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Ex-AN drivers taken for a ride???

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Ex-AN drivers taken for a ride???

Old 16th Dec 2002, 02:25
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Question Ex-AN drivers taken for a ride???

Heard from the "Swanston Street cleaners" over the weekend that a certain Western District (Victoria) fellow with aviation interests, has been revalidating some ex-Ansett pilots in the simulator. Just wondering if it is correct that these blokes have been promised a "good job based in Australia", but have not been told that they are possibly being used to oust several expats already working for a small Pacific airline? Can it be confirmed that these pilots are apparently being offered a deal, at less money than is presently being paid to the current pilots.? In these circumstances, where no dispute exists between the existing pilots and the airline and, into what category would the ex-Ansett pilots fall should they take the job.

Just hope you guys are listening out there, and are fully aware of what's going on. Nothing worse than signing a dodgy contract, with hidden small print, and end up working ya butt off to fill some other bludgers wallet!!
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Old 17th Dec 2002, 23:49
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It appears that your post is more fact than fiction. The Gentleman concerned used to enjoy a lurid distaste for his present companions to the point of obsession. However it appears he has traded his morals for money. The fact that this group is attempting to undermine a group of guys who have no dispute with the Company but have only spent their days repairing the damage done previously by the said gentleman. It becomes easy to see how the people of the Pacific have come to distrust the whiteman. I hope for their sake the powers to be look back into recent history and realise who has had their best interests at heart and who hasn't. Although I'd like to think we have heard the last of this I suspect we haven't.
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Old 18th Dec 2002, 00:33
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Would it be impolite to ask which small pacific airline is involved?
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Old 18th Dec 2002, 21:07
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Am I reading this right?

A former Ansett Management Captain (possibly having been working there during the dispute in 89 and possibly very very high up on the B737?) now working for a Pacific Airline (starting with P perhaps?) is trying to get his own yes-men mates into the same airline by undercutting the current wages/conditions and getting those already employed removed?

Not only would this individual go down in my books as a true low-life bottomfeeder if its true but just remember.It's a long drive from Tullamarine to Geelong!

I understand the country's GDP barely covers the lease costs for the aircraft but to do that is repugnant and true to form for some people.
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Old 19th Dec 2002, 01:44
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Home Brew is very close to the truth.
Capt Moonlight is spot-on in all that he says.
Timmeee's comments are very valid, but his ident is slightly off.
'The Gentleman' in his former life signed off as Gilligan of Gilligan's Island, and he was not an Ansett management type, so it is indeed surprising that he has made a pact with the devil, so to speak. If recent ex-Ansett Captains have parted with their own money to get this character to reval them in the simulator, they should perhaps ask their accountants if they can write it off against their future earnings as taxi drivers or waiters or whatever.
The airline is very small, the owner nation also small, so we know exactly what is going on.
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Old 19th Dec 2002, 02:13
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I dont believe this!!!! Well yes, I suppose I do. I do know the small airline involved and the rest of the details. But Woomera says ( as his/her right) we can not go into 89 talk, with out risk of death. All I can say is, once again, for reasons I have never understood, they remain protected, to proceed,and profit, without any comeback. This was the only avenue, buit it has been stopped as well. When I come back next time, I want what ever power they have, or whatever "magic dust" they possess.

It seems what ever they do is Ok, but if you want to discuss it, well, no, thats all too much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

Oh well, I post this at my own risk, and if I am band, well see ya all!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 19th Dec 2002, 14:04
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Hey, SOPS, we can and are discussing it, so far without descent into any '89 sledging. What _The _Gentleman is cooking up is doomed to failure; if not by non-payment or very late payment by him to his misguided recruits for services rendered, then most likely by treatment that will be meted out once they leave the protection of these fair shores for a night or two in this Pacific Paradise. _The _Gentleman has made a few enemies out there in his time, and they do deal with those who cross them in a fairly basic fashion. This would be a fact which should not be lost on him if he reflects on what happened to him elsewhere
in his sad career.
And just how is he going to get all this past the regulatory authority, which as I understand it, is quite happy with the current crewing arrangements? He would need at least some cooperation and handover procedure from the existing C&T people, plus route checks etc , before his own C&T could meet the required ICAO criteria. (ICAO right now is taking quite an interest in the Pacific region in general).
Let us not pillory this guy, or his gullible newfound mates; let us pity them for their delusions - and maybe SOPS you need to trust in Karma - it may be slow, but it's bloody good stuff.
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Old 19th Dec 2002, 15:18
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You will not be banned for discussing '89 events or the consequences of the AN collapse, whilst you do not, as you have not now, or as far as I can remember, descended to sledging.

If there is skulduggery afoot and it needs to be exposed then here is a good place, as long as it is done with discretion and regard for the rights of others and the law.

There is no "magic dust" for either side here and whilst there may appear to be no comeback out there, if we talk to each other here, we at least can go some way to keep the bastards, whoever they be, on whatever side, "honest".
If there is a "magic dust" it is the internet available to all.

But to do that we must keep talking to each other as you are here, in a civilised manner.

If we cannot do that then we will indeed lose this "magic" opportunity.

Since a recent Australian Court judgement on the "internet" the rules have changed dramatically.
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Old 21st Dec 2002, 00:24
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Mr Fishhead and his band of sandcrabs are indeed walking a dangerous path with these dirty, underhanded tactics. IF they were successful, what`s to stop ANOTHER group of mercenaries from doing the SAME thing to them?!! Undercut THEIR salary by a grand or 1500 bucks.

If management accept Fishhead`s offer based SOLELY on reduced salaries, then they`ll be sure to follow the same line WHEN a similar discount deal is offered.
And be very sure it will, Fishy.

Just to be CERTAIN tho`, maybe you and your sandcrabs should offer to fly there now, for FREE!!

But then again, there would probably be some pilots who would be willing to PAY for the experience, just to get some time on type.

And once again, this tiny airline will enter another turbulent period IF Fishhead`s plans go ahead.
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Old 21st Dec 2002, 11:47
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I wish somebody would have the guts and spill the beans. You all sound like either a management pilot or a training captain.
' I know something that you don't know " attitude.
A Merry Xmas and happy new year to you all.
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Old 21st Dec 2002, 22:18
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I agree WASA.

Racking my brains but it isn't easy! The whole Ansett 737 management team was loathed for its bastardry.

My favourite was Swampy and his regular chastisement of F/Os for the most menial of indiscretions.

His classic was the dresssing down of F/Os looking to have their logbooks stamped a few days before the Sept capitulation. Alluding to a jumping ship mentality! Weeks later he was in SQ on the 777.

I am sure his SQ application was in well before Sept.

There must be an obscure little park in Keilor somewhere. I propose a monument to the achievments of AN Flight Management. In bronze of course, to perpetuate their legacy for future generations and gloriously inscribed with the words-

"Lesser Men We Have Not Met".

Sadly, nothing learnt, as present day Qantas Management would be well represented at the ribbon cutting ceremony!
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Old 21st Dec 2002, 22:57
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This is no management wind-up. Comments above are from those of us (mostly line pilots) who are concerned that Gilligan and his new found chums will con the money men with promises of huge wage savings just long enough to de-stabilize our little airline. Once established he will of course move the money goal posts and if he runs to usual form, the first time he has a problem and does a dummy-spit, he will seek revenge or to blackmail the airline's owners with threats of AOC suspension. Only problem is, next time there is ANY cessation of service, we lose our major client and the airline folds - permanently. Gilligan would of course be ready to take over the client's flying on his own behalf, as I am sure his interests probably include some sort of shelf AOC plan. Do I need to spell it out any clearer without spelling the ident of the airline and persons involved??
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Old 21st Dec 2002, 23:49
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There are fleas amongst the pilot fraternity willing bite and suck the blood out of any unfortunate they come upon. In unmentionable bygone days there was some loyalty and honor amongst friends and fellow pilots. The industry (from a working point of view) is in a mess because of the lack of honor amongst fleas / thieves who only see short term personal gain and are blind to the hurt and harm done to others …………… a tragedy if this is allowed to happen
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Old 22nd Dec 2002, 02:13
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Why are we playing games here?
The island is Nauru and the airline, of course, is Air Nauru.
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Old 22nd Dec 2002, 02:44
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Does this mean they'll be going back to Guam?
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Old 22nd Dec 2002, 13:49
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Now let me get this straight... someone is alleging that a person, unnamed and ungender specific, (I’m attempting to be REALLY Politically Correct here, chaps and chapesses, hoping I won’t offend our much esteemed moderator, the Spear Thrower).

Where was I? Oh yes… someone is alleging that a person, unnamed and ungender specific, who has been a, shall we say, First Division stay-at-home player in the Australian Aviation 'sceen' these last twelve years, is alleged to be acting, shall we say, in a less than totally altruistic manner in his dealings with colleagues in a less favourable position than his good self.

Some might even be alleging that he could be less than 100% above board in his actions. Indeed, it seems he might be taking advantage, not just of his employer, but his ex-colleagues as well, who he is allegedly inviting to join him in what some might call (yet another) heroic enterprise undercutting the living conditions of pilots in another country.

They say experience counts for everything in this game. Well, quite a few of his potential recruits are certainly experienced in what he seems to be planning. What surprises me is that some should express surprise that he (and they?) might become involved in something as underhand as this seems to be.

Myself, the phrase ‘leopards not changing their spots’ comes immediately to mind.
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Old 22nd Dec 2002, 16:06
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I might be reading this wrong (I know no more than what I'm reading here), but it sounded to me like it was one of YOUR mob (E.G. pre some date or other) recruiting recently unemployed AN guys.

Just how I read it, correct me if wrong.

But that would mean someone from that era not being a saintly being of the highest integrity...

Surely not!
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Old 23rd Dec 2002, 00:56
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Let's put it into its correct context.

Yes, Wiz, your assessment is correct.

Captain Fishhead, or Gilligan as nominated by Chookchaser reportedly enjoyed a somewhat "checkered" past on a small island nation in the past - I think the term "square peg in a round hole" was used.

Having had to indignantly leave their employ, Fishhead aka Gilligan has now decided to plot his REVENGE on all the expats currently employed.

What can he do?

"Ah yes" - he knows that there are DESPERATE "men" in Australia who will (and have previously, as their history shows) stooped to the lowest depths of opportunism and immorality, by shafting Australian pilots before simply to further themselves at the expense of others.
Strange thing is, Fishhead aka Gilligan HATED their guts with a vengeance, for what they did to HIM and the other 78% of Australian airline (and not only TAA) pilots, 13 years ago.

But for the sake of VENGEANCE, he's now willing to enlist their services!

Seem like a stable individual to head the pilot group out there? Someone management could truly trust?

Another FACT of this case is that the pilots NOW working for Air Nauru, are supporting families on a contract that has only recently been mutually agreed upon and accepted.
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Old 23rd Dec 2002, 05:42
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What if?

What if you were local management of this airline?...or what if you were a local pilot?
Should any of these issues be important? Issues that do not involve them, ie the '89 thingy? (whatever it was)
What if this "Gilligan" really is offering this airline some pilots who would cost the airline half than the ones already there regardless of where these pilots are from or what their backgrounds are so long as they meet all the requirements?
Would it be okay for management of this airline to employ these characters? Or should they sought permission of '89ers from the other side first?
If their airline is struggling, shouldn't they seek every reasonable means to improve their situation without a compromise with legalities etc?
It is their business after all and the bottom line is theirs.
I believe any business reserves the right to make these decisions. Don't you?
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Old 23rd Dec 2002, 05:45
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Apologies, Wiz… But I did start my post with “Now let me get this straight…”. It would seem I didn’t, at least in regard to the main player in this little drama. “get it straight”.

I don’t think anyone on what you refer to as “YOUR (ie, my) mob” would assert for one moment that everyone of the 78% majority was “saintly’. One comes to mind who might be said to be a little Thinnish in his business dealings in a closely-related field to the subject of this thread, and I’m sure that among the 78% there could be found any number of people who wouldn’t come out looking like Mother Theresas if their private lives were put under the microscope. However, I won’t retreat from my comments about the people this “Gilligan” individual seems to be hoping to use in his venture.

I don’t know who “Gilligan” is and it would probably mean little to me to be told his name, as it would be unlikely that I would recognise it. He sounds, from what little I’ve read of him here, a rather embittered and not very nice person. (I don’t know what led to the ill-feeling between him and the rest of the pilot group in question.) If he’s attempting to do what people here are asserting, it’s unforgivable. But, just as in that year-we-dare-not-mention-here, he won’t be able to get past Square One unless others, seeking short term personal gain at the expense of others, jump aboard his ill-starred ‘boat’. He’ll need a special type of person to join him in any such venture, and say what you like about his shortcomings, going on past performance, you can’t fault him in his choice of a candidate pool.

Regarding the doubtless many shortcomings of many on the 78% ‘stay outs’ in that year-we-dare-not-mention-here, I’m reminded of a comment that one of the two Eastern Airlines pilots who came out to Australia during that year-we-dare-not-mention-here. It’s best said with a long drawn out Southern (US) drawl. “Ya’ll cin cheat a man out of his life savin’s, sleep with his wife, even shoot his favourite huntin’ dawg, an’ he may one day forgive yuh… but no one will ever forgive yuh if ya’ll ever (delete unacceptable word/insert Politically Correct word)[i]‘hero’s’.”
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