Media *ucking MORONS!!!!!
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The way things went down on Sep 11th, won't happen again for the simple reason that there has been a sea change in the psyche of the public, and the passengers would almost certainly take matters into their own hands. If you think about it, an essential ingredient for the success of the hijackings was that 200-odd passengers sat there like lambs to the slaughter while these hijackers, armed at the end of the day only with small knives, took them all to their deaths.
But if you put yourself in a pax seat tomorrow, and the little arabian bloke next to you jumped up waving a Stanley and said he was taking over the aircraft, what would you do, sit there fat dumb and happy? I reckon they'd be torn limb from limb before they even got two rows towards the flight deck.
Of course we're still at the mercy of bombers to a certain extent but to be fair, the Bali bomb showed us that it's just as easy to get blown up in any public place as in an airliner. It isn't perfect and never will be but but at least we have some attempt at security measures in place in our industry, the shopping malls and railway stations and millions of other public congregation places do not. In a lot of ways I'd rather be sitting up the front of an airliner these days than in some other soft civilian target.
But if you put yourself in a pax seat tomorrow, and the little arabian bloke next to you jumped up waving a Stanley and said he was taking over the aircraft, what would you do, sit there fat dumb and happy? I reckon they'd be torn limb from limb before they even got two rows towards the flight deck.
Of course we're still at the mercy of bombers to a certain extent but to be fair, the Bali bomb showed us that it's just as easy to get blown up in any public place as in an airliner. It isn't perfect and never will be but but at least we have some attempt at security measures in place in our industry, the shopping malls and railway stations and millions of other public congregation places do not. In a lot of ways I'd rather be sitting up the front of an airliner these days than in some other soft civilian target.
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Bit off track but....
In the Philippines, Manila International Airport, every bag, suitcase and item whether it be a pram or box is x-rayed before you even get through the front door and enter the checkin areas. To get to the departure gates you go through an extra two check points with another x-ray of hand baggage and everyone (not just those that make the walkthrough beep) is frisked and scanned.
For a nation that in many ways is so far behind it makes sense really. They are doing it so why aren't we!!
In the Philippines, Manila International Airport, every bag, suitcase and item whether it be a pram or box is x-rayed before you even get through the front door and enter the checkin areas. To get to the departure gates you go through an extra two check points with another x-ray of hand baggage and everyone (not just those that make the walkthrough beep) is frisked and scanned.
For a nation that in many ways is so far behind it makes sense really. They are doing it so why aren't we!!
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I would be happy to close this thread now please Woomera before anyone here has a "slip of the tongue" and does even more damage than the media have already done.
Cheers
Cheers
Woftman
The "Threat" defeated Soviet forces in Afganistan and has since found holes in many aspects of Western security. Their srategic planning think tank does not rely on pprune.
We are ignorant and complacent in our part of the world. A little public discussion may do more good then harm.
Heli
Was in Manilla last week. Very impressed with their visible levels of security. I suppose they have terrorists in their backyard though, but then of course, so do we!
Got me a handful of those rotten Manilla cigars to take home too.
The "Threat" defeated Soviet forces in Afganistan and has since found holes in many aspects of Western security. Their srategic planning think tank does not rely on pprune.
We are ignorant and complacent in our part of the world. A little public discussion may do more good then harm.
Heli
Was in Manilla last week. Very impressed with their visible levels of security. I suppose they have terrorists in their backyard though, but then of course, so do we!
Got me a handful of those rotten Manilla cigars to take home too.
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I wish I had the balls to walk up to an airport security check
brandishing a broken off wine bottle. I'm sure I would be taken
into custody for attempting to carry an offensive weapon onto
an aircraft.
And, yet I can carry half a dozen wine bottles in my handcarry,
and convert them to deadly offensive weapons in a microsecond.
It's a JOKE that bottles are still allowed on aircraft.
The lipservice to increased security will stop after the next big
suicide bomb (aircraft) finally hits the earth.
brandishing a broken off wine bottle. I'm sure I would be taken
into custody for attempting to carry an offensive weapon onto
an aircraft.
And, yet I can carry half a dozen wine bottles in my handcarry,
and convert them to deadly offensive weapons in a microsecond.
It's a JOKE that bottles are still allowed on aircraft.
The lipservice to increased security will stop after the next big
suicide bomb (aircraft) finally hits the earth.
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I remain fascinated by the attitude of ppruners on the issue of airport security.
VictorBravo - the public does not have a "need to know" - they have a right to know. In case you have missed it, as woftam certainly has, we live in a democracy where the free exchange of information is a basic freedom. Pprune exists because we have such a right.
Woftam - You call to Woomera to close the thread is beyond belief. As others have pointed out those people with designs on attacking and/or damaging our way of life have better sources of information than pprune. If you wish to live in a state where censorship is the norm try North Korea. You won't like it.
Meanwhile the media will continue to publish information and comment about airport security and security issues in general.
And just in case you believe the media are not to be trusted with information about security issues, sections of the media were briefed about aspects of security surrounding the Olympics, or found out about them through good intelligence work, that were not for public consumption. Not a word was published or ever will be.
VictorBravo - the public does not have a "need to know" - they have a right to know. In case you have missed it, as woftam certainly has, we live in a democracy where the free exchange of information is a basic freedom. Pprune exists because we have such a right.
Woftam - You call to Woomera to close the thread is beyond belief. As others have pointed out those people with designs on attacking and/or damaging our way of life have better sources of information than pprune. If you wish to live in a state where censorship is the norm try North Korea. You won't like it.
Meanwhile the media will continue to publish information and comment about airport security and security issues in general.
And just in case you believe the media are not to be trusted with information about security issues, sections of the media were briefed about aspects of security surrounding the Olympics, or found out about them through good intelligence work, that were not for public consumption. Not a word was published or ever will be.
Thread Starter
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tsnake,
Yes,they have far better sources than pprune,they have the media!
As I have already stated we are NOT talking censorship here,we are talking common sense.
Exactly WHOSE side are you on?
Don't you idiots realise that EVERY piece of information regarding security you release is a threat to us all?
"meanwhile the media will continue to publish information and comment about airport security and security issues in general"
I'm sure we will all sleep soundly knowing we are in such great hands.
Yes,they have far better sources than pprune,they have the media!
As I have already stated we are NOT talking censorship here,we are talking common sense.
Exactly WHOSE side are you on?
Don't you idiots realise that EVERY piece of information regarding security you release is a threat to us all?
"meanwhile the media will continue to publish information and comment about airport security and security issues in general"
I'm sure we will all sleep soundly knowing we are in such great hands.
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Watched a peice on x-ray machines at Austalian ports lastnight, being introduced to fight terrorism. I was horrified to hear the exact timetable and capitals involved. Now anyone interested in smuggling goods into australia knows where and when to do so...WAKEUP AUSTRALIA!!!!!!!!! 
Joint intelligence and joint military ops are the first line of defence against terrorism. Defence signals intelligence, SAS, ASIS etc. Top Secret. No media discusssion here.
Second line. Police and ASIO. Civil libertarians can make difficult. They tend to aid those who take liberties against our freedoms.
Last line is the cumbersome defence of soft targets like airports.
At the moment, our airports security in question. An awakening to our complacency, through debate and media, will eventuate in better protection afforded to all.
Airport security is expensive. Who will pay? Take note of the VB Sydney terminal. The security situation bare minimum. Why? Dollars!
I fell the only effective defence against a well organised terror threat is the aforementioned first and second line. Good airport security, the result of their initial spectacular success, would have them look at softer targets.
Every few years a maniac like Martin Bryant pops up. The first and second line defences useless. A Martin Bryant, using religious justification and acting independently, would see airports/airlines the perfect target.
Thus the need for x-ray machines and heavily armed airport police. A useful, but probably not effective, last ditch defence against Al Queda too.
I feel our Northern approaches poorly defended. Using the arguments of some above, I am guilty of treason in almost inviting invasion by stating the obvious!
Second line. Police and ASIO. Civil libertarians can make difficult. They tend to aid those who take liberties against our freedoms.
Last line is the cumbersome defence of soft targets like airports.
At the moment, our airports security in question. An awakening to our complacency, through debate and media, will eventuate in better protection afforded to all.
Airport security is expensive. Who will pay? Take note of the VB Sydney terminal. The security situation bare minimum. Why? Dollars!
I fell the only effective defence against a well organised terror threat is the aforementioned first and second line. Good airport security, the result of their initial spectacular success, would have them look at softer targets.
Every few years a maniac like Martin Bryant pops up. The first and second line defences useless. A Martin Bryant, using religious justification and acting independently, would see airports/airlines the perfect target.
Thus the need for x-ray machines and heavily armed airport police. A useful, but probably not effective, last ditch defence against Al Queda too.
I feel our Northern approaches poorly defended. Using the arguments of some above, I am guilty of treason in almost inviting invasion by stating the obvious!
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You're right tsnake, it should have been "right to know". However I stand by my comments. I do not believe that the people who say that have a "right to know" in this wonderful democracy that we live in also have a right to compromise my, or any other person's, right to live in a safe environment.
You accuse woftam of advocating censorship by asking for closure of this thread (although I would have thought that he/she is entitled to their right to free speech). However you then cite an example where the press itself allegedly decided to withhold information with the implication that this was in the public interest. So are you saying that it's ok for the press to determine what does and doesn't get published in the public interest? Now, that wouldn't be, oh gosh! CENSORSHIP, would it? Or is it democratically all right if it's the press taking on the role of arbiter of what is good or what isn't good for the public?
Are we having our cake and eating it yet?
I could waste hours of bandwidth arguing about it, but I have better things to do.
Whether or not people can get better information elsewhere, it is better not to say anything. Information is a big jigsaw set where sometimes you just need to get the last piece in place before you can see the whole picture. If you don't want anyone else to get the picture, you withhold any pieces you have, no matter how small, because every piece can make a difference. And sometimes just pointing out the existence of a gap can, in itself, reveal something that should not be seen.
You accuse woftam of advocating censorship by asking for closure of this thread (although I would have thought that he/she is entitled to their right to free speech). However you then cite an example where the press itself allegedly decided to withhold information with the implication that this was in the public interest. So are you saying that it's ok for the press to determine what does and doesn't get published in the public interest? Now, that wouldn't be, oh gosh! CENSORSHIP, would it? Or is it democratically all right if it's the press taking on the role of arbiter of what is good or what isn't good for the public?
Are we having our cake and eating it yet?
I could waste hours of bandwidth arguing about it, but I have better things to do.
Whether or not people can get better information elsewhere, it is better not to say anything. Information is a big jigsaw set where sometimes you just need to get the last piece in place before you can see the whole picture. If you don't want anyone else to get the picture, you withhold any pieces you have, no matter how small, because every piece can make a difference. And sometimes just pointing out the existence of a gap can, in itself, reveal something that should not be seen.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Good observation, Gardenbug 
. You have raised a very valid issue with your post.
IF the citizens of a country are under threat, as is apparently the case now (I see the Australian Embassy in Manila is being closed, due to `credible threats`, btw) in Australia, and airports/aircraft are declared prime targets, then let`s get the military involved in an ACTIVE, protective role.
The pollies are happy to send the troops off to Afghanistan, Viet Nam, and Timor - how about sending them off to our OWN Aussie airports to replace some of the "amateurs" they have operating the security services at present!
So called "Homeland Security" seems to be looking at every other country to send the AAF to, whilst ignoring HOME!!
. You have raised a very valid issue with your post.IF the citizens of a country are under threat, as is apparently the case now (I see the Australian Embassy in Manila is being closed, due to `credible threats`, btw) in Australia, and airports/aircraft are declared prime targets, then let`s get the military involved in an ACTIVE, protective role.
The pollies are happy to send the troops off to Afghanistan, Viet Nam, and Timor - how about sending them off to our OWN Aussie airports to replace some of the "amateurs" they have operating the security services at present!
So called "Homeland Security" seems to be looking at every other country to send the AAF to, whilst ignoring HOME!!
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I don't know much about the specifics of airport security. Can I just ask what x-ray screeners are hoping to see in checked bags? Afterall, the explosive of choice for the terrorist is C4. As I understand it, C4 won't show up on the x-ray machine and can be molded to almost any shape. Detonators are tiny, and almost every bag must have a battery or two and integrated circuits packed somewhere. The US is getting explosive detection installed at their airports. X-ray machines just don't sound too effective to me.
More Airport Security Stupidity
At the risk of inflaming Woftam.
I travel quite a lot (monthly) to the States and have observed some very strange security practices, if Australia is going to emulate these to pacify a stupid public, then it will be just throwing good money after bad - whilst increasing frustration for business travellers.
One such practice is the Automatic marking of a passenger who changes their flight schedule (as just about every businessman does), or who has a one-way ticket (like Pheonix - LAX). Not only do you get your large bags x-ray screened, but you get tagged for an automatic search at the Gate. STUPID! Now, if I was planning to see my maker with a bunch of infidels in tow, I'd simply travel with a fellow nutcase, ensuring that I changed my flight time to the one he was on and give him my carry on bag, knowing that the chances that he would be picked would be greatly reduced. I would prefer a far more intelligent and random system, like physcographics, profiling and good 'ol randomness.
But the other punters on the plane (who I discuss this with) like the "feeling" it gives them.
So, as Creampuff would say, it is the "vibe of the thing" that matters, not the reality.
Woftam, a question for you, what security measure is going to stop someone shooting a rocket at a plane, or sharpenening a credit card to slit someones throat or taking medicines on board and mixing your own plastique or highly corrosive substance.
I'm afraid the answer, doesn't rely in $14/hr grunts at the gate.
I travel quite a lot (monthly) to the States and have observed some very strange security practices, if Australia is going to emulate these to pacify a stupid public, then it will be just throwing good money after bad - whilst increasing frustration for business travellers.
One such practice is the Automatic marking of a passenger who changes their flight schedule (as just about every businessman does), or who has a one-way ticket (like Pheonix - LAX). Not only do you get your large bags x-ray screened, but you get tagged for an automatic search at the Gate. STUPID! Now, if I was planning to see my maker with a bunch of infidels in tow, I'd simply travel with a fellow nutcase, ensuring that I changed my flight time to the one he was on and give him my carry on bag, knowing that the chances that he would be picked would be greatly reduced. I would prefer a far more intelligent and random system, like physcographics, profiling and good 'ol randomness.
But the other punters on the plane (who I discuss this with) like the "feeling" it gives them.
So, as Creampuff would say, it is the "vibe of the thing" that matters, not the reality.
Woftam, a question for you, what security measure is going to stop someone shooting a rocket at a plane, or sharpenening a credit card to slit someones throat or taking medicines on board and mixing your own plastique or highly corrosive substance.
I'm afraid the answer, doesn't rely in $14/hr grunts at the gate.
