Trouble on QF flight from MEL-Tassie??
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All well and good for Geoff Dixon to be sprouting off about airport security and flight deck doors but we all seem to forget about the "little" Qantaslink flyers Eastern Australia Airlines and Sunstate Airlines.
Lets just ask our fearless leader what type of security there is at regional airports for the flying public, pilots and solo operator cabin crew aboard Dash 8 aircraft and wait for a response!
Ahhh.......is that the sound of back pedalling I can hear!!
Yes passenger and baggage security screening is vitally important, but are 36 or 50 pax in a Dash less important? Look at our regional airports and you'll have the answer to that one.
Lets just ask our fearless leader what type of security there is at regional airports for the flying public, pilots and solo operator cabin crew aboard Dash 8 aircraft and wait for a response!
Ahhh.......is that the sound of back pedalling I can hear!!
Yes passenger and baggage security screening is vitally important, but are 36 or 50 pax in a Dash less important? Look at our regional airports and you'll have the answer to that one.
What about Little Johnny's form! From today's SMH -
Come on Johnny, it's 2003 mate! Spose he still asks his chaufeurr to change the channel on the wireless!!!
TL
I think the bravery of the steward and hostess and the instantaneous reacton of the passengers has been fantastic
TL
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Eastcoasting...
When I heard Dixon talk about "hardening" flight deck doors on JETS I nearly choked
Don't know of any jets that go to his precious Wagga Wagga however.
When I do my Evil Empire sojourn
once or twice a month I see quite a few Cabin Crew heading upstairs for "security training" in M148. None from our precious Sunstate/Eastern, though. Airconnex have been going there for quite a while, so the course must work
Well done to the crew
I saw the male FA on telly this morning exhibiting clear signs of PTSD. I hope he (and his colleague) are being taken care of by the company.
I do believe us lowly turboprop crews will be given "security training" in the near future........
In the meantime, the crash axe is but a small stretch away.......
Winstun, pull your head in.
Don't know of any jets that go to his precious Wagga Wagga however.
When I do my Evil Empire sojourn
once or twice a month I see quite a few Cabin Crew heading upstairs for "security training" in M148. None from our precious Sunstate/Eastern, though. Airconnex have been going there for quite a while, so the course must work Well done to the crewI saw the male FA on telly this morning exhibiting clear signs of PTSD. I hope he (and his colleague) are being taken care of by the company.
I do believe us lowly turboprop crews will be given "security training" in the near future........
In the meantime, the crash axe is but a small stretch away.......
Winstun, pull your head in.
Eastwest Loco
This clowns comments are just as bad on other threads I have seen him on. He never has any constructive comments so lets all just ignore him. Like a bad smell he will just go away.
This clowns comments are just as bad on other threads I have seen him on. He never has any constructive comments so lets all just ignore him. Like a bad smell he will just go away.
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Thanks 404 for the heads up.
I had kind of figured his dropkick was PPruNe herpes. Erupting at the least convenient time and impossible to get rid of.
EWL
I had kind of figured his dropkick was PPruNe herpes. Erupting at the least convenient time and impossible to get rid of.
EWL
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404 Titan,
Are you suggesting EWLs comments are constructive? Just what I am against, inconstructive pandering drivel.
The only offensive comment I see here is
EWL, smarting over 'the attitude' of the crew/pax that died on the three other 9/11 planes, disgusting.
Are you suggesting EWLs comments are constructive? Just what I am against, inconstructive pandering drivel.
The only offensive comment I see here is
If the same attitude was taken on Sep 11, apart from UA53 where it would appear the passengers and crew did fight back then maybe it would be a different world today.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Full accolades to GREG KH@N and DENISE - the 2 F/A's who intervened - along with the passengers.
You did something that many people would also HOPE they are capable of doing, if confronted with a similar situation.
On a day-to-day basis, in a mundane way, many prove that they are NOT the LEADERS you both proved yourselves to be.
How many times have you sat behind the first car at traffic lights, only to see them change from RED to GREEN..to GREEN....to GREEN...to GREEN - but not move until the person BEHIND stimulated them, by honking.
In this case, GREG and DENISE took the INITIATIVE, as opposed to having to be "stimulated" by someone else.
That "stuff" doesn't come from external training - it comes from within.
And - in a laboured sort of way - I believe that THAT is what Winstun is saying in his posts. He is (perhaps because of his youth), non-understanding of others who offer thanks and admiration to GREG and DENISE for doing what he(?) considers "human nature".
Be assured, Winstun, it isn't!
However, rather than bag others, try to understand what I have written.
GREG and DENISE were afforded the opportunity to do something EXTRA-ordinary, and they passed the test with exemplary standards.
If..when...your time comes, Winstun we ALL hope that YOU are similarly recognised!!
You did something that many people would also HOPE they are capable of doing, if confronted with a similar situation.
On a day-to-day basis, in a mundane way, many prove that they are NOT the LEADERS you both proved yourselves to be.
How many times have you sat behind the first car at traffic lights, only to see them change from RED to GREEN..to GREEN....to GREEN...to GREEN - but not move until the person BEHIND stimulated them, by honking.
In this case, GREG and DENISE took the INITIATIVE, as opposed to having to be "stimulated" by someone else.
That "stuff" doesn't come from external training - it comes from within.
And - in a laboured sort of way - I believe that THAT is what Winstun is saying in his posts. He is (perhaps because of his youth), non-understanding of others who offer thanks and admiration to GREG and DENISE for doing what he(?) considers "human nature".
Be assured, Winstun, it isn't!
However, rather than bag others, try to understand what I have written.
GREG and DENISE were afforded the opportunity to do something EXTRA-ordinary, and they passed the test with exemplary standards.
If..when...your time comes, Winstun we ALL hope that YOU are similarly recognised!!
Just Binos
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The big-dicked Winstun and his macho posturing need no further comment from me.
To move the thread slightly in one direction, I address this to EWL, who on Page 2 unapologetically insinuated that the hijacker would turn out to be , shall we say, non true-blue even if notionally Australian.
EWL, I think most Australians would have thought the same thing, indeed I plead guilty in the first degree, having suggested to my daughter after listening to the news bulletin that said gentleman's name would unlikely be Smith, rather a Zrinzevic or Mohammed of some variation.
The truth has cause me once again to look inside myself and be ashamed at what I see. So quick to make false assumptions, so loathe to admit we are both wrong and have in some way contributed to the process continuing.
Perhaps you could at least acknowledge the same thing, EWL?
To move the thread slightly in one direction, I address this to EWL, who on Page 2 unapologetically insinuated that the hijacker would turn out to be , shall we say, non true-blue even if notionally Australian.
EWL, I think most Australians would have thought the same thing, indeed I plead guilty in the first degree, having suggested to my daughter after listening to the news bulletin that said gentleman's name would unlikely be Smith, rather a Zrinzevic or Mohammed of some variation.
The truth has cause me once again to look inside myself and be ashamed at what I see. So quick to make false assumptions, so loathe to admit we are both wrong and have in some way contributed to the process continuing.
Perhaps you could at least acknowledge the same thing, EWL?
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Kaptin,
I disagree. 9/11 changed the world and I say: it is human nature. It better be. Hijacking = Death, Survival = Human nature. Not saying we could all do as good a job as this lot but we sure are gonna try. No question (You people are scaring me if you do question). Turning these crew into 'media heroes' could well erode that. Airline pilots better have faith in this modern human nature, cause it's the pax that are gonna save your asses (purely by numbers) from suicide attacks in the future. We do not want people to THINK they can rely on the crew to save the day.
No, personally I would not want to be recognized. Kind of like when you return someone's lost wallet and they thank you for 'your honesty'. I find that quite repulsive. Well, I have had times and I have saved some lives before, no big deal, it's human nature.
Yeah, what about it..........
I disagree. 9/11 changed the world and I say: it is human nature. It better be. Hijacking = Death, Survival = Human nature. Not saying we could all do as good a job as this lot but we sure are gonna try. No question (You people are scaring me if you do question). Turning these crew into 'media heroes' could well erode that. Airline pilots better have faith in this modern human nature, cause it's the pax that are gonna save your asses (purely by numbers) from suicide attacks in the future. We do not want people to THINK they can rely on the crew to save the day.
No, personally I would not want to be recognized. Kind of like when you return someone's lost wallet and they thank you for 'your honesty'. I find that quite repulsive. Well, I have had times and I have saved some lives before, no big deal, it's human nature.
The big-dicked Winstun
Last edited by Winstun; 31st May 2003 at 23:34.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Airline pilots better have faith in this modern human nature...
Nothing "modern" about the 'survival instinct', Winsie - however whilst some people will stand and fight, others will run away to try to survive.
I have saved some lives before, no big deal, it's human nature
(The big-dicked Winstun )
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others will run away to try to survive.
Kaptin, I have operated in active war zones and saved several lives. Whether you believe me is of no concern to me. And whether you and some of these other children dislike my informative comments, I give as much consideration as to when I will next clean my toenails. 
I am educating the wider audience. Why don't YOU pull your neck in, you might learn something.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
One flew over the cuckoo's nest - and landed HERE methinks.
You don't happen to have a brother by the name of Walter (family name Mitty), do you, Winsie?!!
...and for that we are eternally grateful, oh great Guru!!
I have operated in active war zones and saved several lives
I am educating the wider audience.
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Typical childlike Australian tall poppy putdown syndrome. Clearly evident you don't like me or the fact that I have valid information. Does the fact I am right make you uneasy? And with no constructive points of view, you resort to personal attack. Moderate, modest and mild, what high aspirations
Please answer the question:
They will run to and survive exactly WHERE?
Please answer the question:
however whilst some people will stand and fight, others will run away to try to survive.
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Winstun,
Whilst I feel you do raise some valid points re: human nature and instinct driven survival skills, you're assuming each passenger aboard each flight would be ready to assist crew and fend off would-be hijackers.
In the case with QF1737, many passengers have been quoted in the press that they 'sat there shocked, not knowing what to do'. Fortunately for the Purser, he received assistance from his brother in law (who happened to be aboard), a former UN officer and a couple of other passengers in the vicinity.
Whilst your training, upbringing, etc. may have made this situation very cut and dry for you (ie. race up and help prevent a disaster from occurring), for other passengers this choice may not have been made possible due to 'fright vs flight'.
It is exactly the same scenario with emergency evacuations. You will find there are two groups of passengers who, when thrust into the situation of having to escape a lethal situation themselves, do one of two things:
1) Escape the aircraft via any possible means (climbing over seats, passengers, etc); or
2) Freeze in shock, unable to absorb the events and instructions around them
This is not dissimilar to hijacking situations - you will often find that there are passengers who won't involve themselves for whatever reason (ie. they have children on board the aircraft and don't want to bring any 'unnecessary' attention to themselves, they don't know what to do or how to assist, etc.)
The crew onboard this aircraft employed their training along with basic human instinct to survive. To be able to employ both training and instinct together in a second takes a skilled individual. The Police force, Defence Forces, etc. all train candidates to a similar degree of readiness to deal with situations of this nature (I am not saying that cabin crew receive the same training as these occupations either).
There are people in the Police and Defence forces whom I am sure have, in dangerous situations (and history has proved this), been either unable to act or make decisions essential to the success of the individual. Greg and his crew were fortunate enough to be not only well trained, but they also acted in a way necessary to prevent the hijack being a success. Much kudos to them and their performance.
Whilst I am sure you are probably extensively trained in this area Winstun, I suggest that for everyone's sake you modify your comments given the extraordinary efforts displayed by these crew in containing this incident. I don't normally agree with Kaptin M, but I have to on this occasion as his points have merits in addition to yours.
Yes, the crew were doing their job, and their basic human instinct to survive obviously helped combined with their training. However, do not discount the efforts of these individuals as anything less than superb.
If you have a problem with them being labelled as heroes, then I suggest you aim your criticism at the media, who will always blow stories of this nature into one extreme or the other. The crew have not asked for this attention (they certainly didn't ask for it by getting slashed!), and I know for a fact since the Press Conference on Friday they have been refusing to make any further comment to other press agencies and publications. And this has been their choice - no one elses.
Just my two cents worth.
Whilst I feel you do raise some valid points re: human nature and instinct driven survival skills, you're assuming each passenger aboard each flight would be ready to assist crew and fend off would-be hijackers.
In the case with QF1737, many passengers have been quoted in the press that they 'sat there shocked, not knowing what to do'. Fortunately for the Purser, he received assistance from his brother in law (who happened to be aboard), a former UN officer and a couple of other passengers in the vicinity.
Whilst your training, upbringing, etc. may have made this situation very cut and dry for you (ie. race up and help prevent a disaster from occurring), for other passengers this choice may not have been made possible due to 'fright vs flight'.
It is exactly the same scenario with emergency evacuations. You will find there are two groups of passengers who, when thrust into the situation of having to escape a lethal situation themselves, do one of two things:
1) Escape the aircraft via any possible means (climbing over seats, passengers, etc); or
2) Freeze in shock, unable to absorb the events and instructions around them
This is not dissimilar to hijacking situations - you will often find that there are passengers who won't involve themselves for whatever reason (ie. they have children on board the aircraft and don't want to bring any 'unnecessary' attention to themselves, they don't know what to do or how to assist, etc.)
The crew onboard this aircraft employed their training along with basic human instinct to survive. To be able to employ both training and instinct together in a second takes a skilled individual. The Police force, Defence Forces, etc. all train candidates to a similar degree of readiness to deal with situations of this nature (I am not saying that cabin crew receive the same training as these occupations either).
There are people in the Police and Defence forces whom I am sure have, in dangerous situations (and history has proved this), been either unable to act or make decisions essential to the success of the individual. Greg and his crew were fortunate enough to be not only well trained, but they also acted in a way necessary to prevent the hijack being a success. Much kudos to them and their performance.
Whilst I am sure you are probably extensively trained in this area Winstun, I suggest that for everyone's sake you modify your comments given the extraordinary efforts displayed by these crew in containing this incident. I don't normally agree with Kaptin M, but I have to on this occasion as his points have merits in addition to yours.
Yes, the crew were doing their job, and their basic human instinct to survive obviously helped combined with their training. However, do not discount the efforts of these individuals as anything less than superb.
If you have a problem with them being labelled as heroes, then I suggest you aim your criticism at the media, who will always blow stories of this nature into one extreme or the other. The crew have not asked for this attention (they certainly didn't ask for it by getting slashed!), and I know for a fact since the Press Conference on Friday they have been refusing to make any further comment to other press agencies and publications. And this has been their choice - no one elses.
Just my two cents worth.
Evertonian
Typical childlike Australian tall poppy putdown syndrome
They will run to and survive exactly WHERE?
Lets face it, most people don't like being labelled a hero. Most people deny it when given that tag by a journo with a mike in their face, that doesn't diminish their actions or whether accolades are warranted. I recall many years ago an AN 727 emergency at BNE where, allegedly, the crew (FA's) were the first off! Their survival instinct was to flee ASAP and (whilst I don't wish to cast dispersions without knowing the facts of the matter) this is why Greg & Denise are being held up as examples & trundled out the next day to face the media (not something I would've done!).
PS. EWL is passionate about aviation in this country. WTF is wrong with that? Besides, there's not much else to get excited about down in DPO!!!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
To the point, and a quality, factual posting, Mr Seatback - however, I think it's wasted energy on Winstun, whom - unlike the 2 F/A's around which this topic revolves and who are AVOIDING publicity - has been quick to start extolling his OWN hero-like status.
Not surprisingly he is loud and long in displaying his ignorance of the fight/flight syndrome (inherent in all animals) with his, "Please answer the question:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
however whilst some people will stand and fight, others will run away to try to survive.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They will run to and survive exactly WHERE?
It doesn't take too much to see that our "friend" Winstun is something of a head case when one reads gems such as:
"Typical childlike Australian tall poppy putdown syndrome"..."Does the fact I am right..."..."And whether you and some of these other children dislike my informative comments, I give as much consideration as to when I will next clean my toenails."..."I am educating the wider audience."
Delusions of grandeur.
Go back and study those 5 ATPL's that are eluding you, Winnie, THEN come back here.
Not surprisingly he is loud and long in displaying his ignorance of the fight/flight syndrome (inherent in all animals) with his, "Please answer the question:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
however whilst some people will stand and fight, others will run away to try to survive.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They will run to and survive exactly WHERE?
It doesn't take too much to see that our "friend" Winstun is something of a head case when one reads gems such as:
"Typical childlike Australian tall poppy putdown syndrome"..."Does the fact I am right..."..."And whether you and some of these other children dislike my informative comments, I give as much consideration as to when I will next clean my toenails."..."I am educating the wider audience."
Delusions of grandeur.
Go back and study those 5 ATPL's that are eluding you, Winnie, THEN come back here.