Vb Wants Ya Baby!!
411A
Kaptin M, 411A would be so chuffed to know that he has become a CRM example in the negative sense to the Pprune universe. But I can't help but wonder wether 411A is just a virtual persona. I mean does this guy really act as his posts indicate? I know a couple of years back some Cathay pilots claimed they found out who he really was, due to the fact that online he appears to have a pathalogical hatred of CX pilots, but nobody has ever said if he lives up to his posts. I am interested to know if he does? After all, this is windup central!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Hi slice. I doubt that anyone would really enjoy being remembered as the antithesis of good CRM - even 411A.
After all it would cause all of his (many) espousings to fall into immediate question, if he were the self-confessed "square peg in the round hole", wouldn't it?!
411A comes from the era of pilots who immediately followed the post-WW2 airline recruits - his very noticeable "feature" seeming to be the fact that he was not able to work successfully in an airline in his home country (the USA), and was thus destined to be a "soldier of fortune" as an expat.
"Chuffed" as he might be at seeing his name raised in yet another forum, unfortunately it is NOT mentioned in a postive manner, but rather in a "DON'T be like him" advisory.
As a "virtual persona", he does an admirable job!!
We all love someone to hate - as long as that "someone" isn't ME!
Yes, the CX pilots did discover 411A's identity - but again, for every "character" on PPRuNe, there are probably 100 people in the REAL WORLD whom he/me/you represent in this fairyland.
There is no ONE person behind the personas played out here.
Just as Woomera has confessed to being multi-organic....I said ORGANIC....Kaptin M, 411A, Slasher, Amos, Binos, Keg, Gaunty, etc, etc, etc....are the literary morphs of PPRuNe-silent, living beings.
Each occasionally adding some (hopefully) interesting debate and wider horizons.
After all it would cause all of his (many) espousings to fall into immediate question, if he were the self-confessed "square peg in the round hole", wouldn't it?!
411A comes from the era of pilots who immediately followed the post-WW2 airline recruits - his very noticeable "feature" seeming to be the fact that he was not able to work successfully in an airline in his home country (the USA), and was thus destined to be a "soldier of fortune" as an expat.
"Chuffed" as he might be at seeing his name raised in yet another forum, unfortunately it is NOT mentioned in a postive manner, but rather in a "DON'T be like him" advisory.
As a "virtual persona", he does an admirable job!!
We all love someone to hate - as long as that "someone" isn't ME!
Yes, the CX pilots did discover 411A's identity - but again, for every "character" on PPRuNe, there are probably 100 people in the REAL WORLD whom he/me/you represent in this fairyland.
There is no ONE person behind the personas played out here.
Just as Woomera has confessed to being multi-organic....I said ORGANIC....Kaptin M, 411A, Slasher, Amos, Binos, Keg, Gaunty, etc, etc, etc....are the literary morphs of PPRuNe-silent, living beings.
Each occasionally adding some (hopefully) interesting debate and wider horizons.
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Gaunty
whoa there yourself, I don't know how you arrived at the fact that I have a tender ego, you could'nt be further from the mark.
I believe Woomera made reference to a fairly young Wellington Captain, and in the context of his post I thought it fairly reasonable to assume he was saying that a very young person could have a command on a ww2 bomber, as could the person who originally was the subject of this thread, have a command on a 73.
I was pointing out that alot has changed in the last 60 years, and VB have a wealth of experience at their disposal, if indeed, they wanted it. ( which they obviously don't )
whoa there yourself, I don't know how you arrived at the fact that I have a tender ego, you could'nt be further from the mark.
I believe Woomera made reference to a fairly young Wellington Captain, and in the context of his post I thought it fairly reasonable to assume he was saying that a very young person could have a command on a ww2 bomber, as could the person who originally was the subject of this thread, have a command on a 73.
I was pointing out that alot has changed in the last 60 years, and VB have a wealth of experience at their disposal, if indeed, they wanted it. ( which they obviously don't )
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Woomera
Reluctant as i am to say it, i am compelled to comment on your post about 18 year old WW2 pilots and those who introduced the jet age.
Firstly, there was a huge amount of WW2 pilots that never came home, along with their crews, totally due to lack of experience. That is to take nothing away from their courage, and commitment to the job at hand. Just stating a fact. Many of those guys were in those aircraft simply because of the logistics involved in training pilots. It is not a feasible argument to compare those guys and the operations they were undertaking with that of a modern airline and the safety of commercial paying passengers.
Secondly, you are quite true in saying that those fearless aviators who introduced the jet age had a sum total of zero hours experience on jets. It is also fair to say that large numbers of them died learning their craft. Along with many unfortunate passengers. The only reason that we can safely put 20 somethings in the left hand seat of a commercial jet is that the lessons learnt by those who went before us are written in blood and translated into the rules, regs, and SOP's we all now operate with. Not to mention the design rules and certification criteria that exist as a result of lessons learnt.
I want to be clear that i am not against young captains. I have supported the appointment of younger captains on several occasions. I was one once. I just want to make the point that (in my opinion)your argument is not a good one.
Reluctant as i am to say it, i am compelled to comment on your post about 18 year old WW2 pilots and those who introduced the jet age.
Firstly, there was a huge amount of WW2 pilots that never came home, along with their crews, totally due to lack of experience. That is to take nothing away from their courage, and commitment to the job at hand. Just stating a fact. Many of those guys were in those aircraft simply because of the logistics involved in training pilots. It is not a feasible argument to compare those guys and the operations they were undertaking with that of a modern airline and the safety of commercial paying passengers.
Secondly, you are quite true in saying that those fearless aviators who introduced the jet age had a sum total of zero hours experience on jets. It is also fair to say that large numbers of them died learning their craft. Along with many unfortunate passengers. The only reason that we can safely put 20 somethings in the left hand seat of a commercial jet is that the lessons learnt by those who went before us are written in blood and translated into the rules, regs, and SOP's we all now operate with. Not to mention the design rules and certification criteria that exist as a result of lessons learnt.
I want to be clear that i am not against young captains. I have supported the appointment of younger captains on several occasions. I was one once. I just want to make the point that (in my opinion)your argument is not a good one.
Last edited by Reverend Doctor Doug; 13th Jan 2003 at 05:09.
Was it the Beaufighter or the Hudson that had a VMCA 20KTs beyond the usual rotate speed? Put some bombs and rockets and a full load of fuel on and EFATO was always a crash.
Hell of a plane to learn the trade on!
Yep, Bomber Command lost more in training than on ops over Germany. Which is probably why Churchill insisted on multiple(near unsurvivable odds) tours for Colonials-another right Pommy bastard he was!
Weren't the bulk of airline pilots who evolved from WW2 off Dakotas and Catalinas?
Chalk and cheese to civillian ops though.
Hell of a plane to learn the trade on!
Yep, Bomber Command lost more in training than on ops over Germany. Which is probably why Churchill insisted on multiple(near unsurvivable odds) tours for Colonials-another right Pommy bastard he was!
Weren't the bulk of airline pilots who evolved from WW2 off Dakotas and Catalinas?
Chalk and cheese to civillian ops though.
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sounds like the "new age" has arrived.pilots soon to be phased out in favour of computer systems mngrs.(the FMC used to be a person sitting at a small table, drawing lines on charts.i think he was called a navigator) bitter balance
back in the good ol' days, you had to start at the bottom of the list, and work your way up.in the '60's,70's & 80's, this meant RHS piston bangers, then turbo props until you reach the Holy Grail- Jets! if you delve a little more deeply into the esteemed Mr. Jobs stories you may notice little gems like; Capt Collins was on his first trip to the Antartic when he encountered Whiteout/ Mt. Erubus. Palm 90, Air Florida B737 crashed into the Potomac River too iced up to fly,the capt had approx. 2400 hrs on type, but less than 8 tkof's "or" ldgs in "falling snow".the f/o ( former F15 pilot by the way) had only operated "twice" before in mod/sev icing. the B727 that CFIT'd at ngt/vis on a rushed appr. into Cincinatti ;the skipper had 14 yrs airline,8 yrs as capt. 14000 hrs (the usual- DC3/4/6 Convair etc.) but less than 25 hrs jet he was ICUS at the time of this accident. the point is, very experienced crews alright, but inexperinced in the phase of the operation in which they came unstuck. Fate is still the Hunter.
"all the prangs in Mac Jobs vol. of books have one thing in common - vastly experienced crews."
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Gnadenburg. I don't know about the Hudson or Beaufighter but both the Meteor and Canberra had Vmca speeds around 40 knots above lift-off speed. If you were quick enough you could reduce power on the live engine and regain yaw control.
Mauswara. Might be generalising too much if you say that all the prangs you mention were low hour pilots on type, and that contributed to the accidents. Probably the most spectacular accident of them all was that which killed over 500 people involving a KLM B747 at Tenerife where the captain had hundreds of hours on type.
Mauswara. Might be generalising too much if you say that all the prangs you mention were low hour pilots on type, and that contributed to the accidents. Probably the most spectacular accident of them all was that which killed over 500 people involving a KLM B747 at Tenerife where the captain had hundreds of hours on type.
Props are for boats!
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Just to back up Gauntys post regarding Im with Stupids dig at WW2 Vintage Airline Pilots compared to todays Professional aviators.
If we didnt have those WW2 pilots we wouldnt have companies like Cathay Pacific.
Recomended Reading:
In addition to Ernest GannS "Fate is the Hunter", I suggest reading "Beyond Lion Rock" Story of Cathay Pacific. Cathay was founded by a pair of WW2 aviators and Aussie and a Yank.
Regards
Sheep
If we didnt have those WW2 pilots we wouldnt have companies like Cathay Pacific.
Recomended Reading:
In addition to Ernest GannS "Fate is the Hunter", I suggest reading "Beyond Lion Rock" Story of Cathay Pacific. Cathay was founded by a pair of WW2 aviators and Aussie and a Yank.
Regards
Sheep
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mauswara, my point is that experience does not innoculate you from mishap and I think the accidents you list prove that. With 2400 hours on type the Captain of the Air Florida 737 encountered a situation (falling snow) where his experience did not help him. As did Capt Collins etc
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Hudson,
I agree with you about the KLM captain being very experienced on type. However, he was not very current on line operations as he'd been spending most of his time as a sim instructor.
(IMHO I think his desire to get home was more of a problem)
I agree with you about the KLM captain being very experienced on type. However, he was not very current on line operations as he'd been spending most of his time as a sim instructor.
(IMHO I think his desire to get home was more of a problem)
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The unusual
IMHO young people are very adept at learning something complex, yet repetitious (such as operating a modern jet). But the experience part enables you to better handle the unusual (maybe because you once flew a twin with an engine out/hydraulic failure etc etc.). SOPs are written to try and cover every situation, but there will always be the 'next thing' that no-one has seen before (half the roof comes off/hijackers prising the door open/computer has a bug etc etc).
Even the ability to be cool under pressure. Experience helps.
Maybe oz is benign enough to allow low experience operators to get away with it. But that's what you are doing- 'getting away with it'.
Even the ability to be cool under pressure. Experience helps.
Maybe oz is benign enough to allow low experience operators to get away with it. But that's what you are doing- 'getting away with it'.
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well done
congratulations to all those pilots who have jobs with an airline.
just have a quick Q?,
whats a bloke supposed to do to get an interview with someone that has dash 8 and bigger.
ive been applying to those airlines for years with not one bite at an interview,whilst continually hearing of younger lower time pilots getting slots
i am mid thirties 5000+hrs 2500+command multi turbo prop,1000 night hrs 13 renewals 500+if time.
i dont want to sound bitter and twisted and certainly dont want to take anything from anyone lucky enough to be called for an interview but jees it would be nice to be at least given a chance at least.
just have a quick Q?,
whats a bloke supposed to do to get an interview with someone that has dash 8 and bigger.
ive been applying to those airlines for years with not one bite at an interview,whilst continually hearing of younger lower time pilots getting slots
i am mid thirties 5000+hrs 2500+command multi turbo prop,1000 night hrs 13 renewals 500+if time.
i dont want to sound bitter and twisted and certainly dont want to take anything from anyone lucky enough to be called for an interview but jees it would be nice to be at least given a chance at least.
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The fact is VB fly people around who know nothing about aviation and to them experience counts.
Word is out and some people will not fly VB for this reason they want to see older experienced crewsit makes them feel at ease.
Nobody ever had a grudge with the AN pilots while they were flying it just seems they were overpaid and underworked and that makes them unsuitable for a flying job with VB.
Word is out and some people will not fly VB for this reason they want to see older experienced crewsit makes them feel at ease.
Nobody ever had a grudge with the AN pilots while they were flying it just seems they were overpaid and underworked and that makes them unsuitable for a flying job with VB.
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The fact is VB fly people around who know nothing about aviation and to them experience counts.
Word is out and some people will not fly VB for this reason they want to see older experienced crewsit makes them feel at ease
Word is out and some people will not fly VB for this reason they want to see older experienced crewsit makes them feel at ease
I am rising 57 but for reasons that escape me for the moment, (Grecian 2000 really works
) most would not put me over 40 on looks, or at least the colour of my hair anyway. Does that mean I would be perceived as being less capable than someone who looks his age. 
Or if the youngster has his/her ends tipped to make them look older that they become "more experienced" as a result.
So what is the role of the Regulator in all of this then?
The 'body politic' (the passengers of who you speak) entrust the regulaton of standards and their safety to the Government who in turn set up a Regulator who regulates to accepted "world standards".
There are many here who suggest that they in fact overregulate.
They have given Virgin the big tick by issuing them an HCAOC, the HCAOC has to meet the same standards as those required of Qantas.
So what is the real difference besides one of perception perhaps, and to suggest that "one" is "safer" than the other because the pilots look older is a very long call indeed.
The C & T standards are the same, the management "registered" with the regulator as those fit to make the yes/no decisions on the suitability of "candidates" are essentially "delegates" of CASA and carry the responsibility of the airlines HCAOC and therefore the "business" on their shoulders.
IMHO only, by the above logic the arguments proposed here, are, especially the attitude of those passengers who make a differentiation or are encouraged to do so, moot.
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Ramboflyer, I did over 900 hours in a twelve month period of which approxiamately six months of that was spent away from my family. Then there were the early starts and late finishes. Don't you think that I deserve appropriate rumuneration for that? Qantas pays similiar. With the duty and flight time dispensation that Ansett had and Qantas has, they don't have to employ as many pilots. Also Ramboflyer, if what you state is fact, why is it that Virgin have taken on around fifty ex AN pilots? For your information Virgin pay well below standard world rates whilst the owner gets richer. Even Air Nauru pay more than Virgin. Fact is that tech crew cost is around $4 per hour per passenger ticket on a 737.
