Night Watch,

I think the Rat was a pre-first-flight customer for both the 707 and 747? Indeed Billy Boeing rejigged the 707 to become the -138.

404 Titan,

As far as maint costs go with the new materials, one suspects that with the prospect of 115 airframes, Qantas has managed to wring out some guarantees out of Boeing regarding that side of things.

And wasn't Qantas pretty early-on with the RR-powered 744s?

And any news on what the plan is for the 743s? I had thought some of the (expected) 777s were going to be to replace them.

I suspect the whole race is not over yet.


Just noticed this quote in the QF announcement on the ASX website (http://www.asx.com.au//asxpdf/200512...zk5hk8t55s.pdf):

“Under the fleet plan, the Qantas Group will acquire 115 B787 aircraft”

And further on…

“[Mr Dixon] said Qantas would require up to 145 engines”

Now I’m no mathematician, but that’s (145/115 = 1.26) engines per aircraft.

Either that, or the cat’s out of the bag on Boeing’s cunning plan to roll out a single-engined variant in a few years…

Wonder if they’ll get 207m ETOPS on that lot…


It's a Boeing, so I'll be a-going... but not on less than two donks!

Off topic, but as long as you've mentioned it!! The 767 was in fact originally designed to have an F/E, and the first few where being built when it was converted to 2 pilot. It therefore wasn't a big deal to put the panel back in for the early Ansett aircraft.

404,

CX paid about US$100 million for each of its 12 new 777-300ER, Boeing won on the price of the package. The list price for the aircraft is between US$226.0 -- 253.0 million.

QF have purchased 45 firm 787s, signed for 20 options and 50 extra purchase rights. They have not paid for 115 aircraft, they are not getting 115 aircraft at this stage either.

First QF deliveries in 2008.

QF have agreed to pay less than the list price for a 737-800 for each of its 787's, the list price of the 737-800 is between US$63.5 -- 72.0 million. The list price for the 787-8 is between US$125.0 -- 135.0 million.

Does anyone notice a trend ?...discounting by over 60% ?

Industry joke at the moment, the more plastic an aeroplane, the more QF will buy it.

What about AO???
 

Look at the announcement on the QF Website - "They will cater for international capacity growth and new routes, as well as replacing the Qantas Group's fleet of wide-body Boeing 767-300s".

Only Mention of QF and JQ, no mention of AO.

A glaring omission ... AO all over to JQ international by early 2007?

You know Wiz, as soon as I'd finished typing that, I thought "I bet someone knows that it was planned with a 3rd seat!":ok: I guess taking the seat out meant we could call it a 762NG!!!:} :ouch:

Taildragger QF also got Boeing to put more UD windows on the 742...err...too!:) Also, re the donks, the new 747-8 will be using the same ones as the 787....hmmmm.;)

Nope, the 748 has a smaller fan diameter, and its not bleedless like the GEnx for the 787.

About as close as the RB211 on the 747 is to the RB211 on the A340.

SWH

RB211s on A340?? Aren't they Trents (rather than 211s) on A330, A345 & 346?

Or do you mean RB211s on 767 and 757?

Blastoid,

last I saw AO was part of the Qantas GROUP.

Read your own post.

The 340-500 & 340-600 have RB211 Trent 500 powerplants, a Trent is a RB211. The RB211 Trent 700 is on the 330. People for short call them Trent 500/700 etc.

Well, it seems like its "Point out Busters mistakes day" today!:ok:

I was probably not specific enough, but I'll take your word for it swh. I was going on the 748F blurb & some mention of it using the GEnx-2B67 65,000lbs thrust. I note the GEnx is rated between 53,000 & 72,000lbs.:)

Actual order is 45 X 787's with options on 70 more and that equals US$18 billion why can't you get your figures right.

Vortsa

Get your figures right ???

You say 118 units but QF say 115 units

In the rush to be the first out with the news some one got it wrong, check with the Manufacturer for the right answer.

Here it is

SEATTLE, Dec. 13, 2005 -- The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] and Qantas announced today that the airline has selected the Boeing 787 Dreamliner and plans to buy up to 115 787s for renewal and expansion of its long-haul fleet.

Boeing and Qantas are finalizing an agreement that will include orders for 45 Dreamliners, with 20 options plus purchase rights for an additional 50 airplanes. The announcement by Qantas is the largest to date for the Dreamliner in terms of the total package.

The first four 787-8s will be delivered to Qantas\' Jetstar subsidiary in 2008, with plans for a total of 28 to be in operation with Qantas and Jetstar by December 2011. Qantas\' and Jetstar\'s airplanes will be split between the 787-8 (up to 300 seats in Jetstar\'s low-cost configuration) and 787-9 (up to 350 seats).

\"Today, we continue the program that is setting the airline\'s course of the future,\" said Geoff Dixon, CEO of Qantas Airways. \"With our unique geographic challenges, we need all the advantages we can take to compete effectively against some of the industry\'s toughest. The 787 family will help us provide increased or new services by Qantas and Jetstar to 15 destinations and to destinations which we cannot currently profitably serve.\"

Qantas recently approved the establishment of a new long-haul, value-based airline under the Jetstar brand to commence international operations no later than January 2007. Jetstar\'s initial international route structure would require 10 aircraft on point-to-point routes between Australia and Asian and Pacific cities, complementing Qantas\' mainline international operations.

Qantas has yet to announce an engine choice between the Rolls-Royce Trent 1000 and GE Aircraft Engines GEnx power plants.

\"Our relationship with Qantas dates to the very start of the jet age, and we\'re thrilled to see that relationship continue with the 787,\" said Alan Mulally, president and CEO, Boeing Commercial Airplanes. \"The 787 is a game-changer for airline profitability and for passenger comfort. Qantas\' evaluation was particularly rigorous, and we welcome this endorsement and opportunity to be part of Qantas\'s future.\"

Boeing developed the 787 for the mid-sized jetliner market, estimated at 3,500 aircraft over the next 20 years. The 787 will be more than 50 percent advanced carbon composites which allow higher cabin humidity, a lower cabin altitude and the largest windows in the industry.

Two high-efficiency engines combined with a high-tech construction mean the 787 will produce seat-mile costs normally associated with much larger aircraft.

In addition to bringing big-jet ranges to mid-size airplanes, the 787 will provide airlines with unmatched fuel efficiency, resulting in exceptional environmental performance. The airplane will use 20 percent less fuel for comparable missions than any similarly-sized airplane. It will also travel at speeds similar to today\'s fastest wide bodies, Mach 0.85. Also, airlines will enjoy more cargo revenue capacity.

Boeing now has 354 orders and commitments from 26 customers for the 787.

Vortsa

Now that you have corrected your 48 units to 45 units , your figures are now correct.

ftrplt,

Point taken ... but you know what I was getting at.

787s for Jet*, no mention of 787s for AO, but they are getting rid of 767s.

Maybe the will get them, I think by the time 787s are due for delivery AO will have been absorbed into J* International.

My 2c.

Maybe I'm just cynical....

John Howard forces through the new IR laws which will benefit QF immeasurably.

QF rewards Johnnie by allowing him to ring his Sherrif mate and give him the good news of a huge order for his ailing subsidised arms industry.

The icing on this one might be some new heavy life aircraft for those 20 year old second hand tanks that we've been conned into buying. Now, where are we going to fly them to?

At least Haliburton is not involved for a change.

Sunfish

A touch of the 'Sir Eric Pearce' here but a CF6-80A with FADEC!

Not the last time I looked. :confused: :ok:

Back to the 787, I wonder what a composite fuselage looks like after a decent lightning strike, it scorches and pits aluminium but blows holes and generally knackers composites.

Not a good look on a pressurised hull!!!:suspect:

A Composite structure does not mean that the structure is biult without an alloy base. New fuselage construction involves layering alluminiums between layers of a fibre sandwich. This allows a thinner aluminium structure, hence less weight but a stronger bonded structurer.

The actual procedure for inspecting for lightening strikes is not available yet.

Given the amount of testing that goes into any new aircraft, pioneered by Boeing, you can be assured that this question has been addressed.

Anyone
 

Someone has to be the first customer/guinea pig.

Go for an existing design and we'll all be criticising them for "going with an outdated and underdeveloped design", I suppose...


520.

The QF/JQ split
 

An extract from the media release yesterday reference QF/AO and the dreamliners:

Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said the re-equipment contract would provide the maximum flexibility for Qantas, allowing it to allocate new planes between Qantas and the international and domestic operations of Jetstar.

"They (Jetstar) get the first 10 and there's then quite a few to go to Qantas, but our view on that is that we will allocate the aircraft between Qantas and Jetstar where we can get the most viable returns," Mr Dixon said. "What we're trying to make sure is that both Jetstar and Qantas Airlines have a viable future. This is an incredibly tough industry."


I dont believe the numbers given are set in stone.

ie high cost of fuel,
emirates paying no tax etc, etc and suddenly it is more viable (and easily justified) to put more of them into JQ Intl.

............. or am I just suspicious

Cheers Oz2