Greasing the ATC wheel, QF-style

[375ml]

Can it be true?

QF executive have directed that there shall be no money over the bar at a certain ATC xmas drinks function as payback for industrial action taken by Civil Air members this year.

I wonder if that means they are cancelling xmas functions for their own staff who took industrial action this year?

What a silly, silly, thing to do.

I guess it's a great opportunity for VIRGIN BLUE to take over where QF left off (psst... it only takes a couple of rounds)

message me for details

[imnomaverick]

375ml,

Last time I saw, Qantas wasn't the employer of ATC's. I think monies donated to an ATC Christmas bash should come from the employer, but knowing ASA Management, you would have more chance of hell freezing over. They seem to take great delight in having their own bash's with their admin staff rather than a company Christmas party. They wonder why there is such an US vs Them mentality.

[Going Boeing]

Not only do QF have to trade in a fair and honest manner, they must be seen to trade in a fair and honest manner. If they were to put money over the bar it would appear that they are reciprocating for services rendered.

I had heard numerous rumours about AN giving FOC tickets to Air Traffic Controllers and about six months before AN's collapse, I had an ATC person visit the flight deck on a flight to SIN. At one stage of the conversation he lamented the fact that AN were no longer giving them FOC tickets. It explains why AN used to get "right of way" whilst taxying at Australian airports (& HKG).

[ferris]

Or what about when the FAs of an unnamed airline emptied every bar down the drain at every port over a similar issue?

[MoFo]

Talking of Xmas goodwill, the QF shorthaul pilots will shortly celebrate with a recently ex management pilot to wish him well for xmas and new year back on the line, and thank him for a job well done. They will be paying themselves.

Suggest ATC do likewise.

[375ml]

What we are talking about here is a token sum, enough to shout a couple of drinks only. We're talking less than an economy return SY-ML! It's a goodwill gesture, a thankyou. It isn't graft or payola. It isn't even drinks-for-trackshortening.

The function referred to is an informal Christmas drinks (a tradition of some 20 years in this port) typically funded by newly rated ATC's and some operators. ASA doesn't officially contribute, as they put on an official Christmas party as a separate function.

ATCs don't favour one operator over another, what a rediculous presumption. MATS gives a list of traffic priorities that we must obey, followed by whatever makes our own job easiest.

Removal of goodwill simply removes opportunities for ATCs to "go the extra mile" for the customer when we have no requirement or incentive to do so.

[Ultralights]

Christmas Function for QF staff, since when? i cant remeber any!

[Adamastor]

Separation vs Service

"If they were to put money over the bar it would appear that they are reciprocating for services rendered."

So, Going Boeing, is that like giving ID flights to staff? Or travel agents?!?

I'll be brutally honest, 375ml - I separate QF aircraft - I give a service to the others.

Adamastor

P.S. So can anyone tell me how much ten extra miles on a Jumbo flight costs?

[Longhauler]

" I'll be brutally honest, 375ml - I separate QF aircraft - I give a service to the others. "

Adamastor,

Having experienced ATC in all different parts of the world, I can assure you that Australian ATC has a long way to go. Before you start deciding who you separate and who you give a service to, I suggest you have a long, hard think about what it means to be a 'professional'.


LH

[ferris]

Isn't the internet an amazing thing?

Yes Longhauler, I'll be thinking of you and your mates as I apply those wonderful Jeddah or Tehran control restrictions

Pettiness is an art-form around here.

[Going Boeing]

Coral

I posted what was told to me by a then current Air Trafficker and have no reason to suspect that he was lying.

Also, your reference to anger about QF's non payment of double Xmas allowances is incorrect - the rumour that many captains uplifted additional fuel to penalise QF was told to the media by a member of the Flight Attendants Union's Committee. As far as I'm aware, not one pilot uplifted additional fuel for this reason. I guess that individual wanted the pilots to look unprofessional in the eyes of the public rather than Flight attendants.

Back to the original topic - Personally, I would not expect another company to provide funds for drinks and nibblies at a function for staff of my company. It really is up to Air Services to motivate their own staff, not companies that they do business with. GB

[imnomaverick]

Adamastor,

oooh..Your playing with fire there my friend.

[divingduck]

Longhaul…

I’ve also experienced pilots from many places in the world, and I can REALLY assure you that Qantas home attitudes have a long way to go. The Qantas pilot outside of Australia is a completely different animal to the one in domestic airspace.


Going Boeing…

Your mate was winding you up…Ansett and Qantas were the same , never give the ATC anything! Obviously to your management, we are below floor sweepers and travel agents, and are not in the “Industry”.

A couple of “for instances”…

The guys that used to run the Westwinds out of Perth to Telfer used to put on a bash each year and invite the ATC’s. Great party, good to meet the drivers face to face etc etc. The upshot was that they received direct tracking more than anybody else, saved them about 2-3 minutes per leg…at least 6 legs per day, 365 days per year…do the sums.

A British Airways pilot having just been tracked from Karatha direct to a 6 mile final RWY21 in Perth asked me if any other airlines gave us free or discounted travel…no I said. He replied with “I thought we got a particularly good service in this country”

Now put thinking caps on….BA and QF arrive at the edge of the screen at the same time…who is going to land first? Hmmm? I wonder.

Channel 7 used to throw parties that ATC’s were invited to as well (can’t say if it still happens, haven’t been in Perth for a long while), and they only had one helicopter, but they appreciated the amount of work that they caused and were happy to a bit of PR. But then again they have competition don’t they?


Just my 100 baisas worth…

[No Further Requirements]

Geeze Adamastor, you sure know what customer service is. I honestly hope that post was a wind up. You just lost ATC many, many brownie points with our customers. I doubt QF will ever offer drinks again, or anything else for that matter. Again, well done. Check MATS mate, and tell me where QF is written in "Priorities".

On another note, Darwin (yes, go ahead and have a go at us) ATC put on an at least annual Tower Party. Here, all the GA and major operators at the airport are invited to ATC (pre S11, now at the 'stute) for a BBQ paid for by the ATC social club (not the RAAF, by the controllers themselves). Also, a couple of hundred bucks go into grog. Great night, excellent opporunities for meeting people and a valuable tool for customer relations (not to mention a super p!ssup!!!). Now, who is greasing who?

QF have the right to do with their money what they will, including purchasing some flying sheep shares. It is the theory behind it - social events where ATC and aircrew get together are a great forum for swapping professional opinion, getting to know names/faces & not just voices, and for general comraderie. Perhaps there could be another event organised without management input just for the hell of it. Anyway, enough ranting. Take care y'all. Cheers,

NFR.

[Adamastor]

Okay, okay, okay......

I never have been an apologist but I'd like to address some of the replies to my earlier comment.

Longhauler, I too have experienced ATC in many different countries - from BOTH sides of the radar screen. I will not judge the expediency or professionalism of any one ATC based on one sector into or out of a particular aerodrome on any given day. What I will do is make an assessment of workload issues, regulatory constraints, airspace design, weather, and about a hundred other criteria before I leap in and declare one air trafficer better than another. The first aircraft I spoke to today was an abrupt - no dammit, he was downright rude - pilot from an unnamed airline. I certainly am not so petty as to taint the whole airline with that brush, but it IS human nature to remember such unpleasantness, and perhaps, subconsciously or not, fail to go the extra yard to conduct four extra pieces of coordination that you really don't have time to comfortably do the next time he comes along. Unprofessional, I don't think so, but I respect your opinion.

Going Boeing, you don't expect another company to contribute to your drinks and nibblies, but you do expect your company to fund subsidised travel for persons not employed by your airline? Again, an opinion only, but that strikes me as a dire double standard.

imnomaverick, Pyro is my middle name!

No Further Requirements, if you truly believe that ATC holds ANY brownie points whatsoever in Australia, you are sadly, sadly mistaken. And I can't deteriorate a non-existent relationship. Take a look at the other similar threads in here over the last three years. I would love to see this us and them mentality rectified, so in one regard we arguing the same thing. I also believe that socialising has a very important part to play in harmony. I'm not asking for a handout (though I think the token sum that 375ml is talking about would promote said harmony, and should certainly be reciprocated in kind), but an act of friendship that can be pointed at as an example of a worthwhile effort being made. Rest assured that I'll be raising this within ASA as well.

Reading back it's all a bit of airy-fairy drivel but I think you all get the picture. To reiterate (more for my own personal sake than yours!), the point I was trying to make (however ineloquently, and maybe with just a hint of windup in it), is that it appears to me that the aviation industry in Australia is so concerned with how ATC is trying to screw airlines and vice versa that no good relationship can ever be formed. At least not until the two parties BOTH take a step forwards to meet somewhere in the middle.

Adamastor

[Binoculars]

As an ATC not connected to the golden triangle, all I can say is "how embarrassing". You should all be ashamed.

[imnomaverick]

Adamastor,

"Rest assured that I'll be raising this within ASA as well."

Good Luck matey, don't get too disheartened by the deafly silence and the internal laughter being done by ASA Managers. I have been down that path, through another forum, they only have their own agenda's and personal perks they worry about. The only reason they would donate any monies is for personal gain ie. To gain higher profile within the company by impressing upper level management. But you'll hear the old tried and tested " I don't have the budgetary monies to contribute to this, it's not in the interests of Airservices."

[375ml]

OMG I had no idea this thread would bring forth such vitriol and cultural cringe. In the words of Kath, "we've got to talk, we have issues."

If you know where to go, come along to the ground floor bar late afternoon on 10/12. Let the ATC's buy you a beer. Yes, even redtails are still welcome

[Chief galah]

It's about time some ATC's realised they're not a subsection of the CFMEU.
Any controller that doesn't put in his best, each shift, each day etc etc is not deserving of the reasonable reward they are receiving for their services.
Apart from your fortnightly paycheck, nobody owes you nothin'. Put your egos behind you and let your unique skills do the talking.
That's what you've been selected and trained to do, over a lot of other people.
The camaraderie between pilots and controllers has diminished over time as our respective employers' strive to create a "safe" and "sterile" flying environment.
The downside is, of course, that we just don't know each other any more.
And for those flying folk waiting to partake in a chop at the Airservices barby -
good luck and fat chance - they can't even put one on for their own people!
Merry Xmas from CG.

[Ausatco]

I'm with you, Binoculars.

The thread title alone is offensive, and it went downhill from there.

AA