cruise/junior first officer 4 J*
 

has anyone heard much about the proposed introduction of cruise fo’s for the jetstar asia routes on the 330? What does the eba say in regards to wages etc for these guys? Are they just the new generation sec officers. What about endorsements still conducted overseas or have jetstar got somewhere a bit closer to home. Does anyone have any info re the new planning exercise they have you do for the J* process. Cheers.

Cosidering how much money pilots spend in gaining their skills/qualifications plus the cost of the JQ A330 endorsement, the money on offer for Cruise F/Os (ie Second Officers renamed) is a joke. Almost every other profession pays more. :yuk:

Going Boeing....

Without trying to start another pi##*@$
contest regarding cost of endorsements etc....Have you ever looked at the cost of setting up a small business such as a franchise.Even the cheapest would not be less than 250 K and that is a real cheapy.

You can easily throw away more than a mill and still have to pay a motsa in other charges.The amount of money that my brother has spent (borrowed)makes an endorsement look like petty cash.

Then after you have borrowed more than you would have ever thought possible along comes someone else and halves your turnover or worse.
We all realise that the race to the bottom is gaining momentum however I think you will find that there are no guarantees in any other career either.

The part that get's me going is the amount of absolute greed that pervades the corporate world.

If only I had gone into politics...now there's a cash cow :E

Jetstar Int'l
 

Gents,

The Jetstar Int'l EBA that our friends at JQ were conned into voting up (by their own pilot council) provides for the following:

Wide Body Captain: $147,809
First Officer: $88,685 (60% of the captain rate)
Junior First Officer: $75,382 (85% of the FO rate)
Cruise only First Officer: $53,211 (60% of the FO rate)

Having spent significant time in GA, I know these numbers still seem like a lot. But I can assure u, that crews from just about every other semi-reputable airline in the world is laughing at anyone who would agree to work under these conditions (especially given the current global shortage of qualified jet pilots)....

"I'll just work there long enough to get a job o/s." I hear you say. That's fine but in the meantime, by condoning what the QF board are propogating you have contributed to the demise of the our profession in our country for all those who may wish to follow.

Think about what will be left when you are 45-50 and want to return to Oz to finish off your career at home...

Let the race to the bottom continue!
P2T2

What a joke. I make more as an FO on a corporate jet. And it's not a private operation. First year pay is the same across the board. PIC's start on just under 200. An absolute disgrace. :ugh:

But wait, there's more!!
 

oh - I forgot 2 mention...

For the privilege of being paid so you get to pay for your own endorsement as a bonus!!!

Anyone looking at applying should obtain a copy of their EBA and have a GOOD read b4 u sign on the dotted line. It actually makes for quiet a funny read!!!

onya.....ditto on the comments.....make more than that flying the A-321:*

P2T2

Mate.... I thought the race to the bottom began with your mates at AO.

CL,

Let's compare apples with apples shall we..

FO's at AO make significantly more than a Jetstar Int'l Capt'!!! Not to mention they don't pay for endorsements etc etc

Additionally, when QF "offered" AO domestic bases (on AO conditions) in an attempt to undercut the mainline QF 767 operation, AO pilots displayed the integrity to tell QF where they could stick their EBA. Which is exactly what the Jetstar guys should have done when that joke of an EBA was presented to them.

Instead, they sore the opportunity for their own growth (whilst prostituting themselves relative to the rest of the industry) at the expense of those currently doing the flying on industry standard T&C's!!

I personally don't hold Jetstar pilots responsible as they're just doing what's best for their themselves / their families. The blame lies with the corruption within the JPC!! How the JPC leadership lied to their own pilots about this ficticious abundance of A330 crews standing by to do the flying should the Jetstar guys vote down the EBA is something that is unforgiveable!!! This is what happens when the leaders of employees are actually puppets of the company. As we all know the undeniable bluff actually worked...

Unfortunately as far as I see it, there's not much that can be said / done now (suggestions???). I'm just saddened to see the demise of the T&C of this profession relative to earlier generations.

I know most Qantas & all Cathay S/O's are paid more than this.

Oh, endorsements come free with these airlines as well.

CP_Adi
 

CP_Adi

Are u kidding?? U r geeing me up, surely!!!

$53K to do the job of an SO?? Let's have a look shall we at industry standard for SO's / Cruise FO's. But before that, let's have a look at the position of an SO to begin with!!!

A 2nd officer / Cruise only FO is a position invented by airlines (not recognised by CASA etc) purely so they can screw pilots out of not paying them full FO wages.

There's only a handfull of airlines on the planet who have managed to get this one through (CX, QF, others??). The majority of airlines have 2 roles, Capt and FO and pay accordingly. So the fact that QF, CX manage a 3rd role is a cost saving in itself.

This is something we've all grown used to as this little swifty was pulled b4 our time. So what have Jetstar done, divided it again by inventing a 4th division!!!

And you think that $53K, after paying for your endorsement and being subjected to the Jetstar Int'l rostering is ok???

This has to be a gee up...

When I was working 7 years ago Grade 1 IFR training in twins I was making around 43 or 44k by memory, dont know what it is now but 53k is an absolute joke! No overnight allowances? So youll be using your own money to go out and have some beers, with the left overs I think you'd hardly survive. GA guys can make more than this job, Now thats a joke!! One day Jetstar could be a stepping stone to GA haha!

P2T2

Staright question - did AO crews accept positions on worst T&C than QF mainline? What integrity are you talking about?

Where do you gather you info to state that Cruise FOs don't get allowances or any implication that you have to take RDOs away base?. I would suggest that you re-read the EBA if you are claiming to be an expert.

From the EBA:

25.4.1 If you are at a layover port, or assigned temporary duty away from home base, you will be rostered for days free of duty as required. We will use our best endeavours to ensure that such days will not detract from your basic entitlement to days off at your home base, except with your consent or at your request. You will be rostered for any days off accumulated under this provision upon return to your home base or where this is not possible, in the next roster period.

As such they cannot roster your basic entitlement for days off (9 days in a 30 day month or 10 days in a 31 day month) away base unless you agree to it and even then if you do agree to it then these days will be added to your basic entitlement for the next month.

A Dash8 Qlink (Sunstate) 1st year FO gets about $50,150 base but with allowances and the odd call-in / duty extension it would go closer to $60K. Plus you get to take off and land every other leg!

Hmmmm.:suspect:

The T&C of AO are NOT worse than QF. They are different. The cost savings come from increased rostering efficiencies and not a lower salary.

AO pilots are employed on a different type of operation and the T&C have been adjusted accordingly. The conditions (not the $'s) associated with the QF LH agreement would not permit an operation like AO to exist.

To compare what is occuring at AO to Jetstar is irrelevant as an AO FO's remuneration is approximately double that of Jetstar.

As I've stated earlier, I have no gripe with Jetstar pilots themselves. I'm purely making the point that the EBA under which they are employed is WELL below industry standard!!

Unfortunatetly those that defend it (without too much of a generalisation) are those who for whatever reason couldn't gain employment with an "industry standard" airline. However, just because you may find yourself working for a LCC doesn't mean you should accept this shafting. Stand up and demand a fair go!

Different???? Read lower!
Are AO 767 captains paid as much as mainline 767 Captains?
The obvious answer is no. Why then would anyone apply for this?
Because 767 FOs saw the opportunity to get a command upgrade and so were happy to take the pay cut (on a CP wage). To compare this with what is happening at Jetstar is not irrelevant – the pay difference is. Good on them if a 767 FO at AO earns more than a CP at JQ. It however is the same slide that you all keep blaming JQ with. It continues to amaze me the hypocritical attitude that writes this off as “different” and not the same as what has happened with the Jetstar crews.

Mate..... I am only here to attempt to correct the fallacies that you continue to expound.
Cruise FOs don’t get allowances – wrong.
Cruise FOs have to take days off away base – wrong.
At least get your facts straight.

We are obviously arguing about different topics.


The fact that AO exists and that its pilots are employed under a different EBA than the company from which they came is not the topic of debate. AO T&C are still in line with industry standard!!! Jetstar however is not.

The T&C agreed upon by the Jetstar pilot group are below par, plain and simple. Anyone who thinks otherwise or tries to defend the abismal T&C are doing themselves (and everyone else in the industry) a diservice. Now that JQ Int'l EBA is in place the airlines growth will be exponential. This is at the expense of the opportunity to do the same flying under fair T&C that have been negotiated over the last 80 odd years.

Who started the trend is irrelevant. What is going to be done to buck this trend is something we all need to work together to achieve.

This infighting amongst the pilot groups is exactly what industrial relations managers work to achieve. Unfortunatetly given that an EBA has been signed and pilots are now working under these dodgy conditions, means that we all have our work cut out for us if we are ever going to achieve what is industry standard.

I agree.
The best outcome for all would be to stop this infantile pointing of fingers and make better moves for unification.
BTW what is industry standard???

What I define as standard is the average of what other airlines pay their crew to do the same job.

Not 2 hard 2 find. Look at any crewing company and see what they pay their employees for doing the same job (we all do it).


Or simply google search "airline pilot pay scales" etc. The pay associated with almost any airline can be found online.

Try this one for starters: http://www.willflyforfood.cc/airlinepilotpay/

Believe me, u guys r being robbed!!! And the fact that you defend these T&C is what concerns the rest of us as it's sets an artificial benchmark for our own negotiations...

Sorry but the answer is yes, they are paid the same as junior blank line Captains in mainline!

Conditions are different and that is where the saving is!

The agreement to crew AO is a successful way for mainline pilots to be flexible, exactly what the company wanted. If you are a mainline pilot and you don't want to go to AO then you don't have to. However the operation as I said is a form of productivity for the whole mainline pilot group! Do your time and then head back and enjoy mainline.

You question integrity, get your facts right to back up the argument!

Quote:
Wide Body Captain: $147,809
I know most Qantas & all Cathay S/O's are paid more than this.

Oh, endorsements come free with these airlines as well.




I would doubt it. You would have to be a hard working -400 so to achieve this and would probably include allowances...

P2T2
You said this – “crews from just about every other semi-reputable airline in the world is laughing at anyone who would agree to work under these conditions.”
You quoted Jetstar FO salary thus - $88,685.
I know of a junior widebody FO employed by Air Canada who is paid less than this. I know a bloke working for SQ Cargo as an FO who is paid less than this. I know people working in MI,TG,MH and GA and none of them are paid as well as the numbers you quote from Jetstar, let alone Qantas.
Are these reputable or semi reputable airlines?
Onya said – “I make more as an FO on a corporate jet.”
Wow, where are you based. Who are you working for? I have flown LHS on various corporate aircraft (GIV/F2000) for reputable companies in high paying countries but I have never been paid as well as you.

Virgindriver:

True, a 1st year QF SO would struggle to do JQ Int'l command wages.

But for the purposes of informing an industry in a country that has seemingly been brain washed by their own management, believe me QF is not the only airline who's SO's would be doing better than JQ command wages. Not bragging, just informing.

JQ have sold themselves short!!! and anyone that thinks otherwise is ill informed. Unfortunately this has now set the bench mark for QF and VB when they negotiate future EBA's.

By the way, good on the VB drivers for having the spine 2 stand up 4 what the believe to be fair T&C. Good luck with it all!!!!

The Professor:

Having worked in the contract world and having many friends who are still employed their, don't be fooled into thinking that $88K AUD for an A330 with Oz tax is fair pay. There was never a "crewing company" on standby to crew JQ Int'l in the event that the lads voted down the EBA. That was corruption at it's best!!!

Once again check: http://www.willflyforfood.cc/airlinepilotpay/ and/or any recruitment agency site that shows pay rates. It's all there.

It's up to all of us to bring Av'n in Oz back in line with international standards. For too long we have let our own airlines bluff us into thinking that SARS, 9/11, LCC's, Fuel Costs etc are an excuse for us to except pay freezes and/or crap EBA's.

Don't ask me how (I'm not that smart), but hopefully someone will figure it out...

I can't imagine too many RAAF/Navy/Army blokes taking up this offer. $30,000 odd to pay for an an endorsement to then earn $50,000 - that would be about a 50% pay cut.

If I was a QF cadet I would be very worried right now as they may find themselves being siphoned off in this direction similar to Jetstar Asia.
Imagine, paying $100 000 for your training, $40 000 for the A330 endo to then get paid $50 000 odd a year.

P2T2

There is no such thing as fair when it comes to market forces determining the salary levels of those rendering services. The market decides.

You said – “Having worked in the contract world and having many friends who are still employed their, don't be fooled into thinking that $88K AUD for an A330 with Oz tax is fair pay.”

You are not making a rational comparison. Contract companies generally pay higher salaries to attract employees, the obvious downside being that the employee understands that the position is finite and nearly always in a location where a premium must be offered. Air Vietnam/Korean etc don’t pay the money they do because they are career positions. Full time positions at home in your own country are where most people work and will accept lower pay as a result.

The website you offered actually undermines your argument. None of the newer or upstart carriers on the list pay as well as Jetstar do, taking into account tax and cost of living. Even at Northwest, an FO would need 3 years seniority on the A330 to achieve first year salary at Jetstar.

G'day Professor,

I understand your point regarding contractual employment. There is a LOT to be said for living / working in your own country. However a happy medium would be nice.

Considering remuneration for FO's on contracts jobs is usually in the ball park of $8-$10 K / month USD tax free and includes accom' etc, this is a LONG way from $88K AUD pa, living in Oz with our tax system.

Regarding Northwest; they're not the best example to compare with ie Chp 11 protection etc.

Anyway, I'm done arguing. Hopefully I've made my point.

Cheers

Errr, nope. No points made. You did however manage to show how out of touch you are with the industry.

Any comparison to the US industry (where I now work) is doomed to fail. I have never worked in oz but I have a lot of buddies that do/have and I have to say - even Jetstar salary levels are better than the way the US is heading.

I just left a job in Asia and it sounds like fellahs like P2T2 are just kidding around with FO pay at 10 US per month tax free.

Try about half of that or less.

Quote:
Wide Body Captain: $147,809
I know most Qantas & all Cathay S/O's are paid more than this.

Are you sure about this? The following is from the Pilot Career Information Booklet on the Qantas website:

Pay for Qantas Pilots

We are often asked – How much does a Qantas pilot earn? The following is a guide on the average yearly salary depending on fleet type.

•

•

•

DTH,

At no stage did I make a comparison to the industry within the US (different market forces are in play there). Most contracts just pay in USD (I assume that's where u became confused).

However since you mentioned it, there are contracts with US basings paying the $'s I was referring to:

http://www.hawaiiaviation.com/positi..._ncab747fo.htm

[urlhttp://www.crewresourcesworldwide.com/positions_contractsummary_ANA_JP_Express_B767_FO.htm[/url]


Additionally, by having a look at a few recruiting agencies (below) and making a few enquiries, it's easy to conclude that although there is a conceded pay cut for working in Oz, the JQ EBA is still a joke.

http://www.rishworth.co.nz/opportuni...list.asp?cat=1
http://www.directpersonnel.com/
http://www.contractair.net/public/index.html
http://www.davikflighttraining.com/vacancies.htm
http://www.bettsrecruitmentltd.co.uk/vacancies.htm
http://www.stormaviation.com/index.php
http://www.parcaviation.aero/aviatio...htcrewJobs.asp
http://www.pas-aviation.aero/library...m_welcome.html
http://www.sigmaraviation.com/
http://www.iacglobal.com/vac.htm
http://www.world-airline-services.com/

The points I make are:

1. The JQ pilot body was conned into signing off on a dodgy EBA for their Int'l operation (by their own pilot council)

2. These artificially low conditions have now become an adverse benchmark / bargaining tool used by airline industrial negotiatiotors for other airlines in the region.

Anyone disagree??

Someone said to me the other day that J* conditions had put the aviation industry back by a decade WRT terms and conditions for crew. That's about right because I became a QF F/O in '97 and earn't about $88K that year....and that was year three F/O pay. :E

I would disagree with the 2 points made by P2T2.
The J* pilots were not conned by their Pilot Council at all. They were told quite simply that the deal on offer was the best deal they had been able to negotiate. The JPC had sought better T&Cs but were unable to reach agreement with the Company. The Company put the EBA amendment to a vote of the pilots and the pilots voted it up. The JPC made no threats regarding an external crewing company. In fact the JPC (at that time) would have been happier to see the pilots reject the EBA amendment. The Company implied that a NO vote would see a greenfields international operation. Not the JPC. The pssibility of external crewing may have been the private opinion of individual members but the JPC did not put that up as a unified council position to the troups.
As to why the pilots themselves would vote it up. Many in the company at that time had lost jobs and careers when AN collapsed and had been dispersed throughout the world. They had come to J* on short term commands and prospects. Here was an opportunity to shore up their commands. Some already in J* (from Impulse days) saw an opportunity to fly larger aircraft on international operations. Something they would not otherwise have done. Just because a pilot does not get thru the selection process for QF does not mean he/she cannot fly, or do the job. They do however, get sick of being told they are not good enough and then expected to forego what they can get, in order to shore up the position of the very people jibing them for "not being good enough" whatever that means.
The J* pilots were not conned. They chose to vote up the EBA amendment.
Regarding point 2. It may be valid to a cerain extent however VB have been around longer than J* and had an EBA before the Impulse people did. NJS have been around even longer with AWAs. Both of these set the standard benchmark before J*. Benchmarks of this nature do depend on supply and demand. There is no such thing as Industry Standard. That is easlly demonstrated by the large variations in T&Cs around the Asia Pacific region.
What dollar value does one put on living and working in Australia. I know some people who say $100,000.00 a year. Add that to the J* salary and it is not so shabby.
The AO argument falls flat in my view. It may be different to QF but still overall it is inferior. So before anybody puts down the J* people, in my opinion, No Qantas pilot should have taken a position with AO. Otherwise you are simply arguing degrees.
Also in my opinion, very few of the current QF pilots, VB pilots, and J* pilots for that matter have actually fought for terms and conditions. Understandably that is a thing of the past. I sincerely doubt that if the positions had been reversed, that the outcome would have been any different.
The whole bleating from the QF pilots reminds me of the CX employment ban of a few years ago. While actively discouraging hopeful wannabies they were accepting promotions within created by the same vacancies they were banning over.
While not QF pilot bashing it does seem to me that group is the most vocal. This is understandable as they have the most to lose. I wonder if they had not splintered the pilot voice in this country many years ago would things be different now.

TurbTool,

Thanks for your response. Even though we obviously differ on our view points, I do respect your opinion.

For those who've read my earlier posts on this thread, you will see I've had a fair spray. Perhaps I've let my frustrations get the better of me (should've hit the bottle instead).

What I've written is in no way meant to be a personal attack on JQ pilots themselves. If what I've said has come across that way, I sincerely apologise as this was not my intent. We are all in this stinkfest together and should work together collectively to improve ALL of our conditions.

Cheers

Does anyone know of the link to view the EBA online? I think all of us considering interviews should read it carefully before we make a decision,

Cheers all,

P & H

Maybe we can all move to what happens to low paid staff in the US. Their pay is substituted by tips...Maybe the CSM can stand at the door with a tip Jar and we can also value add to the process by using all that space up the aerobridge where the rest of the cabin crew can busk. The flight crew will not be involved in this process as they will have already provided the entertainment after having only spent min time in the sim for the endorsement....hence landing practice reqd.

EBA online
 

The agreement is HERE.
This has subquently been ammended to include "widebody" operations. Unfortunately I cannot put my finger on this ammendment at the momement.
Think very very carefully about what you are signing up for.
There are lots of opportunites elsewhere that to give you a far greater return on your training investment.
Further "cruise FO" time will be regarded just the same as SO time, which is not really worth a pinch of sh#t in the contract world. You effectively will be locked in at your current hour experience level until you get sufficient "hand on stick" time as a full FO.

I wonder if they had not splintered the pilot voice in this country many years ago would things be different now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
THAT says it all!!

Bullsh**. I was a QF 747-400 S/O for over 5 very recent years and never grossed that much. Including all allowances, overtime, etc. And 747-400 S/Os are on the top S/O pay scale in QF (and in fact are paid more than some F/Os from other types such as the B767!).

Crikey I'll even email you a copy of my final S/O group certificate (which shows allowances, etc) if you want!