Am I dreaming or have I seen all this before ?
From memory, in those days only Brisbane, Cairns & Hamilton Is. had an international DME, Townsville had a Tacan.
Stuff-all updating north of BN.
Still, that's no excuse for lack of situational awareness, but certainly a factor.
I seem to recall the TN 737 incident was a MEL based crew...they rarely venured north of BNE..??
Stuff-all updating north of BN.
Still, that's no excuse for lack of situational awareness, but certainly a factor.
I seem to recall the TN 737 incident was a MEL based crew...they rarely venured north of BNE..??
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Seems this thread is headed the way of the majority of threads in D&G. What is it about us Aussies that makes an intelligent discussion without resorting to abuse so unusual?
Ferris, I thought your question was a reasonable one, given the qualification you put on it. I will hazard a guess in reply, and as an ATC with 19 years local experience but a non-pilot I leave myself wide open to those who say my opinion is worth nought.
In doing so I am also accepting the reports I have seen of the 1989 incident as truth. In that incident, a circling approach off a DME arrival from the south was being made when the tower lost visual contact with the aircraft as it disappeared behind cloud and drizzle. When the ATC next saw the aircraft it was about 1 nm west of the field still descending. I speculate not as to its altitude; those figures will be in a report somewhere, but I know the controller involved was alarmed and the description he gave me using local references was scary.
The Bruce Highway out of the centre of Mackay, known locally as Nebo Road, is a brightly lit dual carriageway, fully built-up on both sides with a large number of motels, shops and four sets of traffic lights in about three kilometres. When it reaches the southern outskirts of the city at the last set of traffic lights, the road veers left by a matter of 10 degrees or so, becoming known as Broadsound Road, and the lighting and traffic density reduce. It is still the Bruce Highway, Highway 1 to Brisbane.
It is my understanding that in 1989 the TN 737 was lined up on Broadsound Road, which points about 190M. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have spoken to more than one local pilot who has expressed a lack of surprise at the initial mistake in crappy conditions. The simple act of journalising, or seeing what you expect to see, means the fact that the lights you are lining up are 50 deg out of alignment and there's no Vasis to be seen can apparently be easily overlooked. I imagine that is one of the reasons why two crew are required.
But I digress from your question. It is MY UNEDUCATED OPINION that in conditions that provide for visual contact to be made off the VOR/DME, given the volume of vehicular traffic, I cannot conceive of a two pilot jet crew getting below about 300ft on Nebo Road without major, massive mental alarms going off in both crew members. Terrain within the area described is not a factor.
Broadsound Road is more problematic.
I hope this helps. I'm trying to be informative without second-guessing the enquiry.
Kaptin M, I'll leave the actual ATI conditions for 89 Steps to describe should he wish to, since I wasn't there.
I believe the discussion about DME to be immaterial. MK did have both DME's in those days, and the difference in final alignment at the minima was negligible.
Ferris, I thought your question was a reasonable one, given the qualification you put on it. I will hazard a guess in reply, and as an ATC with 19 years local experience but a non-pilot I leave myself wide open to those who say my opinion is worth nought.
In doing so I am also accepting the reports I have seen of the 1989 incident as truth. In that incident, a circling approach off a DME arrival from the south was being made when the tower lost visual contact with the aircraft as it disappeared behind cloud and drizzle. When the ATC next saw the aircraft it was about 1 nm west of the field still descending. I speculate not as to its altitude; those figures will be in a report somewhere, but I know the controller involved was alarmed and the description he gave me using local references was scary.
The Bruce Highway out of the centre of Mackay, known locally as Nebo Road, is a brightly lit dual carriageway, fully built-up on both sides with a large number of motels, shops and four sets of traffic lights in about three kilometres. When it reaches the southern outskirts of the city at the last set of traffic lights, the road veers left by a matter of 10 degrees or so, becoming known as Broadsound Road, and the lighting and traffic density reduce. It is still the Bruce Highway, Highway 1 to Brisbane.
It is my understanding that in 1989 the TN 737 was lined up on Broadsound Road, which points about 190M. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have spoken to more than one local pilot who has expressed a lack of surprise at the initial mistake in crappy conditions. The simple act of journalising, or seeing what you expect to see, means the fact that the lights you are lining up are 50 deg out of alignment and there's no Vasis to be seen can apparently be easily overlooked. I imagine that is one of the reasons why two crew are required.
But I digress from your question. It is MY UNEDUCATED OPINION that in conditions that provide for visual contact to be made off the VOR/DME, given the volume of vehicular traffic, I cannot conceive of a two pilot jet crew getting below about 300ft on Nebo Road without major, massive mental alarms going off in both crew members. Terrain within the area described is not a factor.
Broadsound Road is more problematic.
I hope this helps. I'm trying to be informative without second-guessing the enquiry.
Kaptin M, I'll leave the actual ATI conditions for 89 Steps to describe should he wish to, since I wasn't there.
I believe the discussion about DME to be immaterial. MK did have both DME's in those days, and the difference in final alignment at the minima was negligible.
I dont know about you,but one of the first things I do as I become visual is check the VASIS.
I trust the Crew realised early on that they had no VASIS and carried out the missed approach
.
Safe flying, hoss
I trust the Crew realised early on that they had no VASIS and carried out the missed approach
.Safe flying, hoss
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fruitloop... at the risk of drifting off-topic here, I remember a few things about March 90. I was 21 months away from my penultimate go-finish at the time, flogging around in a C90 and doing a bit of instructing on the side. I take it that you're referring to something else tho, so I'll need a hint. Probably had too much spaak since then... 
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Wish I'd only done 30 night approaches into Mackay...... Probably managed that in a year....
Agree wholeheartedly with those that suggest lining up on the road is unlikely off the 14 VOR/DME, but a left hand circle from the south, now that's a different matter.
Problem is that the image of the Nebo Rd looks far more seductive as a runway than the runway itself does, from two thirds of the way around base. About the right distance, just the heading is 50 degrees short.
No problem I hear you say - my situational awareness will tell me it can't be the runway, because it's too soon and on the wrong heading. Yeah, well, it's the fifth sector of the duty day, it's night, MBZ, forecast a bit out, misty rain, scud close to the minima, tailwind around base, it's a black hole at the best of times. Your tippy-toeing the forty-odd tons of alloy round the turn, sweating the RoD and seeking that image of the promised land out of those tank-commander slots they call windscreens.
Then, just a little bit early, up pops a match for the image you've been seeking - a double row of bright yellow-white lights, a mile and a half long and about where you expected in the windscreen. If the remaining 5% of your mental capacity isn't able to to scan further around towards the left pillar, and connect with the other dim, double row of lights that is nowhere near as inviting, then as Kap M so adroitly puts it "Come in spinner..."
Have, on the odd occasion flying, training and checking watched some get suckered off momentarily, reduce AoB, then realise the mistake as the picture became less tilted, roll back in and carry on. No real harm done, and a valuable lesson learned. However, get wings level and hold for 5 secs, now it's looking grim....
The best defence seems to be make it a specific item in the brief, and have the support pilot check the ND HDG, and help out with appropriate advice. Map shift might be a factor, if you do your BWC that way, if the IRS's have some residual, then a VOR/DME update close in may still not get the map spot on...
There have probably been one or two more incidents in the past than have been described here.
Increase the intensity of the RWY lights, get some approach lighting, encourage the local louts to pop off the sodium lamps with their sluggy's....
Agree wholeheartedly with those that suggest lining up on the road is unlikely off the 14 VOR/DME, but a left hand circle from the south, now that's a different matter.
Problem is that the image of the Nebo Rd looks far more seductive as a runway than the runway itself does, from two thirds of the way around base. About the right distance, just the heading is 50 degrees short.
No problem I hear you say - my situational awareness will tell me it can't be the runway, because it's too soon and on the wrong heading. Yeah, well, it's the fifth sector of the duty day, it's night, MBZ, forecast a bit out, misty rain, scud close to the minima, tailwind around base, it's a black hole at the best of times. Your tippy-toeing the forty-odd tons of alloy round the turn, sweating the RoD and seeking that image of the promised land out of those tank-commander slots they call windscreens.
Then, just a little bit early, up pops a match for the image you've been seeking - a double row of bright yellow-white lights, a mile and a half long and about where you expected in the windscreen. If the remaining 5% of your mental capacity isn't able to to scan further around towards the left pillar, and connect with the other dim, double row of lights that is nowhere near as inviting, then as Kap M so adroitly puts it "Come in spinner..."
Have, on the odd occasion flying, training and checking watched some get suckered off momentarily, reduce AoB, then realise the mistake as the picture became less tilted, roll back in and carry on. No real harm done, and a valuable lesson learned. However, get wings level and hold for 5 secs, now it's looking grim....
The best defence seems to be make it a specific item in the brief, and have the support pilot check the ND HDG, and help out with appropriate advice. Map shift might be a factor, if you do your BWC that way, if the IRS's have some residual, then a VOR/DME update close in may still not get the map spot on...
There have probably been one or two more incidents in the past than have been described here.
Increase the intensity of the RWY lights, get some approach lighting, encourage the local louts to pop off the sodium lamps with their sluggy's....
Zone 5,
Fair enough,but I still ask the Crew "where were you in relation to the VASIS?
". The crew should have been aware of the VASIS and its serviceability status. If there are 4 white lights in a row next to (perpendicular to) the highway I retract my comments
.
Safe flying, hoss
Fair enough,but I still ask the Crew "where were you in relation to the VASIS?
". The crew should have been aware of the VASIS and its serviceability status. If there are 4 white lights in a row next to (perpendicular to) the highway I retract my comments .Safe flying, hoss
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
hoss, there are those days when you don't simply pop out of the cloud and go straight into visual conditions - re-read Z5's scenario for an accurate account of the way a non-precision approach unfolds.
With low level scud/mist, etc., it's quite possible that the vasis may be obscured, or that you have still not turned sufficiently far enough onto finals for it to be visual.
The guys (and gals) operating in the front seats of airline aircraft have been chosen from the best that was available, and are regularly trained and checked to standards set by the Government regualtory authority - although Mr and Mrs MacDonald's 30 years of flying around the world may well exceed that of ANY pilot!
That this is at LEAST the third time Mt Nebo Road has been like a light to a moth for airlines must tell us SOMETHING Here is a CFIT waiting to happen!
Yes, thanks to Mackay ATC, a possible incident/accident was AGAIN averted.
3 times lucky!
It's past time that something was done about it.
(In the meantime, all the aces who have carried out x number of approaches, and who are all too ready to let us know that THEY would NEVER make this error in judgement, should immediately contact QANTAS and Virgin Blue, to let them know of their immediate availability )
With low level scud/mist, etc., it's quite possible that the vasis may be obscured, or that you have still not turned sufficiently far enough onto finals for it to be visual.
The guys (and gals) operating in the front seats of airline aircraft have been chosen from the best that was available, and are regularly trained and checked to standards set by the Government regualtory authority - although Mr and Mrs MacDonald's 30 years of flying around the world may well exceed that of ANY pilot!
That this is at LEAST the third time Mt Nebo Road has been like a light to a moth for airlines must tell us SOMETHING Here is a CFIT waiting to happen!
Yes, thanks to Mackay ATC, a possible incident/accident was AGAIN averted.
3 times lucky!
It's past time that something was done about it.
(In the meantime, all the aces who have carried out x number of approaches, and who are all too ready to let us know that THEY would NEVER make this error in judgement, should immediately contact QANTAS and Virgin Blue, to let them know of their immediate availability
)
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Hoss,
I'm with Zone 5 here, I think it's unreasonable for us to pontificate from the comfort of some kind of stationary chair, as to what the crew should have done.
Rather we should learn a lesson, that circling approaches in poor wx and/or viz and/or at night are not a good idea, and perhaps take a little extra time to manage a RWY approach where possible.
As for the status of the VASIS, I still pass my medical without cheating and without corrective spactacles. I still also have trouble picking out what the VASIS is indicating in some lighting conditions, until I get relatively close to it.
Rather we should learn a lesson, that circling approaches in poor wx and/or viz and/or at night are not a good idea, and perhaps take a little extra time to manage a RWY approach where possible.
As for the status of the VASIS, I still pass my medical without cheating and without corrective spactacles. I still also have trouble picking out what the VASIS is indicating in some lighting conditions, until I get relatively close to it.
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And those frickin PAPI's are a pain in the arse. From 5 miles I have trouble pickin' the reds from the whites, and I still pass my eye test too.
At least the VASIS gives you a "diagrammatical" (for want of better words) indication and can be interpreted more easily from far further out........
At least the VASIS gives you a "diagrammatical" (for want of better words) indication and can be interpreted more easily from far further out........
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M tks for the offer but we already have too many ACES here at DJ, just ask them. I suspect QF have the same problem. People who criticise have little or no comprehension of what REAL bad wx approaches are about and the sometimes inexplicable circumstances we find ourselves in. No amount of briefing can prepare for every possibility so experience and common sense play a big part in the final decision making process. These offest approaches are a challenge at times to say the least and with a cross wind and poor vis require extra vigilance. Several 727's in the 80's have lined up on ANZAC hwy in ADL from a 05 approach only to be told to go around by the twr. It can and will happen to anyone given the right conditions.
The GPS rwy aligned approaches will hopefully see an end to all this non-precision app rubbish. Bring on the 21st century pls!
The GPS rwy aligned approaches will hopefully see an end to all this non-precision app rubbish. Bring on the 21st century pls!
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Kaptin M, I cant help but think you were having a bit of a dig at me with your last comment - and if it's warranted that's fair enough, I don't mind. I am certainly not claiming to be any "ace".
Maybe I should have spelled my point out a bit clearer for some, however I was simply stating that if YOU STAY ON THE 14 VOR/DME APP the RWY will be almost straight ahead at the mimima, with a slight left/right to align on centreline. Maybe Bob Hoover could find Nebo Rd with a loop from 400ft, and a 60deg Hdg change while rolling out.
However if you 'think' you are visual at 4 to 5NM out - and break off the Approach, then you have some prominantly lit roads come into play, and hence the situation we are discussing.
I am no expert, and not criticising anyone, however this is the method I adopted after the 89 incident. (staying on the VOR/DME until the minima). Its called learning from others experiences, and you Kaptin should know about that, you seem to have been around long enough!
Maybe I should have spelled my point out a bit clearer for some, however I was simply stating that if YOU STAY ON THE 14 VOR/DME APP the RWY will be almost straight ahead at the mimima, with a slight left/right to align on centreline. Maybe Bob Hoover could find Nebo Rd with a loop from 400ft, and a 60deg Hdg change while rolling out.
However if you 'think' you are visual at 4 to 5NM out - and break off the Approach, then you have some prominantly lit roads come into play, and hence the situation we are discussing.
I am no expert, and not criticising anyone, however this is the method I adopted after the 89 incident. (staying on the VOR/DME until the minima). Its called learning from others experiences, and you Kaptin should know about that, you seem to have been around long enough!
Just Binos
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All I want to say is that PPRuNe didn't exist in 1989, and this thread is a great example of why things are better now that it does.
Remember that pilots of all levels of experience are reading this; some of them may never fly into YBMK, but we can hope that a new generation of pilots and, for that matter, ATC's will learn lessons from this that can be applied anywhere else.
Abuse and self-aggrandisement tend to be ignored. Keep your input relevant and everybody gains.
Carry on, I'm learning.
Remember that pilots of all levels of experience are reading this; some of them may never fly into YBMK, but we can hope that a new generation of pilots and, for that matter, ATC's will learn lessons from this that can be applied anywhere else.
Abuse and self-aggrandisement tend to be ignored. Keep your input relevant and everybody gains.
Carry on, I'm learning.
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Very interesting thread guys, pleasure to read.
Hoss, wasn't actually thinking about you when I wrote my post, just wanted to share my experiences at this location.
After long enough doing this you begin to see circling approaches in RPT jets a bit like navigating using triple position line astro fixes - a certain amount of inherent satisfaction when you get it right, but in this day and age - why bother? The quickest, most economical approach is the one that doesn't require a miss off the bottom. (or worse...)
Roll on straight in precision runway approaches everywhere, LNAV/VNAV with GPS. Yeah!!
cheers
Hoss, wasn't actually thinking about you when I wrote my post, just wanted to share my experiences at this location.
After long enough doing this you begin to see circling approaches in RPT jets a bit like navigating using triple position line astro fixes - a certain amount of inherent satisfaction when you get it right, but in this day and age - why bother? The quickest, most economical approach is the one that doesn't require a miss off the bottom. (or worse...)
Roll on straight in precision runway approaches everywhere, LNAV/VNAV with GPS. Yeah!!
cheers
No worries Zone 5.
Actually I agree with you about the reality of the circle-to-land scenario.
I was just stirring things up a bit playing 'Devils Advocate'
.
Safe flying, hoss
ps. yep, bring on the GPS/NPA's with LNAV and VNAV
Actually I agree with you about the reality of the circle-to-land scenario.
I was just stirring things up a bit playing 'Devils Advocate'
.Safe flying, hoss
ps. yep, bring on the GPS/NPA's with LNAV and VNAV
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CCY SAM,
You have been able to since 18Oct2000. Read CAO 40.2.1 Section 13a. You just have to have a jet that can do it. Of course, the current GPS NPAs are actually almost more difficult to do than a VOR/DME. The Foxtrot waypoint totally messes up would otherwise be a beautiful way of getting on the ground (oops runway).
Another thought: Given that the 14 VOR/DME starts from the north (obviously)/goes over the top to the north (17 track miles, 3 minutes at $100 a minute...), a far more commercially viable option (if coming from the south) is to do a 32 VOR/DME (or DME Arrival) then circle from the minima onto 14. Much less track miles! Especially if the wx isn't too bad...
So now we have command/crew judgment having to decide the relative merits of each option. I hope nobody will support "requiring" 10 mile finals for all approaches, but then again, the troops have to make the right call about the relative risk of circling, at night.
Also "Terminator" Winstun's idea of lead-in lights is a good one.
You have been able to since 18Oct2000. Read CAO 40.2.1 Section 13a. You just have to have a jet that can do it. Of course, the current GPS NPAs are actually almost more difficult to do than a VOR/DME. The Foxtrot waypoint totally messes up would otherwise be a beautiful way of getting on the ground (oops runway).
Another thought: Given that the 14 VOR/DME starts from the north (obviously)/goes over the top to the north (17 track miles, 3 minutes at $100 a minute...), a far more commercially viable option (if coming from the south) is to do a 32 VOR/DME (or DME Arrival) then circle from the minima onto 14. Much less track miles! Especially if the wx isn't too bad...
So now we have command/crew judgment having to decide the relative merits of each option. I hope nobody will support "requiring" 10 mile finals for all approaches, but then again, the troops have to make the right call about the relative risk of circling, at night.
Also "Terminator" Winstun's idea of lead-in lights is a good one.
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Well, I gotta tell ya custard...
I support 10nm/3000ft finals in high speed jet transport a/c on all approaches...
all professional pilots do...
If you don't, well, I guess you ain't too professional!!
I support 10nm/3000ft finals in high speed jet transport a/c on all approaches...
all professional pilots do...
If you don't, well, I guess you ain't too professional!!
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The experienced (A) pass on their experiences to the less experienced (B) making them more experienced (C) . On route checks we were told about the Nebo Rd trap at MKY .Night arrivals were often after the tower had gone home (affordable safety) .Current QLink arrivals must be during twr ops at night with alert ATC (D) on duty.
The new breed have not talked to A and have consequently not become C remaining B ,thank heavens for D.
If someone had not dicked Smith before he dicked us then there would not have been a D.
Is there a lesson here somewhere?
The new breed have not talked to A and have consequently not become C remaining B ,thank heavens for D.
If someone had not dicked Smith before he dicked us then there would not have been a D.
Is there a lesson here somewhere?
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Amos 2,
I suspect more professional than you'll ever be, sunshine, after a response like that.
BTW, how many NPAs with Circles have you done in your high speed jet transport?
I suspect more professional than you'll ever be, sunshine, after a response like that.
BTW, how many NPAs with Circles have you done in your high speed jet transport?