cruise/junior first officer 4 J*
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cruise/junior first officer 4 J*
has anyone heard much about the proposed introduction of cruise fo’s for the jetstar asia routes on the 330? What does the eba say in regards to wages etc for these guys? Are they just the new generation sec officers. What about endorsements still conducted overseas or have jetstar got somewhere a bit closer to home. Does anyone have any info re the new planning exercise they have you do for the J* process. Cheers.
Cosidering how much money pilots spend in gaining their skills/qualifications plus the cost of the JQ A330 endorsement, the money on offer for Cruise F/Os (ie Second Officers renamed) is a joke. Almost every other profession pays more. 
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Going Boeing....
Without trying to start another pi##*@$
contest regarding cost of endorsements etc....Have you ever looked at the cost of setting up a small business such as a franchise.Even the cheapest would not be less than 250 K and that is a real cheapy.
You can easily throw away more than a mill and still have to pay a motsa in other charges.The amount of money that my brother has spent (borrowed)makes an endorsement look like petty cash.
Then after you have borrowed more than you would have ever thought possible along comes someone else and halves your turnover or worse.
We all realise that the race to the bottom is gaining momentum however I think you will find that there are no guarantees in any other career either.
The part that get's me going is the amount of absolute greed that pervades the corporate world.
If only I had gone into politics...now there's a cash cow
Without trying to start another pi##*@$
contest regarding cost of endorsements etc....Have you ever looked at the cost of setting up a small business such as a franchise.Even the cheapest would not be less than 250 K and that is a real cheapy.
You can easily throw away more than a mill and still have to pay a motsa in other charges.The amount of money that my brother has spent (borrowed)makes an endorsement look like petty cash.
Then after you have borrowed more than you would have ever thought possible along comes someone else and halves your turnover or worse.
We all realise that the race to the bottom is gaining momentum however I think you will find that there are no guarantees in any other career either.
The part that get's me going is the amount of absolute greed that pervades the corporate world.
If only I had gone into politics...now there's a cash cow
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Jetstar Int'l
Gents,
The Jetstar Int'l EBA that our friends at JQ were conned into voting up (by their own pilot council) provides for the following:
Wide Body Captain: $147,809
First Officer: $88,685 (60% of the captain rate)
Junior First Officer: $75,382 (85% of the FO rate)
Cruise only First Officer: $53,211 (60% of the FO rate)
Having spent significant time in GA, I know these numbers still seem like a lot. But I can assure u, that crews from just about every other semi-reputable airline in the world is laughing at anyone who would agree to work under these conditions (especially given the current global shortage of qualified jet pilots)....
"I'll just work there long enough to get a job o/s." I hear you say. That's fine but in the meantime, by condoning what the QF board are propogating you have contributed to the demise of the our profession in our country for all those who may wish to follow.
Think about what will be left when you are 45-50 and want to return to Oz to finish off your career at home...
Let the race to the bottom continue!
P2T2
The Jetstar Int'l EBA that our friends at JQ were conned into voting up (by their own pilot council) provides for the following:
Wide Body Captain: $147,809
First Officer: $88,685 (60% of the captain rate)
Junior First Officer: $75,382 (85% of the FO rate)
Cruise only First Officer: $53,211 (60% of the FO rate)
Having spent significant time in GA, I know these numbers still seem like a lot. But I can assure u, that crews from just about every other semi-reputable airline in the world is laughing at anyone who would agree to work under these conditions (especially given the current global shortage of qualified jet pilots)....
"I'll just work there long enough to get a job o/s." I hear you say. That's fine but in the meantime, by condoning what the QF board are propogating you have contributed to the demise of the our profession in our country for all those who may wish to follow.
Think about what will be left when you are 45-50 and want to return to Oz to finish off your career at home...
Let the race to the bottom continue!
P2T2
Last edited by P2T2; 1st Mar 2007 at 12:47.
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Wide Body Captain: $147,809
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But wait, there's more!!
oh - I forgot 2 mention...
For the privilege of being paid so you get to pay for your own endorsement as a bonus!!!
Anyone looking at applying should obtain a copy of their EBA and have a GOOD read b4 u sign on the dotted line. It actually makes for quiet a funny read!!!
For the privilege of being paid so you get to pay for your own endorsement as a bonus!!!
Anyone looking at applying should obtain a copy of their EBA and have a GOOD read b4 u sign on the dotted line. It actually makes for quiet a funny read!!!
Last edited by P2T2; 1st Mar 2007 at 13:19.
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CL,
Let's compare apples with apples shall we..
FO's at AO make significantly more than a Jetstar Int'l Capt'!!! Not to mention they don't pay for endorsements etc etc
Additionally, when QF "offered" AO domestic bases (on AO conditions) in an attempt to undercut the mainline QF 767 operation, AO pilots displayed the integrity to tell QF where they could stick their EBA. Which is exactly what the Jetstar guys should have done when that joke of an EBA was presented to them.
Instead, they sore the opportunity for their own growth (whilst prostituting themselves relative to the rest of the industry) at the expense of those currently doing the flying on industry standard T&C's!!
I personally don't hold Jetstar pilots responsible as they're just doing what's best for their themselves / their families. The blame lies with the corruption within the JPC!! How the JPC leadership lied to their own pilots about this ficticious abundance of A330 crews standing by to do the flying should the Jetstar guys vote down the EBA is something that is unforgiveable!!! This is what happens when the leaders of employees are actually puppets of the company. As we all know the undeniable bluff actually worked...
Unfortunately as far as I see it, there's not much that can be said / done now (suggestions???). I'm just saddened to see the demise of the T&C of this profession relative to earlier generations.
Let's compare apples with apples shall we..
FO's at AO make significantly more than a Jetstar Int'l Capt'!!! Not to mention they don't pay for endorsements etc etc
Additionally, when QF "offered" AO domestic bases (on AO conditions) in an attempt to undercut the mainline QF 767 operation, AO pilots displayed the integrity to tell QF where they could stick their EBA. Which is exactly what the Jetstar guys should have done when that joke of an EBA was presented to them.
Instead, they sore the opportunity for their own growth (whilst prostituting themselves relative to the rest of the industry) at the expense of those currently doing the flying on industry standard T&C's!!
I personally don't hold Jetstar pilots responsible as they're just doing what's best for their themselves / their families. The blame lies with the corruption within the JPC!! How the JPC leadership lied to their own pilots about this ficticious abundance of A330 crews standing by to do the flying should the Jetstar guys vote down the EBA is something that is unforgiveable!!! This is what happens when the leaders of employees are actually puppets of the company. As we all know the undeniable bluff actually worked...
Unfortunately as far as I see it, there's not much that can be said / done now (suggestions???). I'm just saddened to see the demise of the T&C of this profession relative to earlier generations.
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Wide Body Captain: $147,809
Oh, endorsements come free with these airlines as well.
Last edited by The Riddler; 1st Mar 2007 at 05:09.
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CP_Adi
CP_Adi
Are u kidding?? U r geeing me up, surely!!!
$53K to do the job of an SO?? Let's have a look shall we at industry standard for SO's / Cruise FO's. But before that, let's have a look at the position of an SO to begin with!!!
A 2nd officer / Cruise only FO is a position invented by airlines (not recognised by CASA etc) purely so they can screw pilots out of not paying them full FO wages.
There's only a handfull of airlines on the planet who have managed to get this one through (CX, QF, others??). The majority of airlines have 2 roles, Capt and FO and pay accordingly. So the fact that QF, CX manage a 3rd role is a cost saving in itself.
This is something we've all grown used to as this little swifty was pulled b4 our time. So what have Jetstar done, divided it again by inventing a 4th division!!!
And you think that $53K, after paying for your endorsement and being subjected to the Jetstar Int'l rostering is ok???
This has to be a gee up...
Are u kidding?? U r geeing me up, surely!!!
$53K to do the job of an SO?? Let's have a look shall we at industry standard for SO's / Cruise FO's. But before that, let's have a look at the position of an SO to begin with!!!
A 2nd officer / Cruise only FO is a position invented by airlines (not recognised by CASA etc) purely so they can screw pilots out of not paying them full FO wages.
There's only a handfull of airlines on the planet who have managed to get this one through (CX, QF, others??). The majority of airlines have 2 roles, Capt and FO and pay accordingly. So the fact that QF, CX manage a 3rd role is a cost saving in itself.
This is something we've all grown used to as this little swifty was pulled b4 our time. So what have Jetstar done, divided it again by inventing a 4th division!!!
And you think that $53K, after paying for your endorsement and being subjected to the Jetstar Int'l rostering is ok???
This has to be a gee up...
Last edited by P2T2; 1st Mar 2007 at 14:11.
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When I was working 7 years ago Grade 1 IFR training in twins I was making around 43 or 44k by memory, dont know what it is now but 53k is an absolute joke! No overnight allowances? So youll be using your own money to go out and have some beers, with the left overs I think you'd hardly survive. GA guys can make more than this job, Now thats a joke!! One day Jetstar could be a stepping stone to GA haha!
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P2T2
Staright question - did AO crews accept positions on worst T&C than QF mainline? What integrity are you talking about?
Where do you gather you info to state that Cruise FOs don't get allowances or any implication that you have to take RDOs away base?. I would suggest that you re-read the EBA if you are claiming to be an expert.
From the EBA:
25.4.1 If you are at a layover port, or assigned temporary duty away from home base, you will be rostered for days free of duty as required. We will use our best endeavours to ensure that such days will not detract from your basic entitlement to days off at your home base, except with your consent or at your request. You will be rostered for any days off accumulated under this provision upon return to your home base or where this is not possible, in the next roster period.
As such they cannot roster your basic entitlement for days off (9 days in a 30 day month or 10 days in a 31 day month) away base unless you agree to it and even then if you do agree to it then these days will be added to your basic entitlement for the next month.
Staright question - did AO crews accept positions on worst T&C than QF mainline? What integrity are you talking about?
Where do you gather you info to state that Cruise FOs don't get allowances or any implication that you have to take RDOs away base?. I would suggest that you re-read the EBA if you are claiming to be an expert.
From the EBA:
25.4.1 If you are at a layover port, or assigned temporary duty away from home base, you will be rostered for days free of duty as required. We will use our best endeavours to ensure that such days will not detract from your basic entitlement to days off at your home base, except with your consent or at your request. You will be rostered for any days off accumulated under this provision upon return to your home base or where this is not possible, in the next roster period.
As such they cannot roster your basic entitlement for days off (9 days in a 30 day month or 10 days in a 31 day month) away base unless you agree to it and even then if you do agree to it then these days will be added to your basic entitlement for the next month.
A Dash8 Qlink (Sunstate) 1st year FO gets about $50,150 base but with allowances and the odd call-in / duty extension it would go closer to $60K. Plus you get to take off and land every other leg!
Hmmmm.
Hmmmm.
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The T&C of AO are NOT worse than QF. They are different. The cost savings come from increased rostering efficiencies and not a lower salary.
AO pilots are employed on a different type of operation and the T&C have been adjusted accordingly. The conditions (not the $'s) associated with the QF LH agreement would not permit an operation like AO to exist.
To compare what is occuring at AO to Jetstar is irrelevant as an AO FO's remuneration is approximately double that of Jetstar.
As I've stated earlier, I have no gripe with Jetstar pilots themselves. I'm purely making the point that the EBA under which they are employed is WELL below industry standard!!
Unfortunatetly those that defend it (without too much of a generalisation) are those who for whatever reason couldn't gain employment with an "industry standard" airline. However, just because you may find yourself working for a LCC doesn't mean you should accept this shafting. Stand up and demand a fair go!
AO pilots are employed on a different type of operation and the T&C have been adjusted accordingly. The conditions (not the $'s) associated with the QF LH agreement would not permit an operation like AO to exist.
To compare what is occuring at AO to Jetstar is irrelevant as an AO FO's remuneration is approximately double that of Jetstar.
As I've stated earlier, I have no gripe with Jetstar pilots themselves. I'm purely making the point that the EBA under which they are employed is WELL below industry standard!!
Unfortunatetly those that defend it (without too much of a generalisation) are those who for whatever reason couldn't gain employment with an "industry standard" airline. However, just because you may find yourself working for a LCC doesn't mean you should accept this shafting. Stand up and demand a fair go!
Last edited by P2T2; 1st Mar 2007 at 13:46.
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Different???? Read lower!
Are AO 767 captains paid as much as mainline 767 Captains?
The obvious answer is no. Why then would anyone apply for this?
Because 767 FOs saw the opportunity to get a command upgrade and so were happy to take the pay cut (on a CP wage). To compare this with what is happening at Jetstar is not irrelevant – the pay difference is. Good on them if a 767 FO at AO earns more than a CP at JQ. It however is the same slide that you all keep blaming JQ with. It continues to amaze me the hypocritical attitude that writes this off as “different” and not the same as what has happened with the Jetstar crews.
Mate..... I am only here to attempt to correct the fallacies that you continue to expound.
Cruise FOs don’t get allowances – wrong.
Cruise FOs have to take days off away base – wrong.
At least get your facts straight.
Are AO 767 captains paid as much as mainline 767 Captains?
The obvious answer is no. Why then would anyone apply for this?
Because 767 FOs saw the opportunity to get a command upgrade and so were happy to take the pay cut (on a CP wage). To compare this with what is happening at Jetstar is not irrelevant – the pay difference is. Good on them if a 767 FO at AO earns more than a CP at JQ. It however is the same slide that you all keep blaming JQ with. It continues to amaze me the hypocritical attitude that writes this off as “different” and not the same as what has happened with the Jetstar crews.
Mate..... I am only here to attempt to correct the fallacies that you continue to expound.
Cruise FOs don’t get allowances – wrong.
Cruise FOs have to take days off away base – wrong.
At least get your facts straight.
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We are obviously arguing about different topics.
The fact that AO exists and that its pilots are employed under a different EBA than the company from which they came is not the topic of debate. AO T&C are still in line with industry standard!!! Jetstar however is not.
The T&C agreed upon by the Jetstar pilot group are below par, plain and simple. Anyone who thinks otherwise or tries to defend the abismal T&C are doing themselves (and everyone else in the industry) a diservice. Now that JQ Int'l EBA is in place the airlines growth will be exponential. This is at the expense of the opportunity to do the same flying under fair T&C that have been negotiated over the last 80 odd years.
Who started the trend is irrelevant. What is going to be done to buck this trend is something we all need to work together to achieve.
This infighting amongst the pilot groups is exactly what industrial relations managers work to achieve. Unfortunatetly given that an EBA has been signed and pilots are now working under these dodgy conditions, means that we all have our work cut out for us if we are ever going to achieve what is industry standard.
The fact that AO exists and that its pilots are employed under a different EBA than the company from which they came is not the topic of debate. AO T&C are still in line with industry standard!!! Jetstar however is not.
The T&C agreed upon by the Jetstar pilot group are below par, plain and simple. Anyone who thinks otherwise or tries to defend the abismal T&C are doing themselves (and everyone else in the industry) a diservice. Now that JQ Int'l EBA is in place the airlines growth will be exponential. This is at the expense of the opportunity to do the same flying under fair T&C that have been negotiated over the last 80 odd years.
Who started the trend is irrelevant. What is going to be done to buck this trend is something we all need to work together to achieve.
This infighting amongst the pilot groups is exactly what industrial relations managers work to achieve. Unfortunatetly given that an EBA has been signed and pilots are now working under these dodgy conditions, means that we all have our work cut out for us if we are ever going to achieve what is industry standard.
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What I define as standard is the average of what other airlines pay their crew to do the same job.
Not 2 hard 2 find. Look at any crewing company and see what they pay their employees for doing the same job (we all do it).
Or simply google search "airline pilot pay scales" etc. The pay associated with almost any airline can be found online.
Try this one for starters: http://www.willflyforfood.cc/airlinepilotpay/
Believe me, u guys r being robbed!!! And the fact that you defend these T&C is what concerns the rest of us as it's sets an artificial benchmark for our own negotiations...
Not 2 hard 2 find. Look at any crewing company and see what they pay their employees for doing the same job (we all do it).
Or simply google search "airline pilot pay scales" etc. The pay associated with almost any airline can be found online.
Try this one for starters: http://www.willflyforfood.cc/airlinepilotpay/
Believe me, u guys r being robbed!!! And the fact that you defend these T&C is what concerns the rest of us as it's sets an artificial benchmark for our own negotiations...
Last edited by P2T2; 1st Mar 2007 at 07:17.
Are AO 767 captains paid as much as mainline 767 Captains?
The obvious answer is no. Why then would anyone apply for this?
The obvious answer is no. Why then would anyone apply for this?
Conditions are different and that is where the saving is!
The agreement to crew AO is a successful way for mainline pilots to be flexible, exactly what the company wanted. If you are a mainline pilot and you don't want to go to AO then you don't have to. However the operation as I said is a form of productivity for the whole mainline pilot group! Do your time and then head back and enjoy mainline.
You question integrity, get your facts right to back up the argument!