Here are some more hypothetical figures,
There are about 500 pilots and they should get $20000/p.a. pay rise, minimum.
500 pilots x $20,000 = $10,000,000.
Management are not going to come to the party.
That is how bean counters work. Thay use there fingers on both hands.

$10,000,000 sounds like a lot but it is merely:

1 mans salary and bonus for 1 year - good on ya GD.

As for genex:

QF pilots are paid only very slightly above the average for ALL airlines (and that's after the 9/11 inspired pay cuts in the US). Interestingly QF pilots are paid below many LCC's (QF 737 is significantly less than Southwest for example).

The problems you predict for QF may well come true, but it is because our management is too busy worrying about screwing wages down rather than running the business. Just one example out of a thousand is those ageing 744's you speak of, they should have been supplemented and replaced by 777-300ER's by now, but shusssssshhhhh! don't tell anyone, GD wants us to believe they're old technology.

With those aircraft we could fly direct to DFW, ORD, YVR rather than just LAX and SFO, therefore the inevitable competition on the Pacific would be much less of a problem then it will be with the present Pacific strategy.

Nothing to do with Pilots, Legacy carrier or AIPA, just poor management pure and simple.

Ask any QF employee we can point out many many obvious problems with the way management is running this airline.

By all means take a below par salary to help management out, but forgive me if I think you are worth more, and forgive me if I think management should be coming up with better ideas given the amount they are paid.

Just one question: What is unique about the Jetstar business that "requires" their pilots to be the lowest paid in the western world? Serious Question....

tenretni,

Would the hand of friendship and solidarity that you are extending to J* pilots belong to the same outfit that for the selfish needs of its members knifed the then solid Pilot Union in OZ in the back some time ago?

Would it be the same one that now wants to steal from that same Union, by legal means rather than by the choice of those concerned, coverage of other QF group pilots that up until now have been left to fend for themselves?

Would it be the same one that does not appear to give a rats about any other members of the aviation community, preferring to leave that task to the aforementioned Union minus the membership it now wants?

It doesn't appear to have a track record of solidarity and therefore possibly no record of friendship to anyone other than itself. How can you expect J* or Qlink pilots to trust it?

We kicked out the guys that you refer to in an overwhelming rejection of previous AIPA regimes.

Since then there has been no inconsistency within AIPA regarding the desire to get all group pilots on a common list.

Remember the guy who spat in the Impulse pilots faces all those years ago (to the absolute horror of most AIPA members) is now the CP, clearly it could be taken that he was not acting in AIPA's best interests; as many of us thought at the time.

Like Speeeedy says

The QF pilots got rid of the old AIPA regime.

That hand of friendship that I and others are extending does not hold a gun mate!

AIPA has fought a court battle seeking the legal right to represent all QF group pilots and won.

The choice for my colleagues at Jetstar and Qlink is now a real one!

You talk of trust.

Well then lets join forces and give that trust a run for its money shall we!

Now there's two blokes trying to rewrite history!

Heres some figures for you:

50 pi55ed off Captains flying 800 hrs a year = 40000 hrs.
Every time they go flying, they just want to get home in a hurry, 330/.79 or .80 = extra 200kgs of gas/hour = 250 litres x 40000 = 10,000,000 litres @ ( approx ) $1/litre = $10,000,000

Not even touching on : working on days off, answering phone outside of reserve period, " interpretation " of MELs at out ports, " yep, we can make that taxiway ( brakes are pretty expensive ), " think I'll carry an extra ton of fuel, just in case " etc etc etc.

All things that a) are not safety issues and b) you and GOD have no control over AJ, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it :}

It's not looking good, the JPA (used car salesman as far as i'm concerned) really do believe this is great offer and keep telling us that if we don't sign the company will walk away from negotiations for at least 18 months (too busy with 787)

I think they have been knocking heads with the comapny for too long and don't know which way is up....

They don't seem to realise that we are the hardest working lowest paid airline pilots in the country..Well it's time for that to end..

I hope and urge all fellow JQ pilots to presure AIPA to represent us ASAP so Jetstar can be an airline people want to fly for, instead of being seen as a bunch of pilots willing to sell their mothers for a jet job!!

Details anyone......anyone?????????????

"They don't seem to realise that we are the hardest working lowest paid airline pilots in the country..Well it's time for that to end.."


That is a very arrogant statement to make. I know of a lot of other pilots(airline) in other companies IN OZ earning not as much and working just as hard.

At the end of the day NOBODY is making you stay there and NOBODY twisted your arm to go there in the first place. If you don't like it, you do have a very real choice.

Laying in one's bed that one made comes to mind.

Well Jake, after saying loud and often that J* was going to be crewed by QF mainline (and you KNEW because you were SO CLOSE to the negotiations) you then tried to say that the MOU meant it WAS being crewed by QF mainline.....

So we'll make that THREE blokes, shall we?

Wiz,

It was so close to being true but for a personality clash which created a few hiccups and the fact that a group of Impulse Pilots decided to become the lowest paid drivers in the western world.:D

Can't help bad luck eh! You feel sorry for the poor old legacy pilots? :{

AIR Warren
 

All pilot's considering joining JQ need to seriously consider their choice.
This EBA presents them with very little compared to what the Captains will receive via the proposed bonus scheme.
ALL Current Captains will receive the proposed bonus and any F/O's with greater than 3 years in the company will also get it.Lets face it, this is nothing
more than blatant B scale pay scheme that as always favours Captains.Combine this with JQ's current disregard for seniority and you get a scenario where an F/O who has been in the company for 2 3/4 years gets squat where a Direct entry Captain who joins today is entitled to a Bonus! Is this fair or a reward for a senior F/O? NO!! Its a crap deal and not only are junior pilot's being shafted by management but also by their senior mates.Well done lads Rob Peter to pay Paul.Send this EBA back where it came from and new starts need to watch this one closely before leaping into this mess.

How is the Jetstar Pilot Council selected? Are they elected? Can you hold an EGM and oust them? How does that side of it work?

These bottom dwellers were rejected by QF, AN, NJS, Kendell, Hazo, Easterns, Sunnies, Southerns and everyone else. So they had to PAY for a job with Impact via AirScrew Controls. Now they negotiate your T&C's!!!!
You blokes are yer own worst enema's. Sorry enemies:}


See youse!:ok:

Bottom line? Most Ozzy pilots who are qualified to operate the heavy metal have an inbox full of contracts and offers from the world over.

They are all just biding there time to see what JQ offers before they decide whether to come home or take the big money contract elsewhere.

JQ boys and girls, don't get spooked by the drawer full of "expressions of interest".

So No One knows what the offer is then from what I can work out. Plenty seem ready to talk about something they know nothing about though.

Nobodies business
 

I would say J* EBA is nobodies business bar the current pilots employed. Those outside so keen to know should hold their breath till it's agreed and registered or not. Then it will be posted on the various government websites.
What I can tell you is A320 jet commands in less than 24mths and forecast to continue for for quite a while to come.

It is an amazing world isn't it where a bloke/blokess with just over two years in an airline, maybe 4500 hours total 1500 jet considers themselves a "Senior First Officer". Average time to command at J* just on 2 years now, and probably for some time to come.

I can only emphasize what I posted previously:-
Genex, one day you,ll wake up to the fact that LOYALTY to managers like Alan Joyce is a one way street. He expects it from his staff but gives nothing in return. If all LCC's are in the same position re the pilot shortage then they can pay their pilots more without destroying their competitive position. A significant increase in salary would increase ticket prices only slightly and would probably not be noticed by Joe Public.

I can tell that the max a cpatian can make with "bonus'" is 203,000 and the min is 153,000 (with no o/t and company not making "enough" money to give bonus'

For the record. There is a groundswell of dissatisfaction at Jetstar. The new EBA package is a disgrace and should be voted down. I wouldn't like to be trying to sell this one to any one let alone a angry pilot body.

DM

Low cost carriers do not necessarily mean low cost pilots. It doesn't hurt to vote "NO". All QF group pilots should stand together and then we will see how tough the GD, AJ and IO's(Oldmeadow) are. If they thought about career progression it would be a lot less expensive.:)

Looks like Jet* just had a roadshow in South Africa... Watch out with that EBA boys and girls

And why do you think they're having a roadshow?

The continued threat that was referred to earlier that, "J* has queues of people waiting to join so you pilots had better agree to this EBA or else," is not borne out by the facts of needing to try and import labour.

BTW, can someone PLEASE give us some idea of what's on offer??

Thanks.

And didn't the new Labor Government out right say, no 457 visas in this sort of situation..
So how is the little leprechaun going to employ this cornucopia of Yarpie pilots then?:}
Sounds like a big bluff to me!

Leverage.

That is the key in negotiations. Whoever is on the pilots side of the table need to use the pilot shortage astheir bargaining chip. JQ and DJ are both having difficulty finding experienced jet qualified crew. Both airlines are also having problems of getting to the bottom of the seniority list looking for command suitable upgrade candidates. With all these new aircraft on order the situation will become more acute.

Terms and conditions will go up direct proportion to the needs of the airlines to crew these planes, since their only option is to attract typed and qualified Aussie crew from overseas - CASA will only allow a small percentage of command upgrades at minimum hours. Then it's park plane time and canx flights. EK (Emirates have been parking 777's due to lack of crew) they then put the money up to try and attract more people - but not enough to meet their crew requirements. The same will happen here, just a matter of time.

Many expat aussies are just waiting for an improvement in T's and C's. The EBA team can use this opportunity to expidite the process.

It will happen - but of course the sooner the better.

2 points.

Many of the South African pilots already have Australian residency with their familys esconsed safely in Australia while they commute to and from. They will have no problems. I don't know about the others and 457's.

The other is the reference to using the pilot shortage as a bargaining tool "so many expat aussies, awaiting an improvement in t&cs can come home"

Yoohoo, that one got me going. I am sure that is just what the J* pilots should be holding out for.

I hope the Jetstar guys do well out of their EBA. A few words of advice.

Firstly, now matter how good or bad the first offer of the EBA is, it must be rejected, this also goes for the upcoming longahul QF EBA. Just look at the shorthaul QF EBA. A very poor deal, which the pilots voted to not even send to the membership. A slightly better deal with a threat of a quick sign off or nothing, which was rejected by the membership. Then a reasonable deal which was accepted. Qantas/Jetstar WILL NOT put their best deal up front. There will be the usual rhetoric from the leprechaun, "accept it or we will replace all of you with xxx". However, this is THE time to make a stand and improve your conditions. You cannot be replaced.

Now how about someone, anyone stating what the offer is ? For both Qantas and Virgin, the details of their offer was released on PPrune very quickly. What are you so afraid of that effectively stops free speech.

I agree..... Why are the jetstar guys and girls so afraid to say what the offer is??? If it is truely bad, let everyone know. What is the offer ?????

If you were selling your house, would you accept the first offer?
If you were buying a car, would you accept the first offer?

I bet the answer is no, if your smart!

Like I said before, get some professional representation (hire some Mac Bank HR guru's or a good HR industrial relations expert) and absoluely give it to them. Be smart, learn from others mistakes! Call their bluffs and gain some respect from management that you guys are serious and professional. Sorry to say guy's, pilots are the worst when it comes to deal brokering and contract negotiating, look at the history and swath of spastic EBA's that we have negotiated for ourselves.

THERE IS MASSIVE PILOT SHORTAGE GOING ON!!!!!! WAKE UP!!!!!!WAKE UP!!!!!!!

sorry guys nothing to post yet, we have'nt even been given the document.

it's "supposed" to arrive in the mail sometime next week, with the vote at the end of the month

From what we have been told the deal in a nut shell is that all pilots will get a 3% increase and a retention bonus each year (paid 1,3,5 years of the eba though) FO's $4,000 Cap $10,000
and the captains also recieve a yearly bonus depending on the QF groups executive bonus package (whatever that means) of "UP TO" $10,000

overtime is calculated at 75 hours and is about $180 for captains and $110 for FO's per hour

Base pay for captains is around $150,000 and $87,000 for FO's (not the new ones though they are on 55%..

The JPA are claiming and i've run the numbers and they are seem to add up that if a captain does 150 hours O/T plus all extra allowances (sim/ground days etc) they should recieve just over 200k.

Gee G...don't stop there...tell everyone about the payrise longhaul SOs/'cruise FOs' will get when they are all instantly elevated to FO if the EBA gets up...or tell us about the long term FOs (whether due incompetence or industry slow down)...what will they be getting if the EBA gets up?...or about how pilots currently on AWAs being offered EBAs if the EBA gets up.

So young pilots who were flying Chieftain last mth will only be paid 55% of a captain...Just what does a 2000 hr/500 Multi command wonder have to offer that would suggest 55% was underpaid?

Come on...you've been slagging the J*pg off enough...back it up.

Very unusual for a moderator to be so partisan on D&G Much Ado? Did you forget to log out as a mod and log in as your 'real' person?

For the record I've seen Cantstandya be very pro J* in the past. We've locked horns on the issue in fact due to what I felt was a narrow minded view of what J* does for the wider pilot community. It's on the basis of that action and his action now in criticising the JPC that I'm pretty confident that he's a decent bloke. Stands up for his company when he thinks it's warranted but doesn't hesitate to give them (or the JPC) some stick when he thinks that is what is warranted.

Keg, for what is is worth I have for a very long time now enjoyed your posts. Generally they are very well considered and logical. I am surprised that you appear to have agreed with the assumed position that the JPA have sold out the troops.

I have to agree with a previous poster, that the current J* EBA discussions are not necessarily public domain. While GC, who is obviously a J* employee seems a bit wound up, I don't think I would like to be in his/her shoes after the event, should the proposed EBA be voted down.

I was thinking the same! Moderator- I don't think so...

As for JQ conditions- why not ask for the same as Rat Shorthaul- doing exactly the same work for the same group. In fact probably more efficiently.

Would anyone like to post Rat conditions in brief here??

I would love to post the rat conditions here, but Much Ado who is now exposed as a biased moderator would probably delete the post, because he wants us to believe that $200 an hour is somehow acceptable for a Jet Captain, although every plumber I know would laugh at the amount.

For the last 2 to 3 months I have noticed a distinct change in the behaviour of the moderators. Threads get merged for no good reason and become unreadable, posts get deleted etc etc. I'm sure you have all had the experience where you thought you read something but a few hours later you can't find it.... look no further, the moderators are having a shocker.

Turbtool, don't mistake my criticism of one moderator's partisan comments and my support for one contributor who is prepared to both defend and criticise his company when it's needed as either endorsing or rejecting the current offer to the J* pilots. I have no idea what that offer is and so my stance on this matter is unchanged from the first page- the Jetstar pilots and AIPA need to be working together for everyones benefit.

My concern is that the moderators in D&G have traditionally and generally not strongly espoused opinions on industrial or most other matters one way or another. I've previously criticised the Woomerii via Private Message when they were moderators that I felt they were being 'precious' about J*...interesting conversation back and forward. Interesting that it was comments such as this one by Much Ado that prompted that initial burst to the Woomerii.

Canstandya can say whatever he likes as long as he doesn't break the rules. If he broke the rules I'd expect the mods to take action. He hasn't broken the rules here and I don't like it when mods pass judgements on the merits of someones post when he hasn't broken the rules. Perhaps there is something in all of this that I'm missing and I'd love Much Ado to set me straight.

Excellent post Keg.
Well done.

I am obviously not the only one to notice that lately there have been thread comment and modification tendencies that seem to be unwarranted and that need addressing if the thread is progressing within the rules as this one seems to be.


Ahab

Wow...I remember years ago the Mods were a LOT MORE active than of late...never slow to express an opinion either....Keg would remember the 'good ol' days'...they were a lot more 'wild west' than now...I don't remember the mods ever giving much of a **** about the feelings of disaffected posters either.

My perception was MA was just asking questions...but I think emotions seem to be running very high in Australian aviation these days....amongst the younger pilots anyway.

From what I have heard the only group of J* pilots who might be 'worse' off are those potential new hire FOs who will be on the 55% deal but only for the first 12 mths...i.e. they don't even work for the company yet:confused:

The widely held view is that the bottom of the barrel is approaching in terms of the experience and skillsets the new hire FOs are bringing to the table...standards and experience are lowering but still have a very long way to go in Australia before it reaches EU equivalency of FOs with several hundred hours TT...I'd hate to be betting a career on the current situation lasting that long...I don't think it will ever get to that point in Australia...but I have been wrong before.

Personally I am a bit sick of reading how hard done by a group of young, inexperienced pilots feel they are being treated. The world is not, and never has been, as you wish it to be but just as it is. Just a few short years ago the experience levels of pilots now gaining entry into J*/VB etc would not have got them a job driving a C404...and it shows...now they arrive in the cockpit of a A320/B737/whatever, not by skill but a fluke of birthdate, and in no time flat are convinced the industry cannot survive without them.

The wheels will fall off this current domestic pilot shortage, and I doubt it is all that far off.

Whether it is Yarpies with residency, expats returning home from the sandpit/Asia (and it won't take all that many to do so - I can come up with 5 names currently showing serious interest in accepting offers that are/were on the table without even trying), more subprime woes, high oil prices or interest rates and inflation...it will come.

Won't it be fun having a BB awash with threads full of anguished cries of "its not fair" or "WTF Happened":confused: from 1500hr pilots who are suddenly faced with the average reality of this cyclic industry:ugh:

With all the stuff happening around the world at the moment Dixon et al are probably praying for this EBA to be voted down.