Aviation’s Future. Navy blue singlets, thongs, and hankies tied around your head?

[Winstun]

My extremely supportive wife would much rather be married to a husband who is happy in his job, than married to an unhappy individual who is raking in the dough.

...wouldnt be so sure...picture please!!

WHY should WE bother trying to assist the Next Generations?

... From an independent academic position, I am of the understanding that the next generation are, in the usefullness and relavence of union membership, still to this day, appreciating the worthwhile assistance and contributions made by the Kaptin and his gang of 89..........

[Keg]

NG, I get it- probably better than you know.

Don't get me wrong. I love flying. It is the most fun I've had sitting down. I know that being a pilot and away from home for half my life has it's costs. It costs me about triple in phone bills, it costs triple in making up for time away by going out for dinner, movies, etc and trying to make time at home as 'special' as I can for my wife and kids due to the fact that I regularly say 'I won't be around to support you for ten days, I'm off to fly aeroplanes, have fun, eat out, drink with the boys, etc'. The ONLY compensation we have for that is money. Yes I could 'survive' on less but I'm not just a pilot. I'm also a husband and a father and they rank a LONG way in front of being a pilot.

You feel that I've taken a shot at you and your family by saying 'good luck' and you take offense. You obviously don't practise what you preach when you imply my wife is with me for money! If she was it would make my job of leaving them for days at a time a hell of a lot easier. I see as half my pay being compensation for my wife and kids for the fact that I'm NOT there to help out all the time. A reflux infant and a four year old tends to wipe the other halves out and being adequately payed for what I do assists with the 'recovery' from those situations.

Again, (and again for some), you are happy with what you are getting. and I'm genuinely happy for you Someone WILL appear and do it for less. Congratulations on having a wife that is happy for you to be happy flying, most people can't claim that. However, the reason that GA is the way it is is because EVERYONE has your attitude. Hope you enjoy your life when the airlines are EXACTLY the same way.

Still don't get it NG? Give it a few years and when someone has come along and undercut you and you're under pressure to get a a 'real' job to help with the bills and then you may. Need to lose those rose coloured glasses digger otherwise when the colour finally wears off you'll scare yourself stupid at just how the world looks!

Have a nice life.

[Patriot One]

NG - I'm sorry to say that you are not brave for stating your position here - you are only showing an extraordinary niavety. The simple fact is that many, many of the pilots on this site have watched as the profession that they loved (and joined with the same enthusiasm as you) has deteriorated and they have most likely had the spirit beaten out of them for most of their careers. On a previous thread I stated that in my experience it takes about 5 years for a starry eyed pilot to become demotivated in the commercial industry. It is not just about salaries. More often than not reductions in salaries are also met with dumbing down in management areas, which inevitably leads to dumbing down of standards. It is human to put up with a certain amount of bullsh*t if there is a compensating reward, such as a decent salary. When the rewards are few a professional pilot will feel extremely exposed in a cockpit by the poor standards that create risk, and by his ever-lowering salary which does not balance the extra responsibility he has had dumped on him/her. This is usually the time that he feels demotivated by his industry and his profession.

Sadly it is very hard to arrest the spiral in the commercial world. Someone will always try to seek commercial advantage by cutting costs wherever possible. It is interesting that in the management world corporations are now recognising that good management is key to success. Managers are now starting to be incentivised to join companies - but note, this follows many years of dumbing down of management, which in essence has a knock-on effect in the employee ranks. Dumb managers do not inspire staff. The Corporate world is now getting big on paying for responsibility - inevitably this will mean performance based pay, which is appropriate only if measured against strict success criteria. As Wiley pointed out, the merchant marine industry has realied, too late, the perils of dumbing down. My personal opinion, and one that I have tried (and I think, failed) to express inother threads is that the perils of dumbing down this industry and the pilot profession in particular will mean a whole lot more than the loss of a few crewmen, a quantity of iron ore, and the bell tolling at Lloyds in London.

But who is going to stop the spiral? Sad to say NG, as long as the likes of VB can get ahold of people with your attitude towards flying then the the profession will continue to drag wearily down to mediocrity. It's all well and good to say the the love of flying is your inspiration, but at what point do you consider that you aren't paid enough relative to the responsibility of all those people behind you? I would say 90% of pilots would accept a fair wage relative to the responsibility. It's a profession, it has tremendous risks, and despite advancements in technology the pilots role will never be replaced by a machine or a software program. The real risk is in the perception of management that advances in technology have made the pilot's job easier, and therefore (somehow) his/her responsibilities less - therefore we can afford to pay him/her less. I'm not a pilot but I don't think the landing environment is any less-dangerous than it has ever been. Technology certainly assists - but it can just as easily assist you into a dangerous position as a safe one. In a computers "mind" the earth isn't hard - it's merely a process, and a "soft" one at that.

Take 2 pilots - one in GA, one in a major airline. Salary difference? - huge. Capability? - relative to the individual NOT the salary. It's not the salary - it's the environment that is prepared to dilute the value of a pilot, and consequently the profession.

It used to be that to climb Mt Everest took a dedicated professional with years and years of experience and technical capability. Nowadays you can pay someone to drag your sorry arse up the mountain and back down. Does that make you a professional climber? Nowadays VB can get many, many "gee whiz" pilots to join the ranks - it has opened opportunities for younger, less experienced pilots. Many people blame the '89ers - but interesting that few are prepared to blame VB. VB has done more to damage your profession than '89 ever did.

..once again, for the record, this isn't a personal crusade against VB. When I first started writing on PPRUNE it was to relate my opinion on the damage that VB will do the Australian industry. This thread only advocates my theory...and certainly the responses of NG only confirm what I have said.....

[The Bullwinkle]

Aviation’s Future. Navy blue singlets, thongs, and hankies tied around your head?

Are things really THAT bad !!!!!!............

BW

[cunninglinguist]

Quote: " just because I believe that being paid 200k or more to sit up the front and push buttons "

Have'nt you blokes worked it out yet?, is that the quote of someone with vast aviation experience, denegrating his own profession?
That is the sort of ignorant comment that comes from someone outside the industry, I doubt that NG is a pilot and if he is probably has'nt reached 100 hours yet.

As for the blue singlet and stubbies, if you had told an airline pilot back in the 80s they would be wearing an open shirt, no cap and a leather bomber jacket, they probably would have laughed at you. So whats the next step ?

[GT-R]

Im getting sick of hearing this 'someone will come around and do it for half' etc etc until 'we are paying to go flying.'

Thats such a crock, how many people in GA would like to be flying jets on the same pay rate as a Grade III instructor? And how long do you think people have been wanting to do this?

When is it going to happen ??


Stop being so elitist people, there is nothing special about flying aeroplanes, one can easily complete all the training required and fly big jets within a year of having the money to do it.

How long do Doctor's spend studying ??

[Johhny Utah]

Next Gen - calm down for a second and have a think about what you're posting...
You state:

If pilot y is happy with what he is doing and how much he is earning, then leave him be. You on the other hand want to make him feel inadequate because he isn't on the same money as pilot x.

Wrong! I have NEVER gone out of my way to point out to someone how much more money than them I make. However, there have been plenty of people (yourself included) who advocate that I am overpaid. Note that it is not that I am overpaid relative to themselves, but merely overpaid. This is the sort of statement that I take offence at & which I belive is contributing to the downward pressure on the wages of our profession. After all, if certain managers think we're overpaid (ideally we'd all work for $0 - good for the balance sheet) and fellow pilots think we're overpaid - then hell, we MUST be overpaid. Do you see where I'm coming from?

I actually think that the problem is not that most airline pilots are overpaid - they're not -but that the vast majority of GA pilots are grossly underpaid. Perhaps we should try & raise the lowest level of pay, rather than dragging down the highest. After all, which approach stands to benefit our profession the greatest? You tell me...

[meanestman]

I might play devils for a moment.
Lets say the industrial events of '89 is not responsible, even in part, for the gradual demise of salaries and conditions we see today.
The problem lies both in "perception" and supply / demand.
Business worldwide is continually under the squeeze of ever increasing efficiencies of scale, thanks to modernism of commication and automation, add to this catastrophie and war and you see a problem.
The fast paced nature of change makes for the "competitive edge" being so much more pertinent than it ever has been. This ties in to perception, and "ones worth". Can you honestly expect, in a country where pilot supply far outstrips demand, that johnny public would see a VB captain on 140K a year as being "underpaid?" When he/she themselves have just completed six years of uni (graduating in honours) after busting an academic gut, to find there is scarcely a job to go to?
If its money and exemplary conditions youre after, then you have to look globally, and go to a place where the gap between supply and demand may be not so wide.
1989, whilst I tire of its constant re-hashing here, Is a glitch in history (a bad one I agree) is not responsible for the shape of the airline game today. I do admire the strength of those who fought to preserve their conditions, and do not agree in principle with those who broke ranks. However, its the name calling 14 years on of a small minority, that makes it hard to respect credibilty.
NG loves his flying, thats fine, I too hope after 20 or so years he/she sings the same tune. Just dont let us all down, by ever accepting a deal not agreed too by the collective masses, as money and conditions (like fair rostering etc) will one day be very important to you. You have gone a fair way in exposing your ignorance, by the remark about 200K and button pushing. To pilot an airliner of the jet variety takes a lot more than that, I hope one day you'll get to see that. This is a career path we hope to be on, look up career in the dictionary. You'll see that as long as productivity, responsibilty, and workload ( which all translates into stress) increases, one should be fairly remunerated.
What you do now IS easy, Ive done it, sure it was fun.
Whats important to me now is educating my child, owning my house, health insurance, retirement, maybe oneday a boat..........

[The Bullwinkle]

Can you honestly expect, in a country where pilot supply far outstrips demand, that johnny public would see a VB captain on 140K a year as being "underpaid?"

I don't believe any sane person could possibly call that underpaid.

BW

[Groaner]

"pull the aircraft apart bolt by bolt, and then re-assemble it"

errr, which RPT aircraft gets pilots to completely disassemble and reassemble it?

I'd just like to avoid it if possible...

[compressor stall]

Groaner,

I would not. I would like to know that my pilots are fully aware of how the aircraft works (and not just the lights on the dash) for problem solving when the **** hits the fan.

CS

[Planned Root]

I couldn't give a stuff about the wages!!!!!......

[splatgothebugs]

Wages....."are those, those things you should get once a week"

Whoever said GA needs sorting out was totally correct.

After living on next to nothing for 5 years because you get paid jack for working, getting $100k + per year is required to regain your losses.

Money is not everything, but if someone is going to other you large sums of money to do what you love, ARE YOU GOING TO SAY NO........ I think not.

The important thing to remember is that your doing what you love, if your not and your only doing it for the money it's time to rethink your choice of career



While I bi%&}ing, I think most people who fly tend to know as much as they can about the A/C they are flying, it's safety thing and also helps you out when are broken down in the middle of nowhere and need to explain to the engineers what the problem is

[huan hung lo]

****! with so many ignorant twits out there who would fly for peanuts I should be looking at starting my own operation.

Think of the money I could make!

NG you could be my chief pilot on lets say $15000 pa? Oh yeah and I'll even throw in movie passes for you and the missus!

[Next Generation]

huan hung lo Now you're starting to get the idea! Will you include the blue singlet and thongs in the deal, or do I have to provide those myself.

The bottom line is you would not have the capacity to start your own organisation, but assuming that you did, you are now advocating exactly the type of tactics that you are so against as a pilot.

I have no doubt that you would find somebody to fill your Chief Pilot position. I have done my time as a low-paid casual, and I have now moved up to a more comfortable position. However, my idea of comfortable and yours are probably completely different.

And by the way, should you employ me on $15000, could you at least refrain from refering to me as ignorant.

Thanks.

[Ralph the Bong]

Next Generation, let's look at the wage and salay issue from another perspective; that of a bean counter. Let's just say that you spent 3 years at uni learning how to count beans(about the level of study for an ATPL plus a couple of heavy turbines and a jet type) and then you did your professional year (about as much study and on the job training as your first year at QF or DJ with sims etc) and then with about 5 years of working in the 'industry' our hypothetical bean counter gets a job at a widget factory as a Financial Controler (reporting to the CEO). This factory has a total value(inventory, building , land goodwill, forward orders etc) of $50Million and a staff of 130. This is the approx. value of a B737 and its passenger carrying compliament. The sort of salary that this position attracts is around $100K. This more than a Virgin Blue FO gets and our hypothetical beanhead has far less responsibility.Do you think this person is overpaid? What would the CEO get? Such a person would have spent 10 years as a manager at a lower level (perhaps as a Financial Controller) serving an apprentiship much in way that an FO needs prior to command. The CEO would be on $150-200 K easy. However, If the CEO or FC screws up, it's not likely anyone will die. If the widget factory 'crashes' with a total loss, will there be an end financial cost to the community of close to $1Billion? Not likely.They can also go home most nights and be with their families, have a social calender with regular Sunday BBQs with friends, actually be there to see the kids play sport, have X-Mas off, not be on the other side of the planet when a family crisis occurs. Consider too that if you develop a medical problem and have to retire 5 years early you may miss out on about $1.5M salary that you may have earned.Keg is quite correct; the high salary is but recompense for the level of responsibily required and for being stuffed around. To the companies, you are nothing but a licence and a suitcase. Dont take this all the wrong way, mate, we older blokes are trying to help you formulate an appropriate attitude to your work and your chosen profession. It's nice to go flying, but remember that your family have lives too. BTW some years ago Mrs. Bong and I worked out that to run a middle-class home in SYD requiered a MINIMUM of $48K NETT per annum(Incl food , 2 cars, mort. ins, 2 kids at public school and no frills such as boat, horse riding lessons etc.). On a VB FO salary, ya would JUST scrape in. Wiley, as an after thought, I know a long distance train driver who makes about $60k, so I guess we are just about there...

[Perpetual_Hold_File]

NG, I hope to see you post here again in a few years time and see how your position on your job, wage and conditions is then.

You reek of a new fresh entry into this industry, along with some of your other pals posting their dribble on other threads discussing GA wages and conditions. While it is great to be all wide eyed and overly excited at your new flying job don't drag everyone else down by accepting and supporting conditions and wages below that which you are entitled to becuase in the end you are just shooting yourself in the foot.

If you just love flying so much then quit and get that other job earning all that money and fly at the local aero club on the weekends.

Don't drag the rest of us down, some of are trying to carve out a living doing a job.

[Sub-Sonic MB]

Nice to know Ralph TB is endeavouring to maintain/regain the salary he had as a scab.
NG, I am afraid that the best description with which to fit you is that you are naively foolish.
Very few people enter flying on the basis of anything other than passion for flight itself.
It has, in the professional aviator's realm, nothing to do with remuneration at a proper level for the job done by a commercial pilot.
Unfortunately, you are mixing the two, and that is exactly what the boffins who run companies want you to do.
The more bias they can levy on those like you who think the passion for flying is greater than the reward for the profession, the more chance they have of squeezing you until, one day, the pimple will burst.
The attittude of the pilots when that occurs will determine who gets most of the pus over them.

[Next Generation]

Ralph the Bong
I get fed up with the comparisons between differing jobs with wages and salaries. If you want to be a bean-counter or a CEO, then F@ck off and do that, and leave the flying to those who want to do it! Nobody held a gun at your head and told you to become a pilot. You made a choice!

Perpetual_Hold_File

If you just love flying so much then quit and get that other job earning all that money and fly at the local aero club on the weekends.

You have totally missed my point. I don't want "that other job earning all that money". I want this job, and I am happy with what I get paid.

Why can't you lot just be happy doing what you're doing.

[meanestman]

NG
we get the point, franky couldnt give a rats areoli how much you love it and for how little you'd do it. Im always sus on people who feel the need to hammer you with how much they dig their job, love someone, enjoy simulator checks etc etc ...get my point ?? so button it and go lube up.