a similar Jetstar story relayed to me by an ex AN FO.

It seems they were just touching down in BKK when the captain realised there may be insufficient runway remaining to stop the big jet, being heavy rain and all. So he jumped on the binders, pulled max reverse, checked spoiler deployment and they made the last exit comfortably.

Nice one skipper, remarked the FO as they taxied past the golf course.

Qantas may do longer command training but it does not mean better. What gets up my nose with posts like the one from Boeing is the inference that qantas training is the result of his input. As a line driver, you are trained according to ops policy and nothing more. If QF decided to impliment a shorter command course, you would have no say.

So Mr Boeing, JQ pilots undergo a shorter command course. How does this effect you? Are you claiming credit for the fact that QF has a longer command course?

AnQrKa, if that's a story about JQ's A330 it's not likely as they have never operated to Don Muang.

Bankstown, Anqrka is making a snide referral to the Qantas 1 over run at BKK in 1999. If you can see through it he's actually trying to compare penis size or 'your incident/accident was worse than mine'. Until J* have a prang (and i pray they don't) then the default response to any query about training standards will be a reference to a QF stuff up nearly a decade ( :eek: ) ago. It's a shame really because such knee jerk 'I know you are but what am I' type discussions invariably short circuit critical evaluation of current facts and situations. :(

Of course he could be right. J* crew may be aces and fly circles around QF drivers every day of the week. How sad then that their pay and conditions don't reflect that level of ability. In fact, their current pay and conditions don't take into account much of anything to do with what a professional pilot is 'worth' to the airlines. One could even make the argument that given that the J* pilots are obviously so much better than the QF drivers (who require longer courses and still aren't as good) that the J* pilots are chumps for accepting pay and conditions that are significantly less than their less skilled mainline colleagues.

Of course logic like this escapes people like (w)Anqrka who are only looking for every opportunity to fill in that chip that resides squarely on their shoulders by reminding QF drivers of the '99 prang.

As usual Keg, articulate and to the point. Well said.:ok:

Not sure where you got the idea that I had any input into Qantas training Dynasty Trash Hauler as I never said anything like it. And to answer your questions, JQ's shorter command course does not affect me. I have no idea why you think it might and no, I am not claiming credit for the fact that Qantas has longer command training courses. I'm at a loss as to where you got these ideas from. I was just relaying a story that was passed to me and I would have thought that someone in that position would not have had to ask those questions. I suspect that he has missed something in his training at some stage.
As for the BKK accident, it highlighted where QF training was lacking and it was rectified.

'your incident/accident was worse than mine'.

Keg, your somewhat childish response highlights how paranoid the QF pilot group is.

My post was an attempt to highlight that ANY airline can stuff up, QF included.

Your post then descends into a purile tirade about income levels. What relevence does this have to an A330 skipper not knowing what info is on the prog page of the mcdoo?

Boys boys boys. This thread really has degenerated into a "my penis is bigger than yours" competition and at the moment, the Jetstar pilots seem to be on the defensive with some seeming to have a real chip on their shoulders. It's about time you blokes got together and woke up to the fact that you both work for the same lot of cronies who have you by the short and curlies and I might sugest that the Jetstar pilots submit themselves to a pubic waxing so they don't get pulled too much further cos it hurts! But what would I know, I'm just a dumb regional pilot :):):):uhoh:

Pissing Contest
 

Oh Dear,

This thread has turned into one horrible pissing contest.:=

If I were senior management of the QF Group I would be reading the above posts and laughing my ass off. Grow up and leave personal/historical issues out of it.

It is very easy to divide and conquer a group that is already so hostile within its own ranks.:ugh::ugh:

The enemy is approaching whilst the defenders sit around throwing stones at each other. Comical but equally upsetting.Talk about an easy target.

The tread is about how to improve conditions for JQ pilots.

If you are not happy with the deal talk to your reps at the JPC or call a piss up and have a chat with your co workers.

This is not QF vs Jetstar or an AIPA v JPC debate.
Get it together or lose out.

The company and its negotiators are not in fighting but sadly we are.:{:{

Paranoid Anq? I don't think so. Sick of people bringing up QF1 as an example of why QF are so crap? Absolutely- with apologies to former AN staff! :eek: :} How QF1 relates to a J* skipper asking a J* F/O why he wants to but WADD into the fix page I don't know.

Personally I could take or leave putting airports into the fix page. I do it most times as I like the instantaneous pictorial view I can get as to where I am in time or space when I expand the range out. Sometimes I can't remember them either....particularly after indonesia/ICAO went and changed Bali, Surabaya and Ujung (I think....been a while since I've been along that route)...but to not know why your off sider doesn't want them there is pretty basic.

So yes, we pranged in BKK. It was poor change management and poor risk assessment by QF as an airline at the time and a couple of errors by crew at the coal face. As you say, it could happen to anyone and everyone. Why it is relevant when some people are shining the torch on some (apparent) issues in one aspect of J*'s (apparent) training regime has got me absolutely stuffed. I guess you're into relativism and so a person (QF drivers as it appears in this thread) is not allowed to mention the possible plank in J*'s current eye because of a plank in our own at some stage in the past. Personally having been in an airline where we had the plank, had the prang and have now had it removed I would think others would be grateful when we try and warn them about what looks like a plank in their eye too.

(If you don't know what I'm talking about with respect to planks and specks and so on then you need to go back to your basic year 5 Scripture teaching and Bible study.) :ok:

Keg- The reference you are looking for is Lk 6:41-42 and The Message gives a contemporary feel to it. Your point has been demonstrated perfectly across the last 150 odd posts as each person tries to scramble for the higher moral ground and in the end we all just sound and act like each other. Maxautobrakes suggestion of the get together reminds me of the Christmas truce of 1914 where the troops on the Western Front just got sick of fighting each other and for a period of a couple of hours met in no-mans land and discovered that the people on the other side were just like them. Lets hope the Australian airline pilot fraternity can avoid what came next.

How absolutely pathetic and appalling. You guys really ought to take a broad look at this thread and hang your heads in shame. Australian pilots will always eat the sh1t that is served up to them by GD and AJ.....Period!!! No ifs, no buts, just open wide and swallow.

Why? Because you all behave like such jerkoffs trying to outdo each other in whatever way you can, interested only in some kind of pissing contest, some kind of perverse need to prove yourselves to the world rather than get on with it, and why? What the f8ck is it good for and what have you ever acheived with this behaviour. Nothing, squat, niks, nada, f8ck all, and so it will go on.

For God's sake, take a look at what the likes of Dragonair have achieved just recently. And how did they do this? because they worked together, without ego, without the petulence of a two year old!! But hey, everyone knows we do it better in Australia. Yeah right......the lowest paid pilots in the western world. Onya Aus. :ugh: