Qantas Heavy Landing At Sydney?
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As usual.....
...the media can be relied upon for accurate information...... 
The newsreader on the teaser for the 6pm news on Nine here in Perth used the phrase "Qantas jumbo in an emergency landing gone wrong."
Sheesh!!!
They didn't even know about the fire until at the gate, so why "emergency landing"?
and What exactly is an "emergency landing gone wrong"? A crash, perhaps?????
Geez, makes you wonder about common sense when women wear stilettoes/pointy heels on a flight...... my motto is, wear what you'd be comfortable in walking around the bush for 3 days.... just in case....
SS
The newsreader on the teaser for the 6pm news on Nine here in Perth used the phrase "Qantas jumbo in an emergency landing gone wrong."
Sheesh!!!
They didn't even know about the fire until at the gate, so why "emergency landing"?
and What exactly is an "emergency landing gone wrong"? A crash, perhaps?????
Geez, makes you wonder about common sense when women wear stilettoes/pointy heels on a flight...... my motto is, wear what you'd be comfortable in walking around the bush for 3 days.... just in case....
SS
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What would I feel comfortable walking around the bush in for three days.....
I want to be dressed in camoflage gear and have my trusty victorinox knife, but for some reason i just don't think I would get past the search nazis with that on
I want to be dressed in camoflage gear and have my trusty victorinox knife, but for some reason i just don't think I would get past the search nazis with that on
Hot pete, whether it happened or not I dont know but"High Heels Off" is a REQUIRED call during an evac...
Sorry Hot Pete just reread your post and maybe i was directing my post at the other bloke
dohhhhh!!!
Sorry Hot Pete just reread your post and maybe i was directing my post at the other bloke
dohhhhh!!!
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Fire wall - see the photo on the Herald website - ends of the wings turned up. She's a -400
Hot Pete - next time you're paxing, take a look at how few punters pay attention to the safety demo. No wonder they didn't think to 'remove high heels'. I agree with wearing anything you'd be happy in the bush in - also what you reckon would allow you to crawl through burning wreckage in isn't a bad plan. As for the F/A - maybe they did yell out to get heels off, but with all the panic yelling & screaming, it might not have sunk into the skull quick enough - or there was another punter behind, pushing. At the door, it's too late: 'sorry ma'am, please just stand aside in this burning fuselage and remove your heels, there's a good girl'. I think not. F/As need to be able to throw nurf balls at inattentive punters during the briefing, to get them to pay attention - or maybe ask a couple of questions afterwards to make sure all were paying attention. Now there's a thought: add a line to the briefing: 'take a look at the person sitting next to you. They might have to help you out, so make sure they're paying attention now'.
Anyway glad everyone got out and lived to play another day. Better safe than toast. If nothing else, maybe we have learnt something from that 737 in Manchester which started smoking on the ground & people died (the one where the empennage fell off). Smoke? I'm outta here!!
Hot Pete - next time you're paxing, take a look at how few punters pay attention to the safety demo. No wonder they didn't think to 'remove high heels'. I agree with wearing anything you'd be happy in the bush in - also what you reckon would allow you to crawl through burning wreckage in isn't a bad plan. As for the F/A - maybe they did yell out to get heels off, but with all the panic yelling & screaming, it might not have sunk into the skull quick enough - or there was another punter behind, pushing. At the door, it's too late: 'sorry ma'am, please just stand aside in this burning fuselage and remove your heels, there's a good girl'. I think not. F/As need to be able to throw nurf balls at inattentive punters during the briefing, to get them to pay attention - or maybe ask a couple of questions afterwards to make sure all were paying attention. Now there's a thought: add a line to the briefing: 'take a look at the person sitting next to you. They might have to help you out, so make sure they're paying attention now'.
Anyway glad everyone got out and lived to play another day. Better safe than toast. If nothing else, maybe we have learnt something from that 737 in Manchester which started smoking on the ground & people died (the one where the empennage fell off). Smoke? I'm outta here!!
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Do the flight attendants order everyone to take off their shoes - or just those ladies that wear high heels? In a Spanair DC10 over-run accident years ago, everyone took off their shoes in response to F/A directions, and many passengers suffered severe foot injuries caused by jagged metal and burning fragments.
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Has anyone heard how long it took to evacuate all the PAX and how many were on board? It would be interesting to compare this with the trials that have been done as an indication of how long it takes under a real evacuation i.e. panic, confusion, dotty old ladies in sandshoes, posh ones in stilletos...
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Short Field,
The media reported all were evacuated in 90 seconds, which is what our aim was in training.
I have absolute faith in my collegues that this time frame was met.
I doubt the media know the exact time anyway.
The media reported all were evacuated in 90 seconds, which is what our aim was in training.
I have absolute faith in my collegues that this time frame was met.
I doubt the media know the exact time anyway.
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Pullock,
Yes you're right, smoke from hot brakes is regular occurrence and as has been noted in this thread, a couple of oil drops or a bit of dust can add to the mix. Sorry - was just adding my (sadly, seemingly ever increasing... ) weight to the 'well-done, better-safe-than-sorry' camp. Not suggesting an evac every time a bit of steam comes off the discs.
Cheers
TD67
Yes you're right, smoke from hot brakes is regular occurrence and as has been noted in this thread, a couple of oil drops or a bit of dust can add to the mix. Sorry - was just adding my (sadly, seemingly ever increasing... ) weight to the 'well-done, better-safe-than-sorry' camp. Not suggesting an evac every time a bit of steam comes off the discs.
Cheers
TD67
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Love a pic of the F/O heading down the chute with the extinguisher (and no doubt the seniority list).
Probably has shares in Macquarie's Airport Trust and realised there were none landside, or perhaps...
Amazing what F/O's will want to be seen to be doing when there's a potential LHS cremation in the offing.
Probably has shares in Macquarie's Airport Trust and realised there were none landside, or perhaps...
Amazing what F/O's will want to be seen to be doing when there's a potential LHS cremation in the offing.
The Reverend
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Not only Qantas has brake fires but not everybody has an emergency evacuation..
AAIB Bulletin No: 11/96 Ref: EW/C96/9/2 Category: 1.1
Aircraft Type and Registration: Boeing 747-467, VR-HUE
No & Type of Engines: 4 Rolls-Royce RB211-524G turbofan engines
Year of Manufacture: 1993
Date & Time (UTC): 9 September 1996 at 0336 hrs
Location: Stand M26, London Heathrow Airport
Type of Flight: Scheduled Passenger
Persons on Board: Crew - 22 - Passengers - 387
Injuries: Crew - Nil - Passengers - Nil
Nature of Damage: Damage to No 1 wheel, tyre and brake pack
Commander's Licence: Airline Transport Pilot's Licence
Commander's Age: 48 years
Commander's Flying Experience: 13,804 hours (of which 3,424 were on type)
Last 90 days - 171 hours
Last 28 days - 21 hours
Information Source: AAIB Field Investigation.
The aircraft had previously operated a sector from Singapore to Hong Kong, following which the No 1 main wheel assembly, complete with bearings, had been changed due to tyre wear. The aircraft then operated the Hong Kong to Heathrow sector normally until, after parking on the stand and while the passengers were disembarking, a ground engineer reported a brake fire. The fire was rapidly extinguished by the ground crew. The Airport Fire Service arrived just three minutes after being called, however the fire was out when they arrived, and they then continued to monitor the situation while the disembarkation continued normally.
Inspection of the aircraft showed that a limited fire had occurred affecting only the No 1 wheel and brake. The wheel and brake pack were removed and the axle inspected, but no other damage was found. A replacement wheel and brake pack were fitted and the aircraft was returned to service. No anti-skid or thrust reverser defects were reported or found, and the runway condition had been dry. The landing weight had been calculated as 249,200 kg and medium autobrake had been used during the landing.
It was noted that the tyre was contaminated with grease which had been thrown radially outwards by wheel rotation, and that excessive grease was visible around the inner bearing. The grease had been very hot, and a quantity of old grease had accumulated around the heat shield within the brake pack assembly. The inner bearing was inspected and found to contain excessive quantities of grease which had exuded from the bearing and migrated radially outwards. There was no evidence that the grease had come from the axle, or brake pack. The replacement wheel was inspected before fitment and it was noted that excessive grease had also been packed in the associated wheel bearings. The excess grease was removed before fitting the wheel.
Both of the wheel and bearing assemblies had been overhauled by the operator. The maintenance organisation in London has advised the operator of the problem. The operator's Engineering Department had published an Advisory Newsletter in June 1996 advising that a few cases of carbon brake fires had been reported and that these were thought to be due to excessive grease application during wheel, or brake, installation. It stated: "Excessive grease may cause a fire when the brake becomes hot".
AAIB Bulletin No: 11/96 Ref: EW/C96/9/2 Category: 1.1
Aircraft Type and Registration: Boeing 747-467, VR-HUE
No & Type of Engines: 4 Rolls-Royce RB211-524G turbofan engines
Year of Manufacture: 1993
Date & Time (UTC): 9 September 1996 at 0336 hrs
Location: Stand M26, London Heathrow Airport
Type of Flight: Scheduled Passenger
Persons on Board: Crew - 22 - Passengers - 387
Injuries: Crew - Nil - Passengers - Nil
Nature of Damage: Damage to No 1 wheel, tyre and brake pack
Commander's Licence: Airline Transport Pilot's Licence
Commander's Age: 48 years
Commander's Flying Experience: 13,804 hours (of which 3,424 were on type)
Last 90 days - 171 hours
Last 28 days - 21 hours
Information Source: AAIB Field Investigation.
The aircraft had previously operated a sector from Singapore to Hong Kong, following which the No 1 main wheel assembly, complete with bearings, had been changed due to tyre wear. The aircraft then operated the Hong Kong to Heathrow sector normally until, after parking on the stand and while the passengers were disembarking, a ground engineer reported a brake fire. The fire was rapidly extinguished by the ground crew. The Airport Fire Service arrived just three minutes after being called, however the fire was out when they arrived, and they then continued to monitor the situation while the disembarkation continued normally.
Inspection of the aircraft showed that a limited fire had occurred affecting only the No 1 wheel and brake. The wheel and brake pack were removed and the axle inspected, but no other damage was found. A replacement wheel and brake pack were fitted and the aircraft was returned to service. No anti-skid or thrust reverser defects were reported or found, and the runway condition had been dry. The landing weight had been calculated as 249,200 kg and medium autobrake had been used during the landing.
It was noted that the tyre was contaminated with grease which had been thrown radially outwards by wheel rotation, and that excessive grease was visible around the inner bearing. The grease had been very hot, and a quantity of old grease had accumulated around the heat shield within the brake pack assembly. The inner bearing was inspected and found to contain excessive quantities of grease which had exuded from the bearing and migrated radially outwards. There was no evidence that the grease had come from the axle, or brake pack. The replacement wheel was inspected before fitment and it was noted that excessive grease had also been packed in the associated wheel bearings. The excess grease was removed before fitting the wheel.
Both of the wheel and bearing assemblies had been overhauled by the operator. The maintenance organisation in London has advised the operator of the problem. The operator's Engineering Department had published an Advisory Newsletter in June 1996 advising that a few cases of carbon brake fires had been reported and that these were thought to be due to excessive grease application during wheel, or brake, installation. It stated: "Excessive grease may cause a fire when the brake becomes hot".
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Hudson,
'high heels off' is a required call drummed in during regular QF evac training (tech crew do the same training incidently). It gets shouted out with monotonous regularity while you're waiting for the slide to inflate.
I'd find it difficult to believe (though not impossible, I suppose) that all of the door primaries omitted this. I'd find it much easier to believe that some pax just didn't hear it in the commotion, or heard it & ignored it. Time will tell.
Shoes other than high heels shouldn't affect the slides & there's no requirement to take them off.
'high heels off' is a required call drummed in during regular QF evac training (tech crew do the same training incidently). It gets shouted out with monotonous regularity while you're waiting for the slide to inflate.
I'd find it difficult to believe (though not impossible, I suppose) that all of the door primaries omitted this. I'd find it much easier to believe that some pax just didn't hear it in the commotion, or heard it & ignored it. Time will tell.
Shoes other than high heels shouldn't affect the slides & there's no requirement to take them off.
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Love a pic of the F/O heading down the chute with the extinguisher (and no doubt the seniority list).... Amazing what F/O's will want to be seen to be doing when there's a potential LHS cremation in the offing.
The First Officer was doing EXACTLY what the procedures dictate, and good on him for that!
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Hudson, severe foot injuries are an unfortunate byproduct of the necessity to preserve the integrity of the slides.
The aircraft was definately a -400 although some of the news footage used file images of a -200.
Pulling out the Perf Manual, even at a slightly heavier weights (for unburnt holding fuel) normal autobrakes shouldn't put the temps up too high. Even max manual is about mid-range (5-6), on a scale of 9. And the brake cooling chart doesn't allocate for reverser use at all!
It's a big call, but if someone says 'fire' and there's no tenders around (it'll take them 3 minutes to get there), there aren't many alternatives...
Hope the FO (and everyone else) gets better soon!
Lancer
The aircraft was definately a -400 although some of the news footage used file images of a -200.
Pulling out the Perf Manual, even at a slightly heavier weights (for unburnt holding fuel) normal autobrakes shouldn't put the temps up too high. Even max manual is about mid-range (5-6), on a scale of 9. And the brake cooling chart doesn't allocate for reverser use at all!
It's a big call, but if someone says 'fire' and there's no tenders around (it'll take them 3 minutes to get there), there aren't many alternatives...
Hope the FO (and everyone else) gets better soon!
Lancer
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Whilst we do our Monday morning quarterbacking on this one, add in the following: Smoke from the burning brakes enters the air conditioning system via the APU. So the captain has cockpit indications of high brake temps, the ground crew says there is smoke and flames from the brakes AND we now have acrid burning smells in the airconditioning system. Definitely time to go.
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"Even if they weren't, pulling the fire switches during the evac. checklist depressurizes hydraulics so the flaps remain where they were left. "
Are all fire handles pulled during an evac, Wastegate? If the APU was kept running, the main engine fire handles would have only stopped pressure coming from the engine-driven hydraulic pumps. In this case, you still could have extended the flaps using pnuematic/electric power from the APU (which would have been started up when the aircraft turned off the runway) or, failing that, by electrics from the Ground Power Unit (if it had already been plugged in at the gate). Extending flaps with vehicles/personnel around would have probably been more hazardous, however.
"By comparison, on the 767, the inboard spoilers auto - retract when the overwing exits are opened, so I recall !!"
Correct. However, the 747-400 inboard spoilers appear to be well outboard of the off-wing slide (see pic below). In any case, the spoilers should have been down at the gate.
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~b744er/KALtail2.jpg
Regards.
Q.
Are all fire handles pulled during an evac, Wastegate? If the APU was kept running, the main engine fire handles would have only stopped pressure coming from the engine-driven hydraulic pumps. In this case, you still could have extended the flaps using pnuematic/electric power from the APU (which would have been started up when the aircraft turned off the runway) or, failing that, by electrics from the Ground Power Unit (if it had already been plugged in at the gate). Extending flaps with vehicles/personnel around would have probably been more hazardous, however.
"By comparison, on the 767, the inboard spoilers auto - retract when the overwing exits are opened, so I recall !!"
Correct. However, the 747-400 inboard spoilers appear to be well outboard of the off-wing slide (see pic below). In any case, the spoilers should have been down at the gate.
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~b744er/KALtail2.jpg
Regards.
Q.
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As a matter of interest, what does the 767 (QF procedure) do for either wheel well fire on the ground(obvioulsy nil fire fighting ability from aircraft), and secondly, is there a checklist/action for BRAKE TEMP warning light? (As far as I am aware there is no BRAKE TEMP EICAS and therefore no checklist or procedure, other than monitor the Brake Temp lights 1-9 and therefore adjusting turn around time according to published charts)
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There is a Brake Temp EICAS message for the -400 but the checklist only involves action if in flight. On the ground, it's just a cooling off period.
Requiring the extention the flaps would seem a bit impractical considering the wide variety of scenarios where you may have to jump out in a hurry. It would take over 20 seconds of your evac time away, and there may not be hyraulics for it anyway (or any wheels, or the wing at all, or...) One would hope the slides are designed to operate correctly with the flaps up!
Requiring the extention the flaps would seem a bit impractical considering the wide variety of scenarios where you may have to jump out in a hurry. It would take over 20 seconds of your evac time away, and there may not be hyraulics for it anyway (or any wheels, or the wing at all, or...) One would hope the slides are designed to operate correctly with the flaps up!
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Traffic. Mate, instead of running down a bloke who did his job to the letter, why don't you tell us all exactly what the FO SHOULD have done. Please! We all want to hear your incredible wisdom.
Gees I'm sick of the smart arses that pop up here....
Gees I'm sick of the smart arses that pop up here....