Trouble on QF flight from MEL-Tassie??
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Mr Seatback,
Excellent comments and I do not discount the efforts of these individuals as anything less than superb. My comments were only, and always, directed to some of this repetitive, pouting, stroking pat-on-the back behaviour. Some here regard it as passionate, but I find tiring and nauseating. Well aware of fight/flight instincts of animals (I have a degree in this field). I am quite aware of the shock syndrome, certainly this was the hijackers decisive weapon in 9/11. However, humans have extensive learning capacity, and i would suggest that POST 9/11 : 'group 2 - freeze in shock' would certainly be in the great minority, crew or pax on any aircraft anywhere. Maybe a study could be conducted with 'fake hijaking operations' to confirm expected public reactions. Kaptin makes wild assertions that I am youthful, male (before I confirmed it), never operated in a warzone, never saved a life, and without 5 ATPLs. He has seems to have some delusion that I give much weight to his drivel. Or care.
Excellent comments and I do not discount the efforts of these individuals as anything less than superb. My comments were only, and always, directed to some of this repetitive, pouting, stroking pat-on-the back behaviour. Some here regard it as passionate, but I find tiring and nauseating. Well aware of fight/flight instincts of animals (I have a degree in this field). I am quite aware of the shock syndrome, certainly this was the hijackers decisive weapon in 9/11. However, humans have extensive learning capacity, and i would suggest that POST 9/11 : 'group 2 - freeze in shock' would certainly be in the great minority, crew or pax on any aircraft anywhere. Maybe a study could be conducted with 'fake hijaking operations' to confirm expected public reactions. Kaptin makes wild assertions that I am youthful, male (before I confirmed it), never operated in a warzone, never saved a life, and without 5 ATPLs. He has seems to have some delusion that I give much weight to his drivel. Or care.
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How about you both bury the hatchet and agree to disagree...? Or is this online 'war of words' too entertaining for you both to deny? 
At least we all agree on one thing - the crew did a great job, nothing can detract from that.
At least we all agree on one thing - the crew did a great job, nothing can detract from that.
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I must admit, I have seen enough back patting now as well. It was well deserved however.
What Winston has said about behaviour in his last post I believe is correct,and is an interesting point, that fight/flight can be over-ridden by a conditioned response, and that post 11Th of the 9Th, the conditioned response would tend toward fight. This WAS clearly demonstrated the other day. I could only imagine how the experiment design would go to empirically prove these observations though!!
Nice post also Mr Seatback, it's people like you who put the service back in to customer service.
What Winston has said about behaviour in his last post I believe is correct,and is an interesting point, that fight/flight can be over-ridden by a conditioned response, and that post 11Th of the 9Th, the conditioned response would tend toward fight. This WAS clearly demonstrated the other day. I could only imagine how the experiment design would go to empirically prove these observations though!!
Nice post also Mr Seatback, it's people like you who put the service back in to customer service.
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I wasn't alluding to a 'controlled response'. POST 9/11 , terminating hijack attempts is the NATURAL response. People now know a hijack means dying (even if it may not all times be so). I think many here underestimate the air travelling public. If I am a pax experiencing a hijack attempt, second number one, I will be in attack motion. I hope you folks are right behind me.
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Smartass. But not very smart at all for still failing to grasp the basic fact I have already outlined. That there will now be a NATURAL GROUP response from a majority of pax to any future hijack attempts. Doubtful that hijackers would have a gun to the temple of every partner (or even close) of every pax.
But to answer your question. In my case, if I had a wife, without question, YES. She is gonna die anyway.
But to answer your question. In my case, if I had a wife, without question, YES. She is gonna die anyway.
Evertonian
(I bet she's the one holding the gun!) 
So, Winstun, you tackling the hijackers (and I agree that people now have the incentive to have a go at the hijackers) would not be heroic, by your reckoning? A fait acompli so to speak?
If, therefore, you tackled the hijacker & I went down the back, opened the door & jumped, we'd both be of equal standing as we both knew we were a fair chance of dying. Am I reading you right?
So, Winstun, you tackling the hijackers (and I agree that people now have the incentive to have a go at the hijackers) would not be heroic, by your reckoning? A fait acompli so to speak?
If, therefore, you tackled the hijacker & I went down the back, opened the door & jumped, we'd both be of equal standing as we both knew we were a fair chance of dying. Am I reading you right?
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
..or if the hijacker's intent was merely to try to negotiate/blackmail, YOU, Dunstan have now spooked the guy into killing Amos' wife. ( I wonder if Winstun is still going to be of the same opinion when it's HIS head the hijacker is holding the gun (....or a needle and syringe, or sharpened stick (for the non-lateral thinkers).... to, and another Winstun is in "attack mode"...after all, "you're going to die anyway", aren't you Winstun)!!???
So Winstun, precisely what NEW facts have you presented to your "wider audience"?
Apart from your statement that you are THE man!
From some of the stuff you've spruked here, you sound exactly like the sort of gung-ho cowboy we DON'T want onboard, when some looney sticks his head up.
Had you been aboard the TAA DC9 that was hijacked out of Coolangatta some years back, it's almost CERTAIN that the hijacker WOULD have blown the Captain's head off with the shotgun he had, and killed everybody, rather than the successful conclusion in Brisbane, where ALL survived.
Edit or a needle and syringe, or sharpened stick,
So Winstun, precisely what NEW facts have you presented to your "wider audience"?
Apart from your statement that you are THE man!
If I am a pax experiencing a hijack attempt, second number one, I will be in attack motion.
Had you been aboard the TAA DC9 that was hijacked out of Coolangatta some years back, it's almost CERTAIN that the hijacker WOULD have blown the Captain's head off with the shotgun he had, and killed everybody, rather than the successful conclusion in Brisbane, where ALL survived.
Edit or a needle and syringe, or sharpened stick,
Last edited by Kaptin M; 1st Jun 2003 at 20:33.
Far be it from me to intrude, but this is an interesting thread. I have an ATPL but am not an airline pilot, don't have a degree, but have been a pax on a flight. (a few times)
I think the example of someone put a gun to anyones head is irrelevant in this context as supposedly these don't get onboard aircraft, they weren't evident in the 11/9 scenario.
Mr Seatback's post was excellent and Winstun was quick to acknowledge this. I see merit both of these poster's comments and certainly don't disagree with Winstun's general thrust of over exuberance on the part of the media in reporting this event.
Some posters are playing the man not the ball.
Carry on.
I think the example of someone put a gun to anyones head is irrelevant in this context as supposedly these don't get onboard aircraft, they weren't evident in the 11/9 scenario.
Mr Seatback's post was excellent and Winstun was quick to acknowledge this. I see merit both of these poster's comments and certainly don't disagree with Winstun's general thrust of over exuberance on the part of the media in reporting this event.
Some posters are playing the man not the ball.
Carry on.
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Some of you are all getting a little pedantic here, but here goes.
Buster, no me (and the others) tackling the hijackers would not be 'heroic', a good job or attempt I would accept. If you went down the back and jumped - or everyone did nothing- I would say you were almost guaranteed to die. I also say that myself and the wider public will be attacking the hijacker(s) and we will all have a more than fair chance of living. I agree with Chronic Snoozer guns not really relevant in the context I have been talking on, however I am sure it is (anything is) possible. Kaptin, I am certainly not a cowboy but I WILL NOT relent to any hijackers, and yes (like most) prepared to sacrifice my life, daughter if I had one, captain, others, etc..to save the many. It is the price we pay these days with rife suicide terrorism, negotiation cannot be contemplated. POST 9/11 IT'S A DIFFERENT GAME Hijacker's intent will not be recognized as anything other than a suicide/murder attempt. We, with our quick group pax efforts + cabin crew awareness training + new age cockpit doors expect to contain the threat to protect the flightcrew. It's all we got. Sure, in retrospect it may be found a hijack situation not to have been a suicide/mass murder threat with some life lost in consequence. But we can not risk that assumption now. The risk (of losing everyone) is too real and too great.
Buster, no me (and the others) tackling the hijackers would not be 'heroic', a good job or attempt I would accept. If you went down the back and jumped - or everyone did nothing- I would say you were almost guaranteed to die. I also say that myself and the wider public will be attacking the hijacker(s) and we will all have a more than fair chance of living. I agree with Chronic Snoozer guns not really relevant in the context I have been talking on, however I am sure it is (anything is) possible. Kaptin, I am certainly not a cowboy but I WILL NOT relent to any hijackers, and yes (like most) prepared to sacrifice my life, daughter if I had one, captain, others, etc..to save the many. It is the price we pay these days with rife suicide terrorism, negotiation cannot be contemplated. POST 9/11 IT'S A DIFFERENT GAME Hijacker's intent will not be recognized as anything other than a suicide/murder attempt. We, with our quick group pax efforts + cabin crew awareness training + new age cockpit doors expect to contain the threat to protect the flightcrew. It's all we got. Sure, in retrospect it may be found a hijack situation not to have been a suicide/mass murder threat with some life lost in consequence. But we can not risk that assumption now. The risk (of losing everyone) is too real and too great.
Nunc est bibendum
So those that were awarded the VC for gallantry and heroism in the direct contact with the enemy in combat operations didn't deserve to be labelled hero's because if they did nothing they all would have died and so they were only protecting their own backsides. That is your logic isn't it?
Geez. Fight or flight. To fight against a bloke who is better armed and more prepared is heroic. It doesn't matter what the possible outcome of failure is.
Here is a couple of definitions for you.
They certainly showed courage and strength and were noble in the aftermath so that fits the bill.
On this count too they more than fit the bill.
Pedantic? Maybe but at least the rest of us give credit where it's due. I hope if ever a flight I'm crewing has the same thing happens that the crew will react as heroically as these guys did.
Geez. Fight or flight. To fight against a bloke who is better armed and more prepared is heroic. It doesn't matter what the possible outcome of failure is.
Here is a couple of definitions for you.
A man distinguished by exceptional courage and nobility and strength.
Someone who fights for a cause.
Pedantic? Maybe but at least the rest of us give credit where it's due. I hope if ever a flight I'm crewing has the same thing happens that the crew will react as heroically as these guys did.
I hope that QF look after the crew, the FA's in particular, offering and providing what ever counselling is needed. I can imagine they will be quite jumpy for some time. Its not a normal thing to go to work and be faced with that sort of unexpected, un anticipated crisis situation.
I was most shocked at the wound on Denises face, my god, less that an inch from loosing an eye.
I just wonder if the outcome would have been different had it been an all female cabin crew, some of the girls are quite petit in stature. This is in no way intended to be a negative comment on the ability, effectiveness etc of female FA's what so ever. And to think CASA is trying to REDUCE the numbers of cabin crew where ever they can. Sheer folly.
There is no shame about being passionate about what you do, your job, your industry, your airline. The 'my cockpit" comment from the Purser is typical of people who are passionate about their job. The industry neeeds more people like that, in particular , more people like EWL.
I was most shocked at the wound on Denises face, my god, less that an inch from loosing an eye.
I just wonder if the outcome would have been different had it been an all female cabin crew, some of the girls are quite petit in stature. This is in no way intended to be a negative comment on the ability, effectiveness etc of female FA's what so ever. And to think CASA is trying to REDUCE the numbers of cabin crew where ever they can. Sheer folly.
There is no shame about being passionate about what you do, your job, your industry, your airline. The 'my cockpit" comment from the Purser is typical of people who are passionate about their job. The industry neeeds more people like that, in particular , more people like EWL.
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Ozgrade, yes I would expect the crew to be looked after particularly well. I say give them all a 1 month 5 star holiday anywhere on the airline network. What you mention about different outcomes with a different crew. Well that's life ain't it? There could be a set of hardened black belt stewards, a geriatric grey panther pax set, two dozen highly trained middle-east suicide attackers. Lots of combinations, lots of outcomes. We can only all do our best. Whether that be kicking their ass (in my case) or freezing in shock or whatever. But Keg, I do not think you should have to HOPE the crew would react as heroically....You should EXPECT (demand) that most of the pax will react naturally. BECAUSE frankly we are angry, mad, ferocious, pissed off and not gonna put up with this hijack sh*t. I think many here underestimate the wider public feeling. Keg I take your point about how people like to recognize/be recognized for heroic type behaviour. In a moderate manner I accept. Personally, I don't go for it. Many of these suicide terrorist I expect would liken themselves to your hero definitions.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Based on ACTUAL hijackings, pre and post 911, the objectives were usually politically motivated and haven't resulted in the loss of all lives on board as a result of deliberately crashing the aeroplane.
However, 911 has made us all aware that that is the most extreme outcome possible.
The "old" strategy was to accede to the hijacker's demands to AVOID loss of life during the ordeal, and it worked in almost all cases generally resulting in the capture of the hijacker(s) as well.
Winstun's "theory" of allowing a hijacker to murder a hostage (or 2 or 3)..... "BECAUSE frankly we are angry, mad, ferocious, pissed off and not gonna put up with this hijack sh*t.".... is unintelligent, irresponsible, and too gung-ho.
In Greg and Denise's case they read the situation, and took control BEFORE a hostage scenario was allowed to develop.
Certainly the prime objective remains of having the aircraft remain solely under the control of the pilots, by restricting the hijacker to the cabin, until it can be landed.
That does NOT necessarily mean attacking the hijacker(s) when a resultant loss of life is a strong possibility.
However, 911 has made us all aware that that is the most extreme outcome possible.
The "old" strategy was to accede to the hijacker's demands to AVOID loss of life during the ordeal, and it worked in almost all cases generally resulting in the capture of the hijacker(s) as well.
Winstun's "theory" of allowing a hijacker to murder a hostage (or 2 or 3)..... "BECAUSE frankly we are angry, mad, ferocious, pissed off and not gonna put up with this hijack sh*t.".... is unintelligent, irresponsible, and too gung-ho.
In Greg and Denise's case they read the situation, and took control BEFORE a hostage scenario was allowed to develop.
Certainly the prime objective remains of having the aircraft remain solely under the control of the pilots, by restricting the hijacker to the cabin, until it can be landed.
That does NOT necessarily mean attacking the hijacker(s) when a resultant loss of life is a strong possibility.
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On the contrary. My theory is responsible. It is responsible that pax will accept sacrifice of some life with the potential to save most life. Even forgetting about the potential life lost on the ground The 'old' stategy does not work in the new age. These people had only a one 'amateur' individual to deal with. But serious trained professionals will not give you this TIME to 'read' the situation, as was the case in 9/11. This is their weapon. We can expect much more suicide action in the future. Certainly, a few seconds can be taken to assess your moves. But I think any hijackers should EXPECT that they will be attacked swiftly and completely irrespective of their intent. Let this be our clear message. I am concerned at some of the mindset here. Maybe a survey/study needs to be done on expected public reactions. If the general public are not sufficiently aware of their life risk in a hijack situation, we better educate them that they need to ACT or expect to die. There needs to be a school education program instituted worldwide on hijack threat and rapid response.
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To Greg, the Purser aboard that flight :
goodonyamate for a job well done! Greg and Denise were just doing their jobs. If that makes them heroes, then so be it.
There's not many jobs where you're in a confined space and some nutcase decides he's going to attack you with sharpened wooden pieces of wood. Greg and Denise did exactly what they've been taught to do in their ground schools and security training.. plus a bit of instinct and initiative for good measure.
Greg, your Ansett family is very proud of you.
However.... I was disgusted and mortified that QF allowed the crew to appear on TV and even answer press questions. What a disgraceful, low act - whatever happened to confidentiality? The crew should be counselled and assisted, not paraded around in front of media to be scrutinised and judged on their behaviour and wounds! I certainly hope that QF has gotten the whole crew proper psychological help in order for them to deal with their trauma.
And that's my two cents.
SG
goodonyamate for a job well done! Greg and Denise were just doing their jobs. If that makes them heroes, then so be it.
There's not many jobs where you're in a confined space and some nutcase decides he's going to attack you with sharpened wooden pieces of wood. Greg and Denise did exactly what they've been taught to do in their ground schools and security training.. plus a bit of instinct and initiative for good measure.
Greg, your Ansett family is very proud of you.
However.... I was disgusted and mortified that QF allowed the crew to appear on TV and even answer press questions. What a disgraceful, low act - whatever happened to confidentiality? The crew should be counselled and assisted, not paraded around in front of media to be scrutinised and judged on their behaviour and wounds! I certainly hope that QF has gotten the whole crew proper psychological help in order for them to deal with their trauma.
And that's my two cents.
SG
Evertonian
Yes, we need more ex AN staff in the air it seems!!!
Winstun, if you wouldn't mind just answering my question, I'll try to get off your back. BTW, just curious, not pedantic.
Winstun, if you wouldn't mind just answering my question, I'll try to get off your back. BTW, just curious, not pedantic.
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I'd do this...I'd do that. Give me a break.Unless tested you people are all dreaming about your own (in)abilites.
Cut the cr@p, you sound like idiots.
These people did, thank god.