787 captain,

With allowances, and lots of overtime (LAs galore) its possible for a 400 SO to gross almost 140K.

53K as a cruise FO? If this is as silly as it sounds, surely they'll have trouble recruiting.

For last year the highest S/O gross pay was up towards 160k (all up) while the lowest was about 70k. Big variance depending on Fleet type/ rotation/seniority/ lifestyle choices.

Even 70K is better than an A330 Cruise F/O figure. I hope their are plenty of add ons and allowances to bring the total up. Paying off a loan for an endo while living in Sydney can put big restrictions on your social life.:uhoh:

touchn.....787 Captain
 

ahahahahahaha, who earnt 70K??????? Wouldn't be mainline.....not even A330 surely.

787, 70-100 is pretty wrong. Most of my friends and I (-400) ie. same seniority, earnt around 118-120K 1st year and above that for the years after. It is dependant though on blank lines and aircraft type. The -400 will generally be busy on a Blank line therefore you end up earning more than you would on a pattern.

Its all about the facts, plenty of bullsh!t on here...

hey guys and gals, try this on for size

Cruise FO is a bit of a wrought

Where can I be in 6 years if I had decided not to join Jetstar and maintained my current employment vs taking the job. Eveyone here agrees that you will be earning more as an FO with J* then most regionals. QF hasn't recruited in years and when they finally so it will still be 8+ years + for an SO to become and FO.
Now say your in a regional you 6 year earning potential will be close to this:
1) FO for 6 years, with high seniority and the possibility of a command in a couple of years, $360 000 or
2) FO for 3 year min with 3 years Captain $450 000K
3) A couple of years in a regional then to an oversea airline with no Tax as an FO $560 000.
compared to J* FO including endorement cost
5 years FO, 1 years Captain: ($440 000 + $150 000) - $40000 (endorement with interest) = $550 000...
And you wouldn't join why? Short term it just make plan sense for people barely scarping $280 000 over the same period. Besides beats paying 10k with skippers for casual work.

Rumour doing the rounds is that QF will start employing in the second half of the year and require 200 pilots. I understand that some of those who are on the hold file have been offered Jet* positions. For those who want to join mainline then it may be worth holding off a bit because if you accept Jet* there is no way that they will let you transfer later on.

Cruise FO at $A88K.
I do earn more than that as an FO on a business jet in Europe, plus I get allowances and the endorsement's paid for by the company.

At Dragonair we don't do any longhaul flying, so cadets (one stripe Second Officers who are HKG residents trained from scratch at KA expense) are dumped straight into the RH seat of A330's with a grand total of around 250 hours total aeronautical experience. For this they receive the princely sum of of HKD22,000/month (about HKD6=AUD1) +medical+annual 13th month bonus, rising to about HKD57,000/month over 4 years (when they are effectively First Officers).
Line Captains operate as untrained and unpaid Training Captains (although a token 30 minutes of once only sim time is dedicated to landing upset recovery).

Quote:
"ahahahahahaha, who earnt 70K??????? Wouldn't be mainline.....not even A330 surely.

787, 70-100 is pretty wrong. Most of my friends and I (-400) ie. same seniority, earnt around 118-120K 1st year and above that for the years after. It is dependant though on blank lines and aircraft type. The -400 will generally be busy on a Blank line therefore you end up earning more than you would on a pattern.

Its all about the facts, plenty of bullsh!t on here..."


Ok, my bad. I thought that given that the info came from Qantas it would be fairly accurate, apparently not so. At least I know now. :ok:

787

787 guy...
 

No, you're not all wrong. I suspect it's more a case of apples & oranges comparison. The QF website pay you quote is close for projected 'base' pay and covers the variation due to aircraft type (767 vs 744), but perhaps doesn't include things like;
- overtime for lengthy tours of duty prevalent on the -400, and
- meal allowances etc, which for a busy year can amount to A$15K or more (ie lots of time away on duty in expensive places).
Hence some folks here are quoting and apparently gloating over gross income without taking subsistence costs out, some are gleefully proud of the small numbers but not mentioning the loadings.
Everyone has an angle...:hmm:

I would say the most junior So's on the Classic who have been rotating between Blank and Reserve lines for the last 18 months would be very close to the $70000 mark.

How in the hell can you count a meal allowance in your wage , dont you eat when you are away

What next. Jetstar International S/O's at 60% the cruise F/O rate?

Quite appropriate me thinks, providing a title cruise F/O at Jetstar.

Joe public will be spoon fed the line "Jetstar First Ofiicers are paid $53,211 on initial appontment whereas Qantas First Officers are paid $200,00 plus. Qantas will therefore be seeking convergence to the more reasonable Jetstar First Officer pay rates."

Spin Spin Spin. :8

If Qantas longhaul crew spent all of their meal allowances on food - after all, that's what they are for - they'd be the some of the most obese people in the world. If you saw what they collect,in addition to a daily travel allowance, you too would be banking a lot.

I think it is appropriate to compare the entire salary-including all the components.
Interested to see how a 'cruise F/O' pay adds up with all the inclusions.:confused:

Someone needs to remind Jetstar that EK is in town looking for drivers, QF is reported as saying they are looking for 296 pilots over the next 3 years.

They'll have problems retaining crew, let alone filling the cruise seat warming positions. :8

BTW - Why were Jetstar International operating 3 Captain crew last week? Training or crew shortage or both?

The MNL allowance is around AUD85 per day but the AUD equivalent is meaningless, totally meaningless. The allowances are based on the local currency price of meals that are available in the crew hotel and are based on a specific formula. What's more, they do not consider any discounts the hotel may offer crew. The 'drinks' the allowances are meant to cover are tea and coffee with your meals. Other drinks during the day such as water and a mid-morning or mid-afternoon coffee are charged to your ODTA. Do you drink JW Blue label?

The less crew speak and belly-ache openly about these allowances the better as most would see them as pretty bloody generous. Maybe you would prefer to go onto 'actuals' as do many staff on duty travel/Company business and only get their money back upon production of a receipt for meals actually consumed?

ROLFMAO @ BA Lert. Reasonable actuals are a threat that gets trotted out every now and then. They won't ever occur for crew for at least two reasons.

1. Administrative overheads to administer. Imagine the numbers of personnel required to keep track of 7000 plus crew.
2. That they are open to considerable rorting. I know of a bunch of examples. I won't provide details on this forum.

You are right about crew going on and on about them. Most people outside the industry don't understand the concept.

G'day Keg! Totally agree with your two points but crew would certainly know how well off they are now if they henceforth had to adopt an "actuals" regime.

As for your comment "Most people outside the industry don't understand the concept", might one suggest that you amend it to read "Most people don't understand the concept, including staff."? Those on unaccountable per diems just don't know how fortunate they are, and pity help them if they have to go to the ATO standards; these rates vary according to annual salary which means the the better one is paid, the better can eat. What a load of cr@p?

Allowances are where Qantas can save heaps so I can only repeat that crew really ought to shut up about them before the goose that laid the golden egg is killed or (no pun) laid off! If in any doubt as to the accuracy of this statement, have a look around and see what other companies crew are paid for their allowances.:ok:

Lert, we are 'accountable' from the tax perspective. Anything above the applicable ATO SES/SEC rates see us taxed at marginal rates. I agree it's a joke about earning more means you're entitled to eat more. Surreal in fact.

If the allowance does not cover meal costs at the crew hotel, perhaps you could eat outside the hotel. Now I'm sure the company recommends that you only eat at the hotel, so if you get sick turn it back on the company. If this then gives the company a crewing issue, so be it. It is their fault for not paying enough in allowances to eat at the place they recommend.

Alot of people on these forums are thinking this way. I can tell you with a great deal of confidence thats is a very incorrect figure. Provided there aren't anymore significant setbacks, you can halve that figure.

P2T2, you have sprayed a lot of sh88 here, and whilst it makes interesting reading, can someone please explain the following:

Given that according to the learned comments on this forum, we are in the grip of a world wide pilot shortage, and given that apparently, every other airline in the world is paying so much better;

Why is it that from all accounts (friends I have in J*) very few JQ pilots have left for these greener pastures?

Additionally, as far as I am aware, everyone gets paid overnight allowances and having seen several JQ domestic captain group certificates average salary appears to be around AUD155K (including O/T and not O/N allow.) which would, all things being equal equate to approx. $172K 'ish for a JQI captain.

Still have not come across one guy who has his days off upline either.

Will have to wait unitl end of 06-07 financial year to assess JQI group certificaes, but this seems to be the way it is panning out.

"The MNL allowance is about 2000 pesos per day which on today's exchange rate, 38.6 PhP to the AuD, is $53 AuD."

"Last time I was there, year or so now, this was not enough to eat in the hotel. Basic breakfast was 15, lunch about 25 and dinner about 35 so no go."

The irony being that your daily expenses, which apparently are not acceptable to you, constitute the monthly income of most people living in the Philippines.

Such is life.

podbreak - there are a stack of guys who are well and truly more than half way to the 8 year mark, with absolutely no sign of an FO slot in sight. As an example, the last 767 FO slots (all 3 of them for the whole training year!) went to guys who are around the high 1600's in seniority - meaning they joined in 2000.

However, as a means to ease the pain whilst waiting for an FO slot, earning solid $$$ as a S/O goes a long way I guess... while it lasts :eek:

JU, I'm aware that the current status of limited movement has resulted in this, but I was referring to future employees. I take it that is what the poster had in mind. With the new aircraft on the way, there is likely to be substantial movement, similar to that seen 99-01. People are free to deny this until they are red in the face, but if I were a young SO right now or a future employee, I wouldn't be too concerned.

Johnny

You sure those blokes you are referring to aren't cadets. There are FO's on the 767 who joined a long time after 2000, however they joined with several thousand total mostly command.

Poddy I would be worried about being on a different contract to the current CA. A real possibility for any future new hires. :confused:

To clarify - the 767 slots I mentioned are only the very latest ones, however the last several years have been of similar seniority. You would have to go back to late 2002 to find guys who managed to get the last of the 'early' promotions onto the 767 - roughly 12 months as an S/O before becoming an F/O on the 767.

As for a ground swell of promotion as new aircraft are delivered - I'll believe it when I see it. Don't get me wrong - I will be happy should it eventuate, but I certainly won't be holding my breath...

Neville,

Is there something I am missing in the certified agreement which allows guys with decent experience to circumvent the seniority system? Perhaps a poorly advertised Direct Entry FO Scheme? Not sure if you are making a point re : opportunity, motivation or neither...

VI

Maybe Nev was talking about the requirement for 3000 hrs (I think?) before a QF driver, from the cadet program, can move into a window seat ;)

Someone with a little more knowledge of the requirements can enlighten us all

Wonder what the Crz F/o requirements will be?:confused:

Poto,

Thanks - that seems to ring a bell but I haven't got the books at the moment so can't confirm.

Cheers!

Not to start a thread drift, but just a question out of curiosity more than anything, does anyone know what the ruling is in regards to cadets being "promoted" to Jetstar as F/O's should they desire after being S/O's? I know the whole thing about having to resign from big brother and all but given cadets dont have all that much command time would Jetstar accept them as F/O's as QF do in time? I assume it's possible but of course not sure why you would be that keen anyhow....

QF Cadet to Jetstar F/O
 

When the Jetstar F/O vacancies were advertised by FSO I recall thinking the command experience requirements were well in excess of what any cadet would have unless they did quite a lot of private flying.

I am not familiar with the specifics of the Industry Placement Programme but I don't think there is any command time in that for cadets.

I was a 767 F/O for 5 yrs, and in the latest training allocations I would have been about 1 yr too junior for a 767 F/O slot . . . . :bored:

. . . . unreal.

Correct, there were current QF A330 F/O's who didn't meet the requirements for a J* F/O.

There were current QF Captains who didn't meet the requirements for J* Captain, despite having a command at QF for a decade or so. Even many A330 QF check and training Captains did not meet the requirements.

The requirements were a complete joke and designed to ensure no QF (well except maybe ex AN 320) would meet them.

I think with the current state of affairs at QF a promotion is best found in the desert. While the goons fiddle with our careers we best make our services more usefull elsewhere. See you guys and gals at the EK road show.

Podbreak,

Genuine question - how do you figure on all this promotion?

A380's and A330's coming but Classics and 767's going.

738's coming but 734's going.

Replacement aircraft means a lot of training but this is not the same as promotion, CM seems to be very careful when he talks about this, he always talks about the massive 'training' coming up not 'promotion'.

Extra aircraft are needed for promotion and whilst there will be some extra aircraft, hardly large enough to completley reverse the current timelines.

True Speeedy, that is also assuming that mainline guys will be flying the new equipment. Geoff has guys paying for their own endorsements on 330s and no doubt 787s when they come, he has a wet lease crewing company in the form of AO, who are already undercutting mainline on mainline routes, who do you think he would prefer fly the new equipment?

Remember he said "The new equipment will go where it is best utilised and most profitable?" Do you honestly think that will be mainline?

What will happen when JQ get the 787?

Who pays for the endorsement?

Is it covered in their current agreement?

Guess what?
The International variation to the JetStar Collective Agreement the JetStar pilots voted for, was for a "widebody variation".
That means they could quite conceivably end up flying the A380 for peanuts as well as the B787!
HEBES SUM ET SUFFRAGIA FERO!