Still flying after Ansett & related stuff - Vol 2.
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Australia when not slaving
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EWL I was about to sign out and hit the cot, read your post you like a lot of others don't get it and never will like the likes of those that folded under pressure it is not about ego as you put it, it is in the inbred pysch of most Australians (obviously not Sc@#BS) which goes back to 1788 to not buckle under duress.
Just look at Gallipolli and the battle of Long Tan for examples one a disaster the other a victory SO DON'T GIVE US CRAP ABOUT EGO it had nothing to do with it.
One reason THOSE who fell as you put will never be recognised is that they HAD NO SPINE
Just look at Gallipolli and the battle of Long Tan for examples one a disaster the other a victory SO DON'T GIVE US CRAP ABOUT EGO it had nothing to do with it.
One reason THOSE who fell as you put will never be recognised is that they HAD NO SPINE
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Devonport Tasmania Australia
Posts: 1,837
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
sniffer
I am sorry but cannot agree. I stood close to but apart from the debate, and still feel ego had a great deal to do with decisions of invunerability that were made in the early days of the dispute.
I still feel we were all victims of a conspiracy designed to restructure the Airline industry for long enough to allow the Fat Man to strip his company totally, as collapse was in his pudgy bloodshot eyes inevitable.
Sleep tight mate. The storm has passed.
Best regards
EWL
I am sorry but cannot agree. I stood close to but apart from the debate, and still feel ego had a great deal to do with decisions of invunerability that were made in the early days of the dispute.
I still feel we were all victims of a conspiracy designed to restructure the Airline industry for long enough to allow the Fat Man to strip his company totally, as collapse was in his pudgy bloodshot eyes inevitable.
Sleep tight mate. The storm has passed.
Best regards
EWL
Guest
Posts: n/a
Look,
Some of you folks are missing the point, EWL included
Fact was, however we got into the'89 mess, whether it was ego, foolishness, protecting constitutional rights, lunacy or whatever, we had secret ballots that conclusively determined that we (ie.e the AFAP members) would hang together to the end. Win, lose or draw. To my clear recollection there were no conditions attached to the votes. Most followed the decision and a few didn't. Those who did stick together find it hard to forget those who voted one way and then ran the other.
Is there something I'm missing?
Anyway, my one major regret over the nearly 14 years is the blacklist put in place by the returnees. Most of our mates never did anyone any harm except to abide by their vote and a collective decision. That hardly seems a reason to deny them a career for ever.
As for life now...well I'm still an AFAP member and never have in 33 years doubted the wisdom of my union affiliation. And the 777 is a satisfactory replacement for the 727 I was flying in '89.
Safe flying
Some of you folks are missing the point, EWL included
Fact was, however we got into the'89 mess, whether it was ego, foolishness, protecting constitutional rights, lunacy or whatever, we had secret ballots that conclusively determined that we (ie.e the AFAP members) would hang together to the end. Win, lose or draw. To my clear recollection there were no conditions attached to the votes. Most followed the decision and a few didn't. Those who did stick together find it hard to forget those who voted one way and then ran the other.
Is there something I'm missing?
Anyway, my one major regret over the nearly 14 years is the blacklist put in place by the returnees. Most of our mates never did anyone any harm except to abide by their vote and a collective decision. That hardly seems a reason to deny them a career for ever.
As for life now...well I'm still an AFAP member and never have in 33 years doubted the wisdom of my union affiliation. And the 777 is a satisfactory replacement for the 727 I was flying in '89.
Safe flying
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Devonport Tasmania Australia
Posts: 1,837
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Elektra
You and I are talking about the same thing.
The secret ballots etc were a sign of solidarity, but nobody expected the crew to all go down with the ship.
Not one here could honestly say that solidarity to the end would have made a scrap of difference, indeed it would have made it harder fo those '89ers who rejoined after capiulation o do so, as more overseas pilots and GA promotions would be in hose seats that remained.
The die were cast, and the fat lady had taken voice.
The dispute was decidedly Quixoic, with the AFAP tiling at windmills. Forget pledges, hey were invalidated very early on because the rules only became apparent well into the dispute.
One cannot be held to a "contract" when they were never properly explained what the conditions clause contained.
Best all
And good night from a tired Loco Bloke.
You and I are talking about the same thing.
The secret ballots etc were a sign of solidarity, but nobody expected the crew to all go down with the ship.
Not one here could honestly say that solidarity to the end would have made a scrap of difference, indeed it would have made it harder fo those '89ers who rejoined after capiulation o do so, as more overseas pilots and GA promotions would be in hose seats that remained.
The die were cast, and the fat lady had taken voice.
The dispute was decidedly Quixoic, with the AFAP tiling at windmills. Forget pledges, hey were invalidated very early on because the rules only became apparent well into the dispute.
One cannot be held to a "contract" when they were never properly explained what the conditions clause contained.
Best all
And good night from a tired Loco Bloke.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Phnom Penh, Cambodia
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And for what it`s worth east West Loco, and I know it`s been said before, Ansett hadn`t reached the end of their contract. Australian had, but AN were mid way because of the leapfrog principle used in contract negotiations. They renewed in alternate years.
Is it any wonder that the fat man went in hard. AN threw down the gauntlet half way through their contract and as a consequence were in breach. They had agreed to the conditions therein for two years, and then wanted to change it half way through. If the companies had tried that on, the AFAP would have been horrified, but would have been justified in taking action.
To the average Joe, this might seem absurd, but not to the AFAP since they had never lost one.
That was about to change.
Is it any wonder that the fat man went in hard. AN threw down the gauntlet half way through their contract and as a consequence were in breach. They had agreed to the conditions therein for two years, and then wanted to change it half way through. If the companies had tried that on, the AFAP would have been horrified, but would have been justified in taking action.
To the average Joe, this might seem absurd, but not to the AFAP since they had never lost one.
That was about to change.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EWL, it's obvious you and the other posters on this page didn't take the time to read Spad's rather long story on page 5, which is a pity. Here's the crux of it:
Read it all. EWL. I'd be interested in hearing the "let's put 89l behind us and all be mates" 'spin' you put on it.
The two ... mates... sat down one night, both agreeing that they would never stoop to informing. But ... both were taken in and questioned ... about the other’s loyalty. One stuck to the promise he had made to his friend and said nothing.... The other, promised rapid promotion and an easy life in the ‘new order’, saw the way things were going ... and decided his first loyalty was to his family...
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have said this before on PPRune I will say it again, this war will not end until the last Pilot involved is dead!
I am not sure what some of the poster's here are going on about, and I frankly do not care. All I know is, I have a clear conscience and did what I believed was right thing and did not scab.
If some of the people here don't like it, that's too bad, what are you going to do? Sack me!
Because I did the right thing, I never got the opportunity to obtain a command, the junior scabs got my command instead. Also I am not particularly interested in anything that "Clive" has to say. The more observant people here may have noticed that I have never responded to any of his posts.
Firstly, I am one of the so called "dirty dozen", and I am proud to be one of them!
As a senior F/O, I had plenty of chances to "do the wrong thing". I chose to hang in "there", even in late December 1989, when I realised that some of our leaders had changed sides , I still stuck by my "guns". I knew we had lost but there was no way I would change sides. I was the guy that gave the "Fat Man" his knickname back in 1985. (just ask Jim)
During the "dispute" we were supposedly fighting for our jobs back. The AFAP asked me to resign, I "Resigned", they asked me, not to "scab", I did not SCAB. During the dispute when some of the senior AFAP figures tossed in the towel, we were told that "it was OK as they were working from the inside to fix the problem"
When the AFAP told us it was "OK" now to apply, I received the same response as everyone else, basically, "get stuffed!"
About a year later (after going through the same recruitment "B###Sh##" as an intake F/O), I was offered a postion in Melbourne
as an "intake F/O". I was stripped of any recognition of previous service.
I think you can, "get the idea".
Here are my responses to some of the posts by "The posters", I think some of them are probably the guys who were going to fix things from the inside.
To Ted Hunter,
Are you for real?
Ted Hunter
Clive and Zoolander
it took courage and common sense to recover your positions in 1990,not everyone chose to jump off that cliff with them.
You do'nt need to qualify what was a great decision on your parts.
Your efforts and personalities was appreciated by all of us.
Sniffer Dog
Interesting Clive and capt Zoo's bleatings about not being employable because of low time airlines etc, etc.
** These were Clive's words not mine
A very junior F/O (actually he wasn't chkd out on type-his first) went O/S with the rest of us in late '89 and became an F/O with a SE Asian carrier at the time, took his wife and new born with him DID it very hard for a while BUT had the support of his peers for his GUTS and CONVICTIONS.
** Good, I am pleased that he got what he wanted, but I don't see what that has to do with me.
This friend is now a 744 Captain and is only 36 yrs old so much for the "bull" of not being employable because of low time.
** Good on him!
Amos2
Yes, well said Sniffer!...Clive,Zoo,and their ilk really are .... wonders aren't they?
About time they accepted their lot, stopped trying to justify themselves, got on with life and accepted the fact that they will never be accepted for anything other than what they are!
And what is that Amos2?
What would you recommend that the next generation do when asked by their union to resign their jobs! Will you tell them that after 17 Months of fighting for their jobs back, they will be treated the same way as the scabs if they dare to accept them.
I am not sure what some of the poster's here are going on about, and I frankly do not care. All I know is, I have a clear conscience and did what I believed was right thing and did not scab.
If some of the people here don't like it, that's too bad, what are you going to do? Sack me!
Because I did the right thing, I never got the opportunity to obtain a command, the junior scabs got my command instead. Also I am not particularly interested in anything that "Clive" has to say. The more observant people here may have noticed that I have never responded to any of his posts.
Firstly, I am one of the so called "dirty dozen", and I am proud to be one of them!
As a senior F/O, I had plenty of chances to "do the wrong thing". I chose to hang in "there", even in late December 1989, when I realised that some of our leaders had changed sides , I still stuck by my "guns". I knew we had lost but there was no way I would change sides. I was the guy that gave the "Fat Man" his knickname back in 1985. (just ask Jim)
During the "dispute" we were supposedly fighting for our jobs back. The AFAP asked me to resign, I "Resigned", they asked me, not to "scab", I did not SCAB. During the dispute when some of the senior AFAP figures tossed in the towel, we were told that "it was OK as they were working from the inside to fix the problem"
When the AFAP told us it was "OK" now to apply, I received the same response as everyone else, basically, "get stuffed!"
About a year later (after going through the same recruitment "B###Sh##" as an intake F/O), I was offered a postion in Melbourne
as an "intake F/O". I was stripped of any recognition of previous service.
I think you can, "get the idea".
Here are my responses to some of the posts by "The posters", I think some of them are probably the guys who were going to fix things from the inside.
To Ted Hunter,
Are you for real?
Ted Hunter
Clive and Zoolander
it took courage and common sense to recover your positions in 1990,not everyone chose to jump off that cliff with them.
You do'nt need to qualify what was a great decision on your parts.
Your efforts and personalities was appreciated by all of us.
Sniffer Dog
Interesting Clive and capt Zoo's bleatings about not being employable because of low time airlines etc, etc.
** These were Clive's words not mine
A very junior F/O (actually he wasn't chkd out on type-his first) went O/S with the rest of us in late '89 and became an F/O with a SE Asian carrier at the time, took his wife and new born with him DID it very hard for a while BUT had the support of his peers for his GUTS and CONVICTIONS.
** Good, I am pleased that he got what he wanted, but I don't see what that has to do with me.
This friend is now a 744 Captain and is only 36 yrs old so much for the "bull" of not being employable because of low time.
** Good on him!
Amos2
Yes, well said Sniffer!...Clive,Zoo,and their ilk really are .... wonders aren't they?
About time they accepted their lot, stopped trying to justify themselves, got on with life and accepted the fact that they will never be accepted for anything other than what they are!
And what is that Amos2?
What would you recommend that the next generation do when asked by their union to resign their jobs! Will you tell them that after 17 Months of fighting for their jobs back, they will be treated the same way as the scabs if they dare to accept them.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Sydney
Age: 60
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From what I can see from this Capt Zoolander went back after the AFAP said "go for it" [March 1990?] therefore I cannot see what Amos 2 etc. have a problem with.
I can understand why some did not re apply.
I am Qantas since before 89 so watched from the side luckily. Thanks to the late AIPA pres and others we had already split from the AFAP for good reasons.
A question : what if at every vote you voted NOT to resign and go back to work because you could see it was never going to work?
ie: was the vote to resign 100%? [I doubt it!]
I can understand why some did not re apply.
I am Qantas since before 89 so watched from the side luckily. Thanks to the late AIPA pres and others we had already split from the AFAP for good reasons.
A question : what if at every vote you voted NOT to resign and go back to work because you could see it was never going to work?
ie: was the vote to resign 100%? [I doubt it!]
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Phnom Penh, Cambodia
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tankengine,
Good question, because there was NO vote taken on whether to resign.
In fact, we were told at midnight, ten hours before the AFAP put us all out of a job, that the resignations would NOT be used. They would be waved in front of the management to frighten them into submission. No further contact was made with the membership prior to tendering those resignations, i.e., they were tendered WITHOUT the knowledge of those who signed them.
Can you blame anyone for going back under those circumstances, and in retrospect would anyone ever trust their bloody union, or sign anything so stupid?
The only surprise to me is that all the slots weren`t filled by 1100 that day!
Good question, because there was NO vote taken on whether to resign.
In fact, we were told at midnight, ten hours before the AFAP put us all out of a job, that the resignations would NOT be used. They would be waved in front of the management to frighten them into submission. No further contact was made with the membership prior to tendering those resignations, i.e., they were tendered WITHOUT the knowledge of those who signed them.
Can you blame anyone for going back under those circumstances, and in retrospect would anyone ever trust their bloody union, or sign anything so stupid?
The only surprise to me is that all the slots weren`t filled by 1100 that day!
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Devonport Tasmania Australia
Posts: 1,837
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
fubaar
I have read what spad wrote - in full and found it very erudite and to the point.
God knows the hurt that has affected all involved for both sides.
The most important military battles of all time involving Australians were in the end for nought. This was another.
This was a civilain battle, but nearly as bloody in some ways.
Not for one second do I expect all of you to run out and hug each other.
Please read what was written by me and others.
The battle was unwinable from the start. Some chose to recognise this and go back, some ignored and others realised and still fought to the death.
It is about mates, but it is also about familes and unfortunately in some cases greed and opportunism.
Rationalise for me please the ethics of the TN '89er who was operating his own DeHavilland Dove MBW DPO on charter during the dispute at above premium seat prices with his FA wife I believe as cabin crew? Did any of this opportunistic revenue find its way back into the fighting funds? That gentleman, and I suspect a few others would have made an absolute motza.
It could also be asked if the striking pilots had the right to ruin the livelyhoods of thousands of fellow Australians in the first place. Hundreds of small tourist businesses and even large hotels such as Hadleys in Hobart went into bankrupcy or receivership beacuse of the action of their countrymen. Unfortunately for even more, they would have gone the same way if some did not return. Take what was lost by the pilots as a group and try multiplying by many thousand times to get close to the losses suffered by businesses across the country.
THAT is the lost point. Staying out was a heartfelt decision for many that changed their lives forever, just as going back was a huge wrench for others. The silent majority quietly got on with rebuilding their lives, shattered and bloodied by the dispute but with barely a whimper.
Also, while you all conspire to snipe at each other over a situation you had no control over 14 years ago, you are leaving yourselves wide open for a repeat of enforced restructuring. This will only lead to the same set of events coming back into play.
This whole thing nearly shagged the country 14 years ago, and guess what guys??
IT WAS NOT THE FAULT OF ANY SINGLE ONE OF YOU!!!!
Please - all - get over it. It is done and the most important thing you can possibly do is to agree to disagree, lose the venom and start watching out for the industry together. We all need you.
There is no Fat Man now - the Silver Bodgie is a mere fart in the 2003 bath, and the excesses of the TNT/News years are gone, unfortunately taking a magnificent Airline down with them.
Brave new world people, just forget if you can, forgive if you have it in you but most of all never allow it to happen again.
best ALL
EWL
I have read what spad wrote - in full and found it very erudite and to the point.
God knows the hurt that has affected all involved for both sides.
The most important military battles of all time involving Australians were in the end for nought. This was another.
This was a civilain battle, but nearly as bloody in some ways.
Not for one second do I expect all of you to run out and hug each other.
Please read what was written by me and others.
The battle was unwinable from the start. Some chose to recognise this and go back, some ignored and others realised and still fought to the death.
It is about mates, but it is also about familes and unfortunately in some cases greed and opportunism.
Rationalise for me please the ethics of the TN '89er who was operating his own DeHavilland Dove MBW DPO on charter during the dispute at above premium seat prices with his FA wife I believe as cabin crew? Did any of this opportunistic revenue find its way back into the fighting funds? That gentleman, and I suspect a few others would have made an absolute motza.
It could also be asked if the striking pilots had the right to ruin the livelyhoods of thousands of fellow Australians in the first place. Hundreds of small tourist businesses and even large hotels such as Hadleys in Hobart went into bankrupcy or receivership beacuse of the action of their countrymen. Unfortunately for even more, they would have gone the same way if some did not return. Take what was lost by the pilots as a group and try multiplying by many thousand times to get close to the losses suffered by businesses across the country.
THAT is the lost point. Staying out was a heartfelt decision for many that changed their lives forever, just as going back was a huge wrench for others. The silent majority quietly got on with rebuilding their lives, shattered and bloodied by the dispute but with barely a whimper.
Also, while you all conspire to snipe at each other over a situation you had no control over 14 years ago, you are leaving yourselves wide open for a repeat of enforced restructuring. This will only lead to the same set of events coming back into play.
This whole thing nearly shagged the country 14 years ago, and guess what guys??
IT WAS NOT THE FAULT OF ANY SINGLE ONE OF YOU!!!!
Please - all - get over it. It is done and the most important thing you can possibly do is to agree to disagree, lose the venom and start watching out for the industry together. We all need you.
There is no Fat Man now - the Silver Bodgie is a mere fart in the 2003 bath, and the excesses of the TNT/News years are gone, unfortunately taking a magnificent Airline down with them.
Brave new world people, just forget if you can, forgive if you have it in you but most of all never allow it to happen again.
best ALL
EWL
To Capt. Zoolander and Clive - Thanks so much for your very imformative posts. You have put forward a perspecive of the dispute that many of us have not heard before. My Question to either one of you is, did any of the "13" that were accepted back to Ansett ever get a command? If not, then, what reason did Ansett give you for being denied your rightful career progression?
Now your answer leads me to another question to PPK. ( this is nothing personal against you , it's just you seem to be a current spokesman for the "one's that went back"). If these guy's were deined commands, did you ever speak up against this injustice?
If not, then why not?
Cheers Sid.
Now your answer leads me to another question to PPK. ( this is nothing personal against you , it's just you seem to be a current spokesman for the "one's that went back"). If these guy's were deined commands, did you ever speak up against this injustice?
If not, then why not?
Cheers Sid.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: in a suitcase
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry EWL but I take umbrage at the fact that we collectively were responsible for businesses going to the wall. DON'T FORGET THE PILOTS WERE GETTING WELL AND TRUELY SCREWED BY THE ACCORD. The Silver Bodgie's baby!
While you and your mates on overtime, shift allowance and all the other BS you and your union mates could dream up, you well and truely had your snouts in the trough clearing as you said in a previous post $2500 per fortnight. Some pilots only dreamt about that sort of take home pay.
And before you get carried away with your next "bleeding heart salvo" my last Group Cert AN '88-"89 was 88K and I was a TCAPT.
Give us a break if you can't post something sensible DON'T.
This will not be over until all the participants are in pine boxes - sorry
While you and your mates on overtime, shift allowance and all the other BS you and your union mates could dream up, you well and truely had your snouts in the trough clearing as you said in a previous post $2500 per fortnight. Some pilots only dreamt about that sort of take home pay.
And before you get carried away with your next "bleeding heart salvo" my last Group Cert AN '88-"89 was 88K and I was a TCAPT.
Give us a break if you can't post something sensible DON'T.
This will not be over until all the participants are in pine boxes - sorry
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: vh
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EWL said
A very inconsiderate and thoughtless statement on behalf of the more than 100,000 Australian war dead.
Lest We Forget
The most important military battles of all time involving Australians were in the end for nought.
Lest We Forget
Guest
Posts: n/a
EWL – you say
“The battle was unwinable from the start. Some chose to recognise this and go back, some ignored and others realised and still fought to the death.”
At the beginning, the “battle” was about a negotiation of our working conditions and remuneration.
As the dispute unfolded, it became a battle for our professional aviation lives.
Most of us recognized what it had become, and precisely for that reason MOST of us resolved not to “go back” without a negotiated settlement.
A few saw an opportunity to gain an advantage at the expense of their former friends and colleagues.
Your characterization of the scabs as being simply those who “chose to recognize this and go back” fails to recognize that this dispute was about far more than a simple salary dispute. In fact you allude to this point in many of your posts.
Do you really believe that without phnompenhkid and his ilk the dispute would have ended with the exile or blackban of 80% of the Australian RPT pilot workforce?
“The battle was unwinable from the start. Some chose to recognise this and go back, some ignored and others realised and still fought to the death.”
At the beginning, the “battle” was about a negotiation of our working conditions and remuneration.
As the dispute unfolded, it became a battle for our professional aviation lives.
Most of us recognized what it had become, and precisely for that reason MOST of us resolved not to “go back” without a negotiated settlement.
A few saw an opportunity to gain an advantage at the expense of their former friends and colleagues.
Your characterization of the scabs as being simply those who “chose to recognize this and go back” fails to recognize that this dispute was about far more than a simple salary dispute. In fact you allude to this point in many of your posts.
Do you really believe that without phnompenhkid and his ilk the dispute would have ended with the exile or blackban of 80% of the Australian RPT pilot workforce?
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 543
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Even though some totally misinformed Americans might disagree, the vast majority of the Australian population lives today in what must arguably be the most free and equal society for the common man ever to grace this earth. This has come to pass only because citizen soldiers have in the past died to protect that very society from enemies who had very different plans for the country and its inhabitants had they won. (Let me cite our Japanese neighbours and their ‘South East Asian Co-prosperity Sphere’ only sixty years ago as the prime example, although anyone with any doubts about the life we might had lead under the Germans had they won either World War need only take a quick trip to the movies and check out The Pianist.)
That’s what makes me shake my head in sheer wonder at people who say: “The most important military battles of all time involving Australians were in the end for nought.”. EWL, think about what you just said. It’s so ridiculous, it’s on a par in the reality stakes with your comments about 1989.
That’s what makes me shake my head in sheer wonder at people who say: “The most important military battles of all time involving Australians were in the end for nought.”. EWL, think about what you just said. It’s so ridiculous, it’s on a par in the reality stakes with your comments about 1989.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EWL
As a student quoting history your knowledge is fairly limited. The events of the famous shearers strikes late 1800’s and during the early part of the 1900’s, are still part of Australian folk law, and had continuing affects on the participants and their families long after most of them had passed away.
The events of 89, love or hate, are now part of history and will affect the life of the participants and their families for a long time. Too many good people were grievously hurt and scarred both financially and emotionally.
It is totally naïve to expect people to forget, most will learn to cope with it, but most will never forget. It’s just not going to happen so get on with life and accept your lot. If you happen to be from the wrong side of the fence I guess you will just have to learn live with it in your own way.
To compare yourself or 1989 with Australian military history is sick.
As a student quoting history your knowledge is fairly limited. The events of the famous shearers strikes late 1800’s and during the early part of the 1900’s, are still part of Australian folk law, and had continuing affects on the participants and their families long after most of them had passed away.
The events of 89, love or hate, are now part of history and will affect the life of the participants and their families for a long time. Too many good people were grievously hurt and scarred both financially and emotionally.
It is totally naïve to expect people to forget, most will learn to cope with it, but most will never forget. It’s just not going to happen so get on with life and accept your lot. If you happen to be from the wrong side of the fence I guess you will just have to learn live with it in your own way.
To compare yourself or 1989 with Australian military history is sick.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Age: 84
Posts: 492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Too right, Snowballs, the 89 dispute was in no way connected to Australia's military history. It began as a biennial review of the pay structure of TN Technical Crew, was seen by the greedy, opportunist hierarchy of the AFAP as a Heaven-sent opportunity to separate themselves from the "Accord" so beloved of the Silver Bodgie, and degenerated into a free-for-all fight for money by a group of individuals who mis-judged their political clout and popular appeal. The fact that the AFAP involved AN is, to my mind, the most amazing example of naivete I witnessed in decades. The AN crews' review was due the following year, yet the Federation wonders to this day why the Fat Man and his off-siders spat the collective dummy when confronted with the situation NOT OF THEIR MAKING. Just how stupid can you get?
As for EWL's comments, just take the time to read between his lines. If he doesn't consider me impertinent for putting my interpretation on them, it seems to me that he is trying to pour oil on very troubled waters by drawing the analogy between military mates and the pilots involved, with their respective and collective care for each other. There are military men just as opportunist and greedy as the AFAP showed itself to be, but he points out that there are also heroes on both sides. I use the word "heroes" NOT in the perjorative sense it has come to mean when used by the '89ers. Like many others not directly part of the dispute, but VERY involved and affected, his love of the industry has never wavered, any more than it has been partisan toward any group or airline. It is often easier for those of us on the sidelines to see a bigger, and clearer, picture than those of you "up close and personal". Just give him the respect his loyalty over the years deserves.
Kind regards to ALL,
TheNightOwl.
As for EWL's comments, just take the time to read between his lines. If he doesn't consider me impertinent for putting my interpretation on them, it seems to me that he is trying to pour oil on very troubled waters by drawing the analogy between military mates and the pilots involved, with their respective and collective care for each other. There are military men just as opportunist and greedy as the AFAP showed itself to be, but he points out that there are also heroes on both sides. I use the word "heroes" NOT in the perjorative sense it has come to mean when used by the '89ers. Like many others not directly part of the dispute, but VERY involved and affected, his love of the industry has never wavered, any more than it has been partisan toward any group or airline. It is often easier for those of us on the sidelines to see a bigger, and clearer, picture than those of you "up close and personal". Just give him the respect his loyalty over the years deserves.
Kind regards to ALL,
TheNightOwl.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Devonport Tasmania Australia
Posts: 1,837
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nightowl - Thank you for correcting the spin on a ball that obviously came out of the back of my hand. That was the point I so poorly tried to get across. I appreciate the comments very much, however I am just another number as the tag says.
Bentwings - Great Military battles. Read Gallipoli - a magnificent defeat in a war eventually won, but run by British buffoons with total power. Long Tan - battle won - war thrown away through de-escalation. etc. There is absolutely no disrespect meant in that to those lost overseas and at home in the Services, and I struggle to find any way that offense could be taken in that way.
The shearers strike was not in my recollection a Military action.
Betelgeuse - Yes, it was indeed started as negotiations from the AFAP side, but TN and in particular AN and the slime ball were in no mood for negotiation.
The restructure was planned, and was going to happen no matter what.
Snowballs - I would no more compare myself with anyone involved in the proud Australian Military history than bump my backside on the moon. It is not my place to compare myself to those braver than I will ever be. You draw far too long a bow, and I find THAT offensive. I must have been studying English while you were studying folk lore. See me after class.
Leftfrontside - The effect of the strike is well documented on the community, and the question was asked many times over who had a right to do that but please read the bold print - IT WAS NOT THE FAULT OF ANY ONE OF YOU!!!!!
At the time of the strike, when we were innundated with thousands of very upset punters, yes - we were all very peed off that the strike had happened at all. When the initial smoke cleared, the true villians' black hats could be seen and the changes started to rain on down.
Also, the $2500 was an example of how screwed the industry was. That was one huge fortnight, and the point was that AN was not putting on staff. I left AN ADL after 11 weeks and got a job back here in travel, as no marriage could withstand the hours required. No or few days off and leave in darkness - return in darkness even with daylight saving. 153 hour fortnights are not funny. By the way, the grade 1 Traffic base rate was about $14.00 and hour. Easy street?? I do not think so.
The guts of it is that as said, but ignored, the whole thing was manufactured and a fait acomplis before negotiations ever started. There is a great deal of blame to be laid, but at the feet of the Airlines and the Bodgie Government.
I notice that the mention of the TN '89er who profited from the situation with his DHD running charters was studiously ignored. No opinions on that, or was the entry just skimmed without taking it all in context?
Please read the full post before you jump in, good people. One thing may and usually does relate to another.
I have no axe to grind as I have accepted that it will do absolutely no good at all.
What has also been missed is the worry of a similar restructuring as I mentioned. The Airlines are fighting a declining market, but are you gentlemen an ladies in a position to provide a united front against a new hatchet job? I feel the division has left you very vunerable.
Best all
EWL
Edited for grammar. Now I am going to have to see myself after class too.
EWL
Bentwings - Great Military battles. Read Gallipoli - a magnificent defeat in a war eventually won, but run by British buffoons with total power. Long Tan - battle won - war thrown away through de-escalation. etc. There is absolutely no disrespect meant in that to those lost overseas and at home in the Services, and I struggle to find any way that offense could be taken in that way.
The shearers strike was not in my recollection a Military action.
Betelgeuse - Yes, it was indeed started as negotiations from the AFAP side, but TN and in particular AN and the slime ball were in no mood for negotiation.
The restructure was planned, and was going to happen no matter what.
Snowballs - I would no more compare myself with anyone involved in the proud Australian Military history than bump my backside on the moon. It is not my place to compare myself to those braver than I will ever be. You draw far too long a bow, and I find THAT offensive. I must have been studying English while you were studying folk lore. See me after class.
Leftfrontside - The effect of the strike is well documented on the community, and the question was asked many times over who had a right to do that but please read the bold print - IT WAS NOT THE FAULT OF ANY ONE OF YOU!!!!!
At the time of the strike, when we were innundated with thousands of very upset punters, yes - we were all very peed off that the strike had happened at all. When the initial smoke cleared, the true villians' black hats could be seen and the changes started to rain on down.
Also, the $2500 was an example of how screwed the industry was. That was one huge fortnight, and the point was that AN was not putting on staff. I left AN ADL after 11 weeks and got a job back here in travel, as no marriage could withstand the hours required. No or few days off and leave in darkness - return in darkness even with daylight saving. 153 hour fortnights are not funny. By the way, the grade 1 Traffic base rate was about $14.00 and hour. Easy street?? I do not think so.
The guts of it is that as said, but ignored, the whole thing was manufactured and a fait acomplis before negotiations ever started. There is a great deal of blame to be laid, but at the feet of the Airlines and the Bodgie Government.
I notice that the mention of the TN '89er who profited from the situation with his DHD running charters was studiously ignored. No opinions on that, or was the entry just skimmed without taking it all in context?
Please read the full post before you jump in, good people. One thing may and usually does relate to another.
I have no axe to grind as I have accepted that it will do absolutely no good at all.
What has also been missed is the worry of a similar restructuring as I mentioned. The Airlines are fighting a declining market, but are you gentlemen an ladies in a position to provide a united front against a new hatchet job? I feel the division has left you very vunerable.
Best all
EWL
Edited for grammar. Now I am going to have to see myself after class too.
EWL
Last edited by Eastwest Loco; 1st May 2003 at 19:54.