Still flying after Ansett & related stuff - Vol 2.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Thread Starter
Still flying after Ansett & related stuff - Vol 2.
Not a bad thread. even if some posters 
"let fly" at times 
It all adds to the spice tho'.
Clive, I enjoyed reading your last post on the other thread, and feel that it would be beneficial if you would copy & paste it again, on this one. It's been 14 years since "those days" in the Feds office at Brekky Creek where Clive often came bearing the weight of a young family and a heavily mortgaged house on his broad shoulders.
Without a doubt his strong religous faith helped his family immensely, and in spite of the financial position which weighed heavily on him, he stood by his moral principles while others with several freehold properties and a stosh in the bank did not.
For that Clive is to be COMMENDED.
Having worked back with the scabs, under a contract that threatened immediate dismissal for causing trouble (wrt the Dispute), I guess that it might be natural to assume that Clive may have been seen as a "scab sympathiser" by some - that is not my call.
"let fly" at times It all adds to the spice tho'.
Clive, I enjoyed reading your last post on the other thread, and feel that it would be beneficial if you would copy & paste it again, on this one. It's been 14 years since "those days" in the Feds office at Brekky Creek where Clive often came bearing the weight of a young family and a heavily mortgaged house on his broad shoulders.
Without a doubt his strong religous faith helped his family immensely, and in spite of the financial position which weighed heavily on him, he stood by his moral principles while others with several freehold properties and a stosh in the bank did not.
For that Clive is to be COMMENDED.
Having worked back with the scabs, under a contract that threatened immediate dismissal for causing trouble (wrt the Dispute), I guess that it might be natural to assume that Clive may have been seen as a "scab sympathiser" by some - that is not my call.
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Indeed Kap - an excellent thread with generally reasoned arguement, rather than bloodletting.
As to the comment regarding salaries of pilots compared to F/As, I do not ever dispute that what was said was very much correct.
Fact is that the pay scales were way out of whack with what the airlines were capable of producing at the time.
Yes - individual unions negotiated rates well above the station of the group of employees, and this caused more problems than it solved. There is no doubt the industry needed a serious restructure, which with the pertinent figures in front of us and a future path laid out, I am sure we would all have carefully embraced to find a logical level to keep everyone in work.
After Eenie Weenie was declared out of DPO (which I found out on the radio driving into Mooloolaba with Mrs Loco and the boys) I, having been transferred back to Traffic at DPO from Sales Manager Tas when that position went West in a restructure, cleared $2500.00 for my first fortnight there. It was insane, as were the hours.
We are all the victims of operational idiots and numerous lives have been changed forever by these lowlives, many of which one can still find in QF management.
Clive - thank you for an excellent and reasoned post. I have a feeling I may have met you somewhere back in the mists of time when aeroplanes had a white T or a big red A on the tail and all was right with the world, but cannot lock and load. Maybe buying Table Cape cheese on turnaround in the back room at TN Wynyard.
As for "sage" - I am not a rocket scientist Clive, just a very naughty load controller. Thank you for saying so. I have been called many things over the years but that is a first.
Best all - and thank you for at least opening the door a chink.
Amos - cool down please mate and best regards.
EWL
Ron Knight
As to the comment regarding salaries of pilots compared to F/As, I do not ever dispute that what was said was very much correct.
Fact is that the pay scales were way out of whack with what the airlines were capable of producing at the time.
Yes - individual unions negotiated rates well above the station of the group of employees, and this caused more problems than it solved. There is no doubt the industry needed a serious restructure, which with the pertinent figures in front of us and a future path laid out, I am sure we would all have carefully embraced to find a logical level to keep everyone in work.
After Eenie Weenie was declared out of DPO (which I found out on the radio driving into Mooloolaba with Mrs Loco and the boys) I, having been transferred back to Traffic at DPO from Sales Manager Tas when that position went West in a restructure, cleared $2500.00 for my first fortnight there. It was insane, as were the hours.
We are all the victims of operational idiots and numerous lives have been changed forever by these lowlives, many of which one can still find in QF management.
Clive - thank you for an excellent and reasoned post. I have a feeling I may have met you somewhere back in the mists of time when aeroplanes had a white T or a big red A on the tail and all was right with the world, but cannot lock and load. Maybe buying Table Cape cheese on turnaround in the back room at TN Wynyard.
As for "sage" - I am not a rocket scientist Clive, just a very naughty load controller. Thank you for saying so. I have been called many things over the years but that is a first.
Best all - and thank you for at least opening the door a chink.
Amos - cool down please mate and best regards.
EWL
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As requested Kaptin......
posted 21st April 2003 03:07
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A voice of Reason
Gentlemen,
Normally, like many posters to this thread have espoused, I prefer to steer clear of the “dead end street” of debate into the rights and wrongs of events leading up to the state of the aviation industry as we know it today. However in deference to EWL’s observation that many in this place may be experiencing an ebbing in the health sapping anger (on both sides) of years gone by, I would like to nurture this possibility by telling my story and making just a few comments/observations.
Firstly a declaration of interest – I am one of those described in this place as a member of the “dirty dozen”. I have never hidden behind an alias and have always used my real name when expressing my views here. Sadly that has effected my job prospects in this industry as I have been rejected at least once to my knowledge, since the demise of Ansett, on what I understand was on the basis of being a $cab sympathizer. I believe however that my position has given me a unique perspective in the entire sorry affair.
As a junior First Officer, at the time, the 18 months out of the only industry I was skilled in, and had ever known, in 89/90 was horrific to say the least. My survival was only secured through the generosity of colleagues (many whom I had never met) via the marriage/home/life saving concept of the welfare fund. The news, in late 1990, that AFAP court action had resulted in the interviewing of hundreds of those in a similar position to myself was more than exciting. But this joy soon became despair as most friends, and even my brother-in-law (who can attest to my reapplication date for the conspiracy theorists amongst us), were all gradually advised that they were unsuccessful. Why I was chosen I still don’t know to date… but as history shows, 12 (13 in fact) were, thankfully (or though many on this forum might say – sadly) I was one of them.
So after 18 months out of work, towing the union line, and keeping the faith, the joy of re-employment became a very difficult decision indeed. Contrary to Greybeard’s beliefs…..
“It doesn't matter when you went back, when you joined, all helped to allow the situation to develop to the current state of the Airline Industry in Australia.
I HOPE YOU ARE A PROUD LOT, YOU SURE DID WELL IN STUFFING UP AUSTRALIA.”
…… the only option for me was to leave the industry or accept the offer. The 18 months away from the flight deck made me all but unemployable overseas.
So where am I going with all this? Well the initial concept of “hatchet burying” was difficult indeed. Foe example one of the first Captains I flew with upon my return was from my original intake. My command (and I’m grateful for it – don’t get me wrong) came many many years later, but it did come contrary to my understanding of how I might be treated. Had I not got on with life, “laid my cards on the table and accepted my colleagues as mates again” as EWL so aptly put it, then I believe things would have been very different and I would either be out of the industry forever or in an early grave through stress related illness.
So I worked hard, accepted the new world order, gained my command and completed a couple of degrees as insurance against a similar episode. And yes a similar episode (although under vastly different conditions) has occurred. Thankfully I have work (in S.E. Asia) and am trying to get on with life - again.
For those I regard as mates most recently displaced by the dynamic nature of our industry I say this… the collapse of Ansett, and our lives with it, seems only days old even though it will soon be 2 years. Perhaps this will give an insight into why the “dispute” seems like yesterday to those most vocal on this forum. Particularly as many of us experience life away from home and family. The anger they express must surely be at least comprehensible as you feel anger towards Air New Zealand management, The Federal Govt., or Dixon (depending upon your theory of the collapse).
To those I have not had the pleasure knowing for many years, since the equally devastating event in our industry destroyed much of your lives, I understand your anger. But as poster after poster has said here… it does no good. I know you understand the desperation that has led to the suicides reported in this forum, and the life altering results these recent events enacted upon all stakeholders… not just the pilots. I also understand that to “kiss and make up” is nigh impossible. We must all agree this will not happen. What has happened has happened… what has been said has been said…. It’s too late to take it all back.
But it’s not too late for all to take a step back. Thank whichever higher being you believe in that you were not in the Sari Club having a drink a few short months ago, that you were not born into a loving family that found itself under a bomb in Kahbul, that you had not chosen a life as an accountant and been chosen to represent your company in its offices on the 95th floor of the World Trade Centre in late 2001, and that you are blessed with good health and hopefully a loving family.
I am lucky enough to find myself in such a position and I will continue to regard all those in Aviation as my mates (save some of those in management positions whose job description outstrips their abilities 10:1 and who make the “Peter Principle” look like HR policy). I suffer from bouts of anger and depression over the “what ifs” of this life, just as anyone would… if you don’t then check for a heartbeat.
I am sure I will receive opposition for the position life has dealt me and the way I view the situation, and it may again effect my future prospects, but I prefer to “direct my anger where it is due” (as the sage EWL has suggested). Sadly I think we all have vastly different views as to that direction, and who is due to receive it.
Good luck to all.
............................................................ ............................................
Amos,
Almost all of it.... Not directly to the fund itself, as I believe it was winding up, but I did assist 2 fellow collegues on a monthly basis for about a year after getting back. They are both now back on their feet I am pleased to report. All recorded in a diary if anyone is concerned. I felt it better that way.
posted 21st April 2003 03:07
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A voice of Reason
Gentlemen,
Normally, like many posters to this thread have espoused, I prefer to steer clear of the “dead end street” of debate into the rights and wrongs of events leading up to the state of the aviation industry as we know it today. However in deference to EWL’s observation that many in this place may be experiencing an ebbing in the health sapping anger (on both sides) of years gone by, I would like to nurture this possibility by telling my story and making just a few comments/observations.
Firstly a declaration of interest – I am one of those described in this place as a member of the “dirty dozen”. I have never hidden behind an alias and have always used my real name when expressing my views here. Sadly that has effected my job prospects in this industry as I have been rejected at least once to my knowledge, since the demise of Ansett, on what I understand was on the basis of being a $cab sympathizer. I believe however that my position has given me a unique perspective in the entire sorry affair.
As a junior First Officer, at the time, the 18 months out of the only industry I was skilled in, and had ever known, in 89/90 was horrific to say the least. My survival was only secured through the generosity of colleagues (many whom I had never met) via the marriage/home/life saving concept of the welfare fund. The news, in late 1990, that AFAP court action had resulted in the interviewing of hundreds of those in a similar position to myself was more than exciting. But this joy soon became despair as most friends, and even my brother-in-law (who can attest to my reapplication date for the conspiracy theorists amongst us), were all gradually advised that they were unsuccessful. Why I was chosen I still don’t know to date… but as history shows, 12 (13 in fact) were, thankfully (or though many on this forum might say – sadly) I was one of them.
So after 18 months out of work, towing the union line, and keeping the faith, the joy of re-employment became a very difficult decision indeed. Contrary to Greybeard’s beliefs…..
“It doesn't matter when you went back, when you joined, all helped to allow the situation to develop to the current state of the Airline Industry in Australia.
I HOPE YOU ARE A PROUD LOT, YOU SURE DID WELL IN STUFFING UP AUSTRALIA.”
…… the only option for me was to leave the industry or accept the offer. The 18 months away from the flight deck made me all but unemployable overseas.
So where am I going with all this? Well the initial concept of “hatchet burying” was difficult indeed. Foe example one of the first Captains I flew with upon my return was from my original intake. My command (and I’m grateful for it – don’t get me wrong) came many many years later, but it did come contrary to my understanding of how I might be treated. Had I not got on with life, “laid my cards on the table and accepted my colleagues as mates again” as EWL so aptly put it, then I believe things would have been very different and I would either be out of the industry forever or in an early grave through stress related illness.
So I worked hard, accepted the new world order, gained my command and completed a couple of degrees as insurance against a similar episode. And yes a similar episode (although under vastly different conditions) has occurred. Thankfully I have work (in S.E. Asia) and am trying to get on with life - again.
For those I regard as mates most recently displaced by the dynamic nature of our industry I say this… the collapse of Ansett, and our lives with it, seems only days old even though it will soon be 2 years. Perhaps this will give an insight into why the “dispute” seems like yesterday to those most vocal on this forum. Particularly as many of us experience life away from home and family. The anger they express must surely be at least comprehensible as you feel anger towards Air New Zealand management, The Federal Govt., or Dixon (depending upon your theory of the collapse).
To those I have not had the pleasure knowing for many years, since the equally devastating event in our industry destroyed much of your lives, I understand your anger. But as poster after poster has said here… it does no good. I know you understand the desperation that has led to the suicides reported in this forum, and the life altering results these recent events enacted upon all stakeholders… not just the pilots. I also understand that to “kiss and make up” is nigh impossible. We must all agree this will not happen. What has happened has happened… what has been said has been said…. It’s too late to take it all back.
But it’s not too late for all to take a step back. Thank whichever higher being you believe in that you were not in the Sari Club having a drink a few short months ago, that you were not born into a loving family that found itself under a bomb in Kahbul, that you had not chosen a life as an accountant and been chosen to represent your company in its offices on the 95th floor of the World Trade Centre in late 2001, and that you are blessed with good health and hopefully a loving family.
I am lucky enough to find myself in such a position and I will continue to regard all those in Aviation as my mates (save some of those in management positions whose job description outstrips their abilities 10:1 and who make the “Peter Principle” look like HR policy). I suffer from bouts of anger and depression over the “what ifs” of this life, just as anyone would… if you don’t then check for a heartbeat.
I am sure I will receive opposition for the position life has dealt me and the way I view the situation, and it may again effect my future prospects, but I prefer to “direct my anger where it is due” (as the sage EWL has suggested). Sadly I think we all have vastly different views as to that direction, and who is due to receive it.
Good luck to all.
............................................................ ............................................
Amos,
Almost all of it.... Not directly to the fund itself, as I believe it was winding up, but I did assist 2 fellow collegues on a monthly basis for about a year after getting back. They are both now back on their feet I am pleased to report. All recorded in a diary if anyone is concerned. I felt it better that way.
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My questions to Clive:
Did you remain a member of the AFAP during your years in Anscab?
Did you join the APA, and if so why?
If your joined the APA, were you under pressure to do so?
Was the APA a closed shop?
Clive, I am afraid your post won’t wash with me, despite the attempted white wash.
You see Clive, unless you did remain an AFAP member, then you simply blended into Scab City and became one of them. Which tends to make the exercise of remaining unemployed for your 18 months a waste of time.
If you think 18 months was long, spare a thought for the guys who were unemployed for years, and some of whom never regained employment.
The welfare fund was there for your use, and you availed yourself of its benefit. Please don’t insult those of us who contributed to it by suggesting you directly assisted someone else, and preferred to excise your AFAP membership to fraternise with scabs.
For EWL:
Your proposition of guilt on Hawke et al, is misdirected.
As much as you attempt to hold a fence sitting position, nothing can assuage the fact it is the scabs who hold the greater guilt.
Then reason is really quite simple:
1. Had no one pilot scabbed, and the domestic aircraft been crewed by no one other than foreign scabs, the ACTU could not have sustained the onslaught of supporting such an untenable position in Australian industrial relations. There would have been a revolt by an increasing number of nervous members of the ACTU executive, and that was alluded to in Four Corners by none other than George Crawford. Hawke would have had no option but to dump Abeles, and the little Cherub, Kelty, would have had to use the olive branch he dragged out of his A*S* to come back to the AFAP.
2. Second, in that situation, the Australian public would not have stood for such a scenario, and even the controlled media would have had a lot to say about the situation.
Therefore the only guilt lies with each and every scab, those who ply the skies in Australia now with QF, and those who now flood the world market where no scab dared to tread until now.
Even now, those scabs are extremely nervous, despite what they bleat, and they know what they are, and will remain, forever.
Forgive the scabs?
Not a hope in hell!
Did you remain a member of the AFAP during your years in Anscab?
Did you join the APA, and if so why?
If your joined the APA, were you under pressure to do so?
Was the APA a closed shop?
Clive, I am afraid your post won’t wash with me, despite the attempted white wash.
You see Clive, unless you did remain an AFAP member, then you simply blended into Scab City and became one of them. Which tends to make the exercise of remaining unemployed for your 18 months a waste of time.
If you think 18 months was long, spare a thought for the guys who were unemployed for years, and some of whom never regained employment.
The welfare fund was there for your use, and you availed yourself of its benefit. Please don’t insult those of us who contributed to it by suggesting you directly assisted someone else, and preferred to excise your AFAP membership to fraternise with scabs.
For EWL:
Your proposition of guilt on Hawke et al, is misdirected.
As much as you attempt to hold a fence sitting position, nothing can assuage the fact it is the scabs who hold the greater guilt.
Then reason is really quite simple:
1. Had no one pilot scabbed, and the domestic aircraft been crewed by no one other than foreign scabs, the ACTU could not have sustained the onslaught of supporting such an untenable position in Australian industrial relations. There would have been a revolt by an increasing number of nervous members of the ACTU executive, and that was alluded to in Four Corners by none other than George Crawford. Hawke would have had no option but to dump Abeles, and the little Cherub, Kelty, would have had to use the olive branch he dragged out of his A*S* to come back to the AFAP.
2. Second, in that situation, the Australian public would not have stood for such a scenario, and even the controlled media would have had a lot to say about the situation.
Therefore the only guilt lies with each and every scab, those who ply the skies in Australia now with QF, and those who now flood the world market where no scab dared to tread until now.
Even now, those scabs are extremely nervous, despite what they bleat, and they know what they are, and will remain, forever.
Forgive the scabs?
Not a hope in hell!
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Well EWL I sure as hell didn't clear $2500 per fornight in '89 AND I was LFS with AN then AND a Training Capt as well. 
Clive I don't know who you are BUT YOU ARE NOT A SCAB "IF" you joined or were involved in discussions AFTER about March '90.
Athough we may differ on perspective of events!
Clive I don't know who you are BUT YOU ARE NOT A SCAB "IF" you joined or were involved in discussions AFTER about March '90.
Athough we may differ on perspective of events!
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Sub Sonic - be sure of a few pertinent facts.
The ACTU were powerless, and could not do a thing as the weapons they had - Ie. the TWU as their former most valuable tool to get what they wanted was bleeding even harder than the pilots and wanted work, even if on foreign aeroplanes. The FCU (the ground staff union) was and still is incapable of any action of any great consequence as they are simply a revenue raising operation, and believe me, I have seen their disappearing acts before on more than one occasion.
The Australian travelling public was directed by media to see the stikers as the villains, and was in acceptance mode after about 4 weeks. The airlines would have happily populated the front 2 seats of each and every aeroplance with flyins and GA upgrades.
There would never have been a revolt of the common people, despite the vitriol copped by us groundies at the front line. Ask yourself the question, what in hell could they have done???
Admit it Sub Sonic - each and every one of you was on a thrashing to nothing the second you handed in your flight bag.
If none had gone back, the rebuild would have taken longer, but the airlines at that particular point were making less of a loss with static fleets than flying a full schedules.
As for Hawke not being a villian, where on earth were you over that time? East-West had deregulation delayed on them by Hawke to give the fat man time to buy us by stealth - Fat man buys the bodgies drug ridden daughter a Porsche as a present - hello??? Is a pattern developing here?
I suppose you are right though Sub, please never let me cloud blind hate with facts.
Even my local RSL Club allows and welcomes Japanese tourists to come in and have a drink and a chat, and they were certainly the most disonourable enemy in the last century.
It is time to get on with it.
EWL
leftfrontside
I will bet you did not put in a 153 hour fortnight at the same time either.
EWL
The ACTU were powerless, and could not do a thing as the weapons they had - Ie. the TWU as their former most valuable tool to get what they wanted was bleeding even harder than the pilots and wanted work, even if on foreign aeroplanes. The FCU (the ground staff union) was and still is incapable of any action of any great consequence as they are simply a revenue raising operation, and believe me, I have seen their disappearing acts before on more than one occasion.
The Australian travelling public was directed by media to see the stikers as the villains, and was in acceptance mode after about 4 weeks. The airlines would have happily populated the front 2 seats of each and every aeroplance with flyins and GA upgrades.
There would never have been a revolt of the common people, despite the vitriol copped by us groundies at the front line. Ask yourself the question, what in hell could they have done???
Admit it Sub Sonic - each and every one of you was on a thrashing to nothing the second you handed in your flight bag.
If none had gone back, the rebuild would have taken longer, but the airlines at that particular point were making less of a loss with static fleets than flying a full schedules.
As for Hawke not being a villian, where on earth were you over that time? East-West had deregulation delayed on them by Hawke to give the fat man time to buy us by stealth - Fat man buys the bodgies drug ridden daughter a Porsche as a present - hello??? Is a pattern developing here?
I suppose you are right though Sub, please never let me cloud blind hate with facts.
Even my local RSL Club allows and welcomes Japanese tourists to come in and have a drink and a chat, and they were certainly the most disonourable enemy in the last century.
It is time to get on with it.
EWL
leftfrontside
I will bet you did not put in a 153 hour fortnight at the same time either.
EWL
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Wrong again EWL "IT WAS A MERC for her 21st"
OK EWL but it was in the vicinity of 100hrs+ per fornight AND we were'nt standing around a coffee machine.
Please lets not get into that area as it's irrevelant as each occupation has a different perspective of where it begins and ends.
IN THE "OLD AN" WE ALL PULLED TOGETHER --------------- "EXCEPT THE F......................g SC$%^BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OK EWL but it was in the vicinity of 100hrs+ per fornight AND we were'nt standing around a coffee machine.
Please lets not get into that area as it's irrevelant as each occupation has a different perspective of where it begins and ends.
IN THE "OLD AN" WE ALL PULLED TOGETHER --------------- "EXCEPT THE F......................g SC$%^BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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That may have been another left - but a Porsche was handed over in the EW years.
Hell - either way, that sort of dodginess would not be copped today and the Bodgie has more blood on his hands than anyone othere than the Fat Man. God got one - so far.
I also note there was no comment re the 153 hours worked in a fortnight to clear $2500.00.Ever worked a 153 hour fortnight?
EWL
Hell - either way, that sort of dodginess would not be copped today and the Bodgie has more blood on his hands than anyone othere than the Fat Man. God got one - so far.
I also note there was no comment re the 153 hours worked in a fortnight to clear $2500.00.Ever worked a 153 hour fortnight?
EWL
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I'm truly sorry to have to say this EWl, because you strike me as a bloke who has seen the error of his ways and wishes to repent, but, you have been a scab supporter ever since 89' and now appear to wish to appease yourself to the other side of the argument!
But, you see, it doesn't work that way!
You either know where you stand or you don't!
You can't front up 14 yrs later and suck up to both sides because you happen to be going through an emotional period in your personal life!
But, you see, it doesn't work that way!
You either know where you stand or you don't!
You can't front up 14 yrs later and suck up to both sides because you happen to be going through an emotional period in your personal life!
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The PPK hasn:t gone anywhere at all. Just trired of the same old $hit, and I did say this site didnt need me if that continued.
I suppose if Kaptin M was involved in negotiations, or signed and then withdrew/was rejected, then he is still a scab! If the logic applies one way, i.e., Clive was not involved in negotiations, therefore isnt, then the opposite must apply.
Good p@ost gaunty. i HAVE SAID IT MANY TIMES, THE $CABS WERE NOT THE ENMEMY. tHE LIKES OF ABELES AND HAWKE WERE, ALONG WITH THOSE WHO SIGNED, WERE REJECTED AND THEN BECAME PILLARS OF STRENGTH FOR THE CAUSE.
tHIS COMPUTER IS ROOTED THE SHIFT IS LOCKED. BACK LATER.
PHNOM PENH IS STILL A GREAT PLACE TO BE. THE BEER IS STILL SWEET AND THE LADIES STILL PRETTY.
I suppose if Kaptin M was involved in negotiations, or signed and then withdrew/was rejected, then he is still a scab! If the logic applies one way, i.e., Clive was not involved in negotiations, therefore isnt, then the opposite must apply.
Good p@ost gaunty. i HAVE SAID IT MANY TIMES, THE $CABS WERE NOT THE ENMEMY. tHE LIKES OF ABELES AND HAWKE WERE, ALONG WITH THOSE WHO SIGNED, WERE REJECTED AND THEN BECAME PILLARS OF STRENGTH FOR THE CAUSE.
tHIS COMPUTER IS ROOTED THE SHIFT IS LOCKED. BACK LATER.
PHNOM PENH IS STILL A GREAT PLACE TO BE. THE BEER IS STILL SWEET AND THE LADIES STILL PRETTY.
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Amos. I have been here all the while. I have fought tooth and nail and rebuilt my personal life to a point where I have a reasonable future ahead if all goes well.
I have nothing whatsoever to repent about, and am not in one little way a scab supporter as you call it.
I had and have great mates on both sides of the dispute and treasure them as such, and have never for one second said that one was wrong or right.
There is no wrong or right in this instance, simply differences of opinion with major consequence. Who the hell would I be to judge choices of friends that affected their lives. It was and ever will be my place,or that of any person other than the one directly involved.
As for fronting up 14 years later, I think you will find my involvements stretch a tad further, and my contact with those on both sides has been fairly consistent.
I know exactly where I stand, and my choice is not to take sides. I was privvy to much information that was used against you at the time of the dispute and could not do a damned thing about it.
Please do not patronise me Amos. I will not stand for it.
I opened up and told all that I had a nervous meltdown after the strike, and redundancy and return to traffic duties followed by EW shutdown and a move to AN Adelaide in order to show that not only aircrew bled over this time and events and you throw that back in my face. How bloody dare you.
I will have you know that was in '91, and the use of it was as low an act as i have seen since the strike when EW kept flying ('89ers and non alike) and had wives phoned and threatened when hubbies left for work.
What I stand for Amos, is the aviation industry as a whole. It is where I grew up, it is bigger than all of us, including you believe it or not. We have lost it and need to get it back.
I will NOT cop cheap and ill informed shots.
EWL
I have nothing whatsoever to repent about, and am not in one little way a scab supporter as you call it.
I had and have great mates on both sides of the dispute and treasure them as such, and have never for one second said that one was wrong or right.
There is no wrong or right in this instance, simply differences of opinion with major consequence. Who the hell would I be to judge choices of friends that affected their lives. It was and ever will be my place,or that of any person other than the one directly involved.
As for fronting up 14 years later, I think you will find my involvements stretch a tad further, and my contact with those on both sides has been fairly consistent.
I know exactly where I stand, and my choice is not to take sides. I was privvy to much information that was used against you at the time of the dispute and could not do a damned thing about it.
Please do not patronise me Amos. I will not stand for it.
I opened up and told all that I had a nervous meltdown after the strike, and redundancy and return to traffic duties followed by EW shutdown and a move to AN Adelaide in order to show that not only aircrew bled over this time and events and you throw that back in my face. How bloody dare you.
I will have you know that was in '91, and the use of it was as low an act as i have seen since the strike when EW kept flying ('89ers and non alike) and had wives phoned and threatened when hubbies left for work.
What I stand for Amos, is the aviation industry as a whole. It is where I grew up, it is bigger than all of us, including you believe it or not. We have lost it and need to get it back.
I will NOT cop cheap and ill informed shots.
EWL
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Thread Starter
Bloody amazing how an "event" that happened 14 years ago still manages top billing and numerous encores, isn't it?!
I guess from that, EWL, you can see how much chance there is of the two sides ever reconciling their differences now. If there had been ANY chance at "building bridges", it was dashed by the Ansett Pilots' Association.
My guess is the "blacklist" that you saw would have been formulated by pilots, rather than management - management don't care WHO is doing the work, as long as it gets done.
PPScab, "..and I did say this site didnt need me if that continued."
What made you think that you were needed.........ANYWHERE?!?!?!!!!!
Edit: EWL you posted while I was typing, and then (I) had to make a quick dash to the monorail to take a mate and his lady on their way to catch a flight to Honolulu...lucky beggars!
Back to your last post, and one of your closing comments
It is gone. We can NEVER, EVER get back what we had.
As Father Time decrees, the clock cannot be turned back - not even for one second.
Be glad for the good times you were fortunate enough to have lived through, and the people you met, but forget about ever getting back what you (we) had.
It's gone.
I guess from that, EWL, you can see how much chance there is of the two sides ever reconciling their differences now. If there had been ANY chance at "building bridges", it was dashed by the Ansett Pilots' Association.
My guess is the "blacklist" that you saw would have been formulated by pilots, rather than management - management don't care WHO is doing the work, as long as it gets done.
PPScab, "..and I did say this site didnt need me if that continued."
What made you think that you were needed.........ANYWHERE?!?!?!!!!!
Edit: EWL you posted while I was typing, and then (I) had to make a quick dash to the monorail to take a mate and his lady on their way to catch a flight to Honolulu...lucky beggars!
Back to your last post, and one of your closing comments
We have lost it and need to get it back.
As Father Time decrees, the clock cannot be turned back - not even for one second.
Be glad for the good times you were fortunate enough to have lived through, and the people you met, but forget about ever getting back what you (we) had.
It's gone.
Last edited by Kaptin M; 21st Apr 2003 at 18:12.
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Point is well taken Kaptin.
Interesting how they turn on 3rd parties if the hate is strong enough. Sad that, as reasoning human beings such as yourself have found it in themselves to co-exist. Well done mate.
I have had nearly enough of this, and will pull my head in as the radical fringe is not worth the effort. I tried, and have enjoyed informed discussion with yourself and many others.
The attitude of some would make you wonder where one starts the obviously needed revision of the pshyc tests.
Best regards all.
Saving a personal attack, I will shut up over '89 as of now.
EWL
Oh - Kaptin - these docs were definitely from senior AN (and EW) management and not a pilot produced document.
Loco
Interesting how they turn on 3rd parties if the hate is strong enough. Sad that, as reasoning human beings such as yourself have found it in themselves to co-exist. Well done mate.
I have had nearly enough of this, and will pull my head in as the radical fringe is not worth the effort. I tried, and have enjoyed informed discussion with yourself and many others.
The attitude of some would make you wonder where one starts the obviously needed revision of the pshyc tests.
Best regards all.
Saving a personal attack, I will shut up over '89 as of now.
EWL
Oh - Kaptin - these docs were definitely from senior AN (and EW) management and not a pilot produced document.
Loco
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Christ you lot, grow up!! It was years ago, long dead!
Frankly the "89" thing gives me the shi-ts and its passing on a bad karma to the new pilots.
Just drop it!
To tell the truth, I had a 6 month break from Prune for this reason!
/me waits for flaming!
NAP
Frankly the "89" thing gives me the shi-ts and its passing on a bad karma to the new pilots.
Just drop it!
To tell the truth, I had a 6 month break from Prune for this reason!
/me waits for flaming!
NAP
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Yeah, well, if you want to share hard luck stories with me EWL don't waste your time mate!
The stuff I know would leave you so far behind it wouldn't be funny!!
About time you and your lot got on with life and stopped trying to justify yourselves 14 yrs after the event!
And by the way, I'm not patronising you, I'm telling you the way it is! Get used to it!
I wouldn't waste my time flaming you N-A-P,
You're not worth it!
The stuff I know would leave you so far behind it wouldn't be funny!!
About time you and your lot got on with life and stopped trying to justify yourselves 14 yrs after the event!
And by the way, I'm not patronising you, I'm telling you the way it is! Get used to it!
I wouldn't waste my time flaming you N-A-P,
You're not worth it!
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EWL
Let me express this in a manner even you can understand.
The progress of the dispute was dependent on one factor, and one factor alone - that no one scabbed.
It was the pilot membership of the AFAP which stated "fix the problem".
The AFAP did what it was charged by the membership to do.
It was known what Hawke would do.
It was known what Abeles would do.
It was known where Kelty lay his head.
It was also known that the ACTU would eventually twist and tell Kelty to tell Hawke to tell Abeles he would have to talk to the AFAP.
But it is as sure as the Pope is a Catholic that was dependent on no one scabbing.
Your imagination has run riot with your scenarios, and selling the Australian public opinion short is not terribly smart, as the ALP is wont to do.
I also suggest, that if you were indeed netting $2,500 in 1989 each fortnight, then you indeed mesmerised someone into thinking you had some value - what I cannot imagine.
Let me express this in a manner even you can understand.
The progress of the dispute was dependent on one factor, and one factor alone - that no one scabbed.
It was the pilot membership of the AFAP which stated "fix the problem".
The AFAP did what it was charged by the membership to do.
It was known what Hawke would do.
It was known what Abeles would do.
It was known where Kelty lay his head.
It was also known that the ACTU would eventually twist and tell Kelty to tell Hawke to tell Abeles he would have to talk to the AFAP.
But it is as sure as the Pope is a Catholic that was dependent on no one scabbing.
Your imagination has run riot with your scenarios, and selling the Australian public opinion short is not terribly smart, as the ALP is wont to do.
I also suggest, that if you were indeed netting $2,500 in 1989 each fortnight, then you indeed mesmerised someone into thinking you had some value - what I cannot imagine.
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You are being patronising Amos, and there is one small difference.
I did get on with it - I am over it - It is no hard luck story at all if you knew the figures my Travel Agency is producing and has done through Sep 11 - Gulf War and SARS.
There were dark days indeed, as we all had and I could hate either or both sides of the dispute but do not.
My apologies for not fitting into your black and white plan, but that is something I never have of will do.
I am just fine, thank you for inquiring (backhandedly). I wasn't as many others that you discount in recollections of '89 anywhere near fine for a while. Many did not recover, and scant thought has been paid to the hundreds of family or partnership run hotels and associated tourist businesses that failed because of it.
Not patronising?? Bah!!
EWL
Sub Sonic
My God you are anally retentive. Quite simple - as I mentioned earlier the penalty rates/allowances in Traffic as well as every other section of the industry were excessive - THAT was the point.
As to not being worth the dollars?? Another idiot who has never worked with me. My crews were and always will be the best of the best.
Leave personal insults out of this place.
It is below you.
EWL
I did get on with it - I am over it - It is no hard luck story at all if you knew the figures my Travel Agency is producing and has done through Sep 11 - Gulf War and SARS.
There were dark days indeed, as we all had and I could hate either or both sides of the dispute but do not.
My apologies for not fitting into your black and white plan, but that is something I never have of will do.
I am just fine, thank you for inquiring (backhandedly). I wasn't as many others that you discount in recollections of '89 anywhere near fine for a while. Many did not recover, and scant thought has been paid to the hundreds of family or partnership run hotels and associated tourist businesses that failed because of it.
Not patronising?? Bah!!
EWL
Sub Sonic
My God you are anally retentive. Quite simple - as I mentioned earlier the penalty rates/allowances in Traffic as well as every other section of the industry were excessive - THAT was the point.
As to not being worth the dollars?? Another idiot who has never worked with me. My crews were and always will be the best of the best.
Leave personal insults out of this place.
It is below you.
EWL
Last edited by Eastwest Loco; 21st Apr 2003 at 18:20.