Greasing the ATC wheel, QF-style
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Coral actually had the key to this a couple of pages ago; know [or at least have a working knowledge of] the other man's job!
Having spent a bit of time observing and dealing with ATC, I've many times queried my colleagues intended course of action in the TMA due to its potential to affect the ATC environment. They have always had no idea of the 'knock-on' effect of their intended action. EG; if asked to hold a speed to a DME distance and its' not working TELL ATC that you have to slow early, don't just do it!
As to professionalism; while many attempts have been made over the years to get QF pilots to go to ATC liaison events, the usual answer is "How much are they paying me; is it a training day?" or "They're there to serve us; why do I need to know anything about them?" Sad
Conversely, apart from chaps going to the US to look at CPDLC with the FAA [comment after landing and taxying at LAX: "There are a few people in Oz who should see this!!"], I haven't seen or heard of an ATCO on a QF flightdeck for years.
However, in long range flying, it can be extremely advantageous to know who conflicting enroute traffic is and their a/c type. Horse for courses.
G'day
Having spent a bit of time observing and dealing with ATC, I've many times queried my colleagues intended course of action in the TMA due to its potential to affect the ATC environment. They have always had no idea of the 'knock-on' effect of their intended action. EG; if asked to hold a speed to a DME distance and its' not working TELL ATC that you have to slow early, don't just do it!
As to professionalism; while many attempts have been made over the years to get QF pilots to go to ATC liaison events, the usual answer is "How much are they paying me; is it a training day?" or "They're there to serve us; why do I need to know anything about them?" Sad
Conversely, apart from chaps going to the US to look at CPDLC with the FAA [comment after landing and taxying at LAX: "There are a few people in Oz who should see this!!"], I haven't seen or heard of an ATCO on a QF flightdeck for years.
However, in long range flying, it can be extremely advantageous to know who conflicting enroute traffic is and their a/c type. Horse for courses.
G'day
Feather#3.
I haven't seen or heard of an ATCO on a QF flightdeck for years.
I haven't seen or heard of an ATCO on a QF flightdeck for years.
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Found this in Aircrew Notices
Lax Terminal Radar
Go to the home page for Boston, O'Hare and others.
A fair bit of cooperation by all going on here.
Lax Terminal Radar
Go to the home page for Boston, O'Hare and others.
A fair bit of cooperation by all going on here.
A river to my people
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Feather #3
I well remember an occasion not so long ago in a "Northern Australian Port" when relations between ATC and our flag carrier were deemed to be temporarily less than peachy. There had indeed been certain incidents involving IMC, DME arrivals and LSALTs, the odd aircraft (under the command of a check-captain no less, or so the story goes) helping itself to a takeoff clearance into the teeth of inbound traffic and other occurences of such ilk.
Airline and ATC management, in their infinite wisdom, decided that because so many of the crews of that carrier, both long and short haul, overnighted in the port each evening that it would be of great benefit to both tech crew and ATC alike to gather and enjoy refreshments and have a "group hug".
With the sagacity that comes only with the experience of management, it was deemed appropriate for cool drinks to be taken in the downstairs bar of the Hilton prior to repairing to a conference room upstairs for discussions which would undoubtedly lead to the exchange of Xmas cards and declarations of mutual undying respect and admiration.
With the clarity that only comes with hindsight, the esteemed managers realised too late that they had seriously underestimated the amount of refreshment that a group of pilots and controllers with honest thirsts and a following breeze could indeed consume. The wisdom of the decision to provide an "open tab" was, I thought at the time, unfairly questioned.
When all concerned moved to the aforementioned conference room (some had to be assisted, as they were weary) it was apparent that discussions were going to be both frank and fruitful.
Such was the magnitude of the occasion that the management rocket scientists had forgotten that extra refreshments had been ordered for Part 2 of the "Hug".
The assembled players attacked the new stocks with a remarkable vigour, given their efforts so far. The planned question and answer session seemed to deterioate somewhat, with one controller in particular giving the assembled pilots and in fact all pilots, males and the bloke who brought in more beer a bit of a free character assessment. The controller concerned drew a comment from one of the pilots that "she was definitely punching above her weight.
We took these assessments "on board", as it were, with hardly an interruption to the rate of consumption. The general consensus was that the evening's intercourse (in the intellectual sense of course) had set back Airline/ATC relations definitely no more than about 10 years, and if management cared to put their collective hand in their pocket again, we would gladly attend.
In vino veritas
I well remember an occasion not so long ago in a "Northern Australian Port" when relations between ATC and our flag carrier were deemed to be temporarily less than peachy. There had indeed been certain incidents involving IMC, DME arrivals and LSALTs, the odd aircraft (under the command of a check-captain no less, or so the story goes) helping itself to a takeoff clearance into the teeth of inbound traffic and other occurences of such ilk.
Airline and ATC management, in their infinite wisdom, decided that because so many of the crews of that carrier, both long and short haul, overnighted in the port each evening that it would be of great benefit to both tech crew and ATC alike to gather and enjoy refreshments and have a "group hug".
With the sagacity that comes only with the experience of management, it was deemed appropriate for cool drinks to be taken in the downstairs bar of the Hilton prior to repairing to a conference room upstairs for discussions which would undoubtedly lead to the exchange of Xmas cards and declarations of mutual undying respect and admiration.
With the clarity that only comes with hindsight, the esteemed managers realised too late that they had seriously underestimated the amount of refreshment that a group of pilots and controllers with honest thirsts and a following breeze could indeed consume. The wisdom of the decision to provide an "open tab" was, I thought at the time, unfairly questioned.
When all concerned moved to the aforementioned conference room (some had to be assisted, as they were weary) it was apparent that discussions were going to be both frank and fruitful.
Such was the magnitude of the occasion that the management rocket scientists had forgotten that extra refreshments had been ordered for Part 2 of the "Hug".
The assembled players attacked the new stocks with a remarkable vigour, given their efforts so far. The planned question and answer session seemed to deterioate somewhat, with one controller in particular giving the assembled pilots and in fact all pilots, males and the bloke who brought in more beer a bit of a free character assessment. The controller concerned drew a comment from one of the pilots that "she was definitely punching above her weight.
We took these assessments "on board", as it were, with hardly an interruption to the rate of consumption. The general consensus was that the evening's intercourse (in the intellectual sense of course) had set back Airline/ATC relations definitely no more than about 10 years, and if management cared to put their collective hand in their pocket again, we would gladly attend.
In vino veritas
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Woomera, for heaven's sake, Save Separator's post and put it in Humour next to the QF letter!
Brilliant
Brilliant
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backchat
Borg
As an ATC who controls the area (Northern Australia, predominately non-radar) that Divingduck once did I can confirm that backchat does occur. I don't believe that B767 pilots are the worst offenders but unfortunately Qantas pilots appear to be more likely than others to do this. As Duck points out it is not a huge issue for experienced controllers but can make it very difficult for newbies. The chat will normally happen when they are busiest as that is when level restrictions and the like will occur. It is not as bad as it once was but will distract controllers which will lead to a degradation of the service provided. I don't care what company you work for, I apply the priorities as outlined in MATS. The majority of people I work with will work very hard to try and achieve the optimum result for all aircraft transitting the airspace but unfortunately sometimes there has to be a loser. It is just as frustrating to us to be hamstrung by separation standards from a time long gone when the majority of aircraft are smack bang on track. Most pilots are extremely professional and it is dissapointing when they are not. The same for my colleagues.
As an ATC who controls the area (Northern Australia, predominately non-radar) that Divingduck once did I can confirm that backchat does occur. I don't believe that B767 pilots are the worst offenders but unfortunately Qantas pilots appear to be more likely than others to do this. As Duck points out it is not a huge issue for experienced controllers but can make it very difficult for newbies. The chat will normally happen when they are busiest as that is when level restrictions and the like will occur. It is not as bad as it once was but will distract controllers which will lead to a degradation of the service provided. I don't care what company you work for, I apply the priorities as outlined in MATS. The majority of people I work with will work very hard to try and achieve the optimum result for all aircraft transitting the airspace but unfortunately sometimes there has to be a loser. It is just as frustrating to us to be hamstrung by separation standards from a time long gone when the majority of aircraft are smack bang on track. Most pilots are extremely professional and it is dissapointing when they are not. The same for my colleagues.
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I've been following this fascinating topic since its inception, and as some will know, have already made a "contribution," but since gone somewhat mute. There is a reason.
What I am about to say (and do) is prompted by what I believe to be the single biggest element in making PPRuNe truly worthwhile - it's ability to generate discussion, and more importantly conscious introspective thought, in those who participate.
In the absence of another suitable forum (until the next industry night, anyway) I would like to offer a total and unequivocal apology for what I've come to realise has been my completely unethical and dishonourable manner in occasional dealings with some aircraft. This contrition applies equally to pilots, airlines, and other controllers whom I have incovenienced or disgraced by my words and actions. To offer anything less than my absolute best when controlling is, I now realise, abhorrent and wholly unconscionable. To fall into the trap of being one of those persons who believes that the world owes them a living (or a free Christmas drink for that matter) is one of my greatest shames, and one that I hope I can extinguish forthwith. I cannot take back what I have done (wish as I might) but I can, and will, alter my actions for the future.
I am only one Aussie controller and so this epiphany of mine will probably go unnoticed by all in the industry (and I invite you all to lessen my indignity by not responding to this post), but rest assured it has been very important to me at a personal level. Again, my sincerest apologies and best wishes to ALL in the industry.
Finally, on a lighter note, Separator, damn, can you tell a story!!!
What I am about to say (and do) is prompted by what I believe to be the single biggest element in making PPRuNe truly worthwhile - it's ability to generate discussion, and more importantly conscious introspective thought, in those who participate.
In the absence of another suitable forum (until the next industry night, anyway) I would like to offer a total and unequivocal apology for what I've come to realise has been my completely unethical and dishonourable manner in occasional dealings with some aircraft. This contrition applies equally to pilots, airlines, and other controllers whom I have incovenienced or disgraced by my words and actions. To offer anything less than my absolute best when controlling is, I now realise, abhorrent and wholly unconscionable. To fall into the trap of being one of those persons who believes that the world owes them a living (or a free Christmas drink for that matter) is one of my greatest shames, and one that I hope I can extinguish forthwith. I cannot take back what I have done (wish as I might) but I can, and will, alter my actions for the future.
I am only one Aussie controller and so this epiphany of mine will probably go unnoticed by all in the industry (and I invite you all to lessen my indignity by not responding to this post), but rest assured it has been very important to me at a personal level. Again, my sincerest apologies and best wishes to ALL in the industry.
Finally, on a lighter note, Separator, damn, can you tell a story!!!
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The subject of the original thread has kind of gone off the tracks.
The aforementioned drinks that started this thread was held last week.
I had a marvellous time, and I believe I saw more than a few pilots, and a couple of QF Managers.
AND THE WHEEL WAS GREASED!!!
Thanks to the non-ATC staff ( read QF) for putting money on the bar.
I don't think that it changes the world, but dialogue between professionals is always beneficial.
End of story.
Merry Christmas to all
The aforementioned drinks that started this thread was held last week.
I had a marvellous time, and I believe I saw more than a few pilots, and a couple of QF Managers.
AND THE WHEEL WAS GREASED!!!
Thanks to the non-ATC staff ( read QF) for putting money on the bar.
I don't think that it changes the world, but dialogue between professionals is always beneficial.
End of story.
Merry Christmas to all
Moderator
Post # 69. Classic!
Tail Wheel
Tail Wheel
