View Poll Results: How will you vote for the rehashed EBA
Yes
6
13.33%
No
39
86.67%
Voters: 45. This poll is closed
New Virgin Blue EBA Poll
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Australia
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Big assumption to make that this bloke is actually with QF. This site is not the hardest to register a name on and create a persona of illusion. Steady on on the QF bit, all pilots at QF wish you well in your endeavours to improve your lot as it takes the heat off QF pilots who are suddenly very expensive in managements' 
eyes. The profession is worth more.
eyes. The profession is worth more.
Nunc est bibendum
Go you good thing!
Just to echo Jakes t houghts. The majority of QF drivers are cheering mightily hard for you blokes on this one. Admittedly it is out of patent self interest but most endeavours in this world are done out of that.
I'm sick of being told about VBs 'lower cost base' and anything that brings the two closer together is a good thing by me- and presumably by you blokes too.
What person after flogging around GA for years doing THY and now flying a 737 DOESN'T deserve to be paid more than $100K per annum as a F/O?
A mate of mine once told me that executive salaries and bonuses are all about 'at risk' pay. Well, considering that most CPL holders have outlaid in excess of $50K and then for the most part spent a couple of years earning less than a glamourous wage, why shouldn't they be paid well. Management certainly is and you could argue that they 'risk' a lot less on a daily basis than we do. They stuff up and the menus don't arrive on the aircraft or the rosters are crap. We stuff up....
Go get 'em fellas and ladies, you'll get support from every thinking QF driver!
I'm sick of being told about VBs 'lower cost base' and anything that brings the two closer together is a good thing by me- and presumably by you blokes too.
What person after flogging around GA for years doing THY and now flying a 737 DOESN'T deserve to be paid more than $100K per annum as a F/O?
A mate of mine once told me that executive salaries and bonuses are all about 'at risk' pay. Well, considering that most CPL holders have outlaid in excess of $50K and then for the most part spent a couple of years earning less than a glamourous wage, why shouldn't they be paid well. Management certainly is and you could argue that they 'risk' a lot less on a daily basis than we do. They stuff up and the menus don't arrive on the aircraft or the rosters are crap. We stuff up....
Go get 'em fellas and ladies, you'll get support from every thinking QF driver!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: home with mum and the kids
Posts: 176
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If I can clarify:
Lets call a spade a spade, prior to Ansett's collapse, were not the vast majority of Virgin's low / nil jet time pilots AN and QF rejects?
Only a question as irrespective of whether or not it is true most of them are way ahead of where I was after 2 years at AN, let alone 9.
Just goes to show, aviation has little to do with experience or ability and a lot to do with luck.
Lets call a spade a spade, prior to Ansett's collapse, were not the vast majority of Virgin's low / nil jet time pilots AN and QF rejects?
Only a question as irrespective of whether or not it is true most of them are way ahead of where I was after 2 years at AN, let alone 9.
Just goes to show, aviation has little to do with experience or ability and a lot to do with luck.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Dunnunda & Godzone
Age: 74
Posts: 4,275
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd just like to clarify a point.
B747-400 F/O was binned as a result of his suggestion that
which I think is offensive and demeaning to those people.
then longjohn reflects that
with the implication that if your were not selected by AN or QF that you are somehow a reject.
Might I suggest that that "failing" to get a guernsey with either does not in itself mean anything, but that you did not fit their respective "cardboard cutouts " of what they believe represents "their sort of person" and/or you did, but that you missed the "numbers" cut off.
One must also remember that at the time of VBs conception there were many applauding the opportunities it provided and I wont even go near the Impulse issue.
Either way it's called "life" there have since been some "interesting" changes and some went forward and some went backward.
longjohn again
Ain't that a fact.
Either way, your professional colleagues deserve respect for the "fact" that they operate the same equipment to the same standards to which you are required.
You may have subjective opininons as to whether they or you do it "better" whatever that means, but they are only that, "subjective opinions".
QF and VB are both on learning curves and will, as they must in this business, forever be.
I suspect most in QF would admit that they have had to relearn some lessons and I'm sure VB would admit likewise.
In so far as income is concerned, I'm not getting into that other than to say that you should be supporting each other proactively as fellow proffesionals.
The "I'm more professional than you because...." routine is as futile an argument as to "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.", that is "interesting" but hardly the point.
This is THE Professional Pilots Forum, to be used for professional and rational discussion of your common issues, please continue to use it in that manner.
Oh and BTW if you sadly and desperately need an enemy, it should not be your fellow professional pilots.
If you think I am out of line I would appreciate an incisive post as to why this is so.
B747-400 F/O was binned as a result of his suggestion that
the LARGE majority of other drivers at DJ are guys who could never get into a real airline with proper pay for whatever reason, and basically grabbed any rope from Virgin to fly a 737.
then longjohn reflects that
Lets call a spade a spade, prior to Ansett's collapse, were not the vast majority of Virgin's low / nil jet time pilots AN and QF rejects?
Might I suggest that that "failing" to get a guernsey with either does not in itself mean anything, but that you did not fit their respective "cardboard cutouts " of what they believe represents "their sort of person" and/or you did, but that you missed the "numbers" cut off.
One must also remember that at the time of VBs conception there were many applauding the opportunities it provided and I wont even go near the Impulse issue.
Either way it's called "life" there have since been some "interesting" changes and some went forward and some went backward.
longjohn again
Just goes to show, aviation has little to do with experience or ability and a lot to do with luck.
Either way, your professional colleagues deserve respect for the "fact" that they operate the same equipment to the same standards to which you are required.
You may have subjective opininons as to whether they or you do it "better" whatever that means, but they are only that, "subjective opinions".
QF and VB are both on learning curves and will, as they must in this business, forever be.
I suspect most in QF would admit that they have had to relearn some lessons and I'm sure VB would admit likewise.
In so far as income is concerned, I'm not getting into that other than to say that you should be supporting each other proactively as fellow proffesionals.
The "I'm more professional than you because...." routine is as futile an argument as to "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.", that is "interesting" but hardly the point.
This is THE Professional Pilots Forum, to be used for professional and rational discussion of your common issues, please continue to use it in that manner.
Oh and BTW if you sadly and desperately need an enemy, it should not be your fellow professional pilots.
If you think I am out of line I would appreciate an incisive post as to why this is so.
Last edited by Woomera; 24th Sep 2002 at 02:01.
Longjohn,
Just for your info..
Looking at the people that joined Virgin prior to the collapse of Ansett.
We had people from the following airlines with Jet time..
Ansett all types
Australian airlines all types
Qantas mainline B747 and B737
Emirates B777 and A330
Airtours A320/A330
Air Hong Kong B747
Singapore B747
NJS B737 and BAe146
Air Nauru B737
Solomons B737
Polynesian B737
Easyjet B737
Cathay B747 and AIrbus
Saudi MD11
Some pommie outfit flying L1011's
Silkair B737
Condor B767/B757
Lauda B767
Air Vietnam B767
Transavia B737
KLM B737
Flight West F28
Freedom B737
Malaysian B737, A300, B747
AB airlines BAC111
British Midland A320 F70
There is more but I can't think of them at the moment.
I am pleased to see that you believe these people to be the rejects of aviation.
These people form the backbone of the training and checking department and have a huge amount of experience to pass on to the less experienced people that have been given a golden opportunity to fly in their own country.
It is funny you know - these people fly the aeroplane to the same standard as the old AN people used to, with less bull***** and most importantly no tie!
I know quite a few people that applied to both AN, TN and QF - only to be rejected by one or two of those and accepted by the other. Does this make them AN, or TN or QF rejects?
Just for your info..
Looking at the people that joined Virgin prior to the collapse of Ansett.
We had people from the following airlines with Jet time..
Ansett all types
Australian airlines all types
Qantas mainline B747 and B737
Emirates B777 and A330
Airtours A320/A330
Air Hong Kong B747
Singapore B747
NJS B737 and BAe146
Air Nauru B737
Solomons B737
Polynesian B737
Easyjet B737
Cathay B747 and AIrbus
Saudi MD11
Some pommie outfit flying L1011's
Silkair B737
Condor B767/B757
Lauda B767
Air Vietnam B767
Transavia B737
KLM B737
Flight West F28
Freedom B737
Malaysian B737, A300, B747
AB airlines BAC111
British Midland A320 F70
There is more but I can't think of them at the moment.
I am pleased to see that you believe these people to be the rejects of aviation.
These people form the backbone of the training and checking department and have a huge amount of experience to pass on to the less experienced people that have been given a golden opportunity to fly in their own country.
It is funny you know - these people fly the aeroplane to the same standard as the old AN people used to, with less bull***** and most importantly no tie!
I know quite a few people that applied to both AN, TN and QF - only to be rejected by one or two of those and accepted by the other. Does this make them AN, or TN or QF rejects?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: home with mum and the kids
Posts: 176
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps I should have kept my opinions to myself.
Woomera, I did not say that if you were rejected from AN or QF you were a total reject, simply that you were a reject from the AN & QF employment processes. As you so eloquently explained this should not be seen as anything else but that others were more suited to their criteria.
Devil, please re-read my post as you may have misunderstood. I asked whether the Virgin nil / low JET time pilots were more likely to be AN or QF rejects, NOT the pilots who joined with vast jet experience (which you generously listed).
I have not suggested that this is any kind of a safety issue, merely asked if it is truly the case.
In aviation, unlike the vast majority of other industries, pay is not necessarily an indicator of ability or capability, ARDU test pilots are paid less than Virgin Captains or even some Qantas S/O's.
However, the employer providing the most favourable working conditions in AUS is Qantas. That is a fact. Previously it was matched or bettered by Ansett. I think it is also fairly safe to assume that in addition to career opportunities, renumeration and terms and conditions form an important part of the decision of which employer one would choose in the vast majority of cases, all things being equal.
Therefore, my assumption is that if you work for Qantas (or Ansett in the past) you are working for the employer in the most demand. I say this personally as others may place higher emphasis on other criteria. You can therefore say that you were employed by the most desired employer and are paid accordingly.
After all, wouldn't we all like to be paid more to do the same job?
Nowhere did I suggest you were better because you worked for employer A.
At the end of the day the kid who did his QF cadet course 18 months ago may very well hold the left hand seat of a QF 767 in 18 months time, yet he has 10% of the experience held by most out of work AN pilots.
Luck, not ability or capability is responsible for this, the same kid could very well have been an Ansett cadet. The same kind of luck put the QF and AN 'reject' out of the doldrums and into the left hand seat of a 737.
Lets all be grateful for lady luck whilst we bask in her warm glow, after all, not many people are blessed with permanent good fortune
On another note, I find it curious that at times the notion of free speech is tested on this forum in regards to Virgin. Some may have strong feelings on this subject as others do with respect to the 89' dispute, yet the same degree of tolerance is not applied.
I am constantly suprised by the loud calls to silence some for what simply may be a misguided opinion. Just as in 89' there is a large group out there with strong feelings about the events of the last 18 months in Australian aviation, to silence their opinions is to deny reality.
As I have said before, live and let live, but lets not distort or worse deny the facts or hide the truth.
Woomera, I did not say that if you were rejected from AN or QF you were a total reject, simply that you were a reject from the AN & QF employment processes. As you so eloquently explained this should not be seen as anything else but that others were more suited to their criteria.
Devil, please re-read my post as you may have misunderstood. I asked whether the Virgin nil / low JET time pilots were more likely to be AN or QF rejects, NOT the pilots who joined with vast jet experience (which you generously listed).
I have not suggested that this is any kind of a safety issue, merely asked if it is truly the case.
In aviation, unlike the vast majority of other industries, pay is not necessarily an indicator of ability or capability, ARDU test pilots are paid less than Virgin Captains or even some Qantas S/O's.
However, the employer providing the most favourable working conditions in AUS is Qantas. That is a fact. Previously it was matched or bettered by Ansett. I think it is also fairly safe to assume that in addition to career opportunities, renumeration and terms and conditions form an important part of the decision of which employer one would choose in the vast majority of cases, all things being equal.
Therefore, my assumption is that if you work for Qantas (or Ansett in the past) you are working for the employer in the most demand. I say this personally as others may place higher emphasis on other criteria. You can therefore say that you were employed by the most desired employer and are paid accordingly.
After all, wouldn't we all like to be paid more to do the same job?
Nowhere did I suggest you were better because you worked for employer A.
At the end of the day the kid who did his QF cadet course 18 months ago may very well hold the left hand seat of a QF 767 in 18 months time, yet he has 10% of the experience held by most out of work AN pilots.
Luck, not ability or capability is responsible for this, the same kid could very well have been an Ansett cadet. The same kind of luck put the QF and AN 'reject' out of the doldrums and into the left hand seat of a 737.
Lets all be grateful for lady luck whilst we bask in her warm glow, after all, not many people are blessed with permanent good fortune
On another note, I find it curious that at times the notion of free speech is tested on this forum in regards to Virgin. Some may have strong feelings on this subject as others do with respect to the 89' dispute, yet the same degree of tolerance is not applied.
I am constantly suprised by the loud calls to silence some for what simply may be a misguided opinion. Just as in 89' there is a large group out there with strong feelings about the events of the last 18 months in Australian aviation, to silence their opinions is to deny reality.
As I have said before, live and let live, but lets not distort or worse deny the facts or hide the truth.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Aust
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
747 FO's opinions probably offended alot of people, regardless of their merits or otherwise. I do not consider 747FOs opinion to be reasoned but that's just my opinion. What I do find a bit suprising is that every day there are a lot worse things said about companies and individuals on these boards that result in no action. The lines written about VB are pretty tame by comparison.
I commend Woomera on his new standard. I just hope it isn't a variable standard like the NRL Judiciary at the moment (finals fever
)
I commend Woomera on his new standard. I just hope it isn't a variable standard like the NRL Judiciary at the moment (finals fever
)
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No one will deney your right to give your opinion on any subject. However the title of this post is Virgin EBA poll. One would assume from this that people reading this particular item could care less what you think of VB. If you must vent your spleen about how terrible you think VB is please feel free to start another topic and leave this one to people who are trying to find out information about the EBA. If you don't work for VB an have some constructive comments ( as opposed to non helpful banter and opinion making) about how these pilots can improve there conditons then please join in and pass on your comments. Every pilot group in every airline should be striving to improve there conditions, no matter what thier circumstances there is always ways that a contract/agreement can be improved.
As to why people chose to work for VB that is there business, the reasons are many and varied. Some by choise and I suppose some out of desperation ( a bit like ex AN capts joining QF as a S/O!). I joined VB because I wanted to. I have never applied to QF, never manage to get an interview with AN, almost had one with TN before they were taken over. I chose to work for NJS many years ago because of where I would be based and a 146 command and doubling my RAAF salary. I chose to go to VB because a got a quick command slightly better money and a lot better aeroplane. I work about as hard as I did NJS but with more overnights, but probably no more than any other 737 pilot in the world.
So please could we stop being so critical of each others operations, any lets use this forum for what it was invented for. Communicating, helping, informing, learning.
As to why people chose to work for VB that is there business, the reasons are many and varied. Some by choise and I suppose some out of desperation ( a bit like ex AN capts joining QF as a S/O!). I joined VB because I wanted to. I have never applied to QF, never manage to get an interview with AN, almost had one with TN before they were taken over. I chose to work for NJS many years ago because of where I would be based and a 146 command and doubling my RAAF salary. I chose to go to VB because a got a quick command slightly better money and a lot better aeroplane. I work about as hard as I did NJS but with more overnights, but probably no more than any other 737 pilot in the world.
So please could we stop being so critical of each others operations, any lets use this forum for what it was invented for. Communicating, helping, informing, learning.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The following extract is from the Ryanair website. Seems that a low cost airline doesn't have to mean low cost pilot wages!
Why join Ryanair ?
1. Outstanding earning potential – Current agreement has Captains’ grossed up earnings running from STG£88,700 to in excess of STG£100,000 and First Officer grossed up earnings running from STG£66,000 to in excess of STG£70,620 *2.
2. Fixed roster pattern - 5 on, 3 off, 5 on, 3 off, fixed days off, no scheduled overnights permitting Pilots to plan their lives with certainty
3. Unrivalled Career Progression – potential for command within 3 years
4. Loss of Licence Insurance Cover of €190,000
5. 5 Year Agreement on pay, benefits and share options
6. Share Option Scheme – which has seen returns of €230,000 in 4 years for existing pilots
7. Excellent Flight Benefits from day one
What can I expect to earn ?
The table below gives you an indication of the potential earnings for pilots in the UK.
UK based Pilots Earnings
- Extract from Ryanair Pilots UK 5 Year Agreement
Position 2002 Year 5 of Agreement
Senior Captain STG94,700 STG102,140
Captain STG88,700 STG96,140
Senior First Officer STG66,600 STG70,620
* 1 - Ryanair Pilots UK 5 Year Agreement * 2 -Currently pilots joining Ryanair are on phased sector pay for the first 6 months i.e. 50%. After six months on the line 100% sector allowances apply.
Rosters
Ryanair pilots enjoy a stable roster pattern which essentially allows them to plan their lives with a large degree of certainty. In the UK pilots work a basic pattern of 5 Earlies followed by 3 days off followed by 5 Lates followed by 3 days off, with the Roster issued 4 weeks in advance, in addition to this if you work a rostered day off you receive a Nett payment of STG£200 in addition to sector pay.
Share Options
As a Ryanair Pilot you may qualify for participation in our Employee Share Option Scheme which could give you €12,697 worth of options per year over a 5 year period subject to the company increasing post tax profits by 20% per annum. As part of the 5 Year Pilot Agreement negotiated in November 2000 our pilots were awarded an additional allocation of €127,000 worth of Share Options at €10.00. Our pilots like all of our people work hard and we reward them with a stake in the Airline. The table below demonstrates how valuable shares / options have become since Ryanair floated in 1997.
Growth in Value of Options granted to Ryanair Pilots
Year Granted Gain *
1997 - Floatation €118,974
1998 - Options € 38,743
1999- Options € 27,807
2000 - Options € 9,142
2000 - 5 year Agreement € 35,045
2001 - Options € 1,143
Total Gain to date €230,584
* * Based on closing price of €6.38 on 22nd January 2002. Reflects a 2:1 share split on February 2000 and a further 2:1 share split on December 7th 2001.
Our people share directly in the success that we have all created. A Pilot with Ryanair since 1996, and who has held all shares / options has made a gain of €230,584 in just 6 years !
Why join Ryanair ?
1. Outstanding earning potential – Current agreement has Captains’ grossed up earnings running from STG£88,700 to in excess of STG£100,000 and First Officer grossed up earnings running from STG£66,000 to in excess of STG£70,620 *2.
2. Fixed roster pattern - 5 on, 3 off, 5 on, 3 off, fixed days off, no scheduled overnights permitting Pilots to plan their lives with certainty
3. Unrivalled Career Progression – potential for command within 3 years
4. Loss of Licence Insurance Cover of €190,000
5. 5 Year Agreement on pay, benefits and share options
6. Share Option Scheme – which has seen returns of €230,000 in 4 years for existing pilots
7. Excellent Flight Benefits from day one
What can I expect to earn ?
The table below gives you an indication of the potential earnings for pilots in the UK.
UK based Pilots Earnings
- Extract from Ryanair Pilots UK 5 Year Agreement
Position 2002 Year 5 of Agreement
Senior Captain STG94,700 STG102,140
Captain STG88,700 STG96,140
Senior First Officer STG66,600 STG70,620
* 1 - Ryanair Pilots UK 5 Year Agreement * 2 -Currently pilots joining Ryanair are on phased sector pay for the first 6 months i.e. 50%. After six months on the line 100% sector allowances apply.
Rosters
Ryanair pilots enjoy a stable roster pattern which essentially allows them to plan their lives with a large degree of certainty. In the UK pilots work a basic pattern of 5 Earlies followed by 3 days off followed by 5 Lates followed by 3 days off, with the Roster issued 4 weeks in advance, in addition to this if you work a rostered day off you receive a Nett payment of STG£200 in addition to sector pay.
Share Options
As a Ryanair Pilot you may qualify for participation in our Employee Share Option Scheme which could give you €12,697 worth of options per year over a 5 year period subject to the company increasing post tax profits by 20% per annum. As part of the 5 Year Pilot Agreement negotiated in November 2000 our pilots were awarded an additional allocation of €127,000 worth of Share Options at €10.00. Our pilots like all of our people work hard and we reward them with a stake in the Airline. The table below demonstrates how valuable shares / options have become since Ryanair floated in 1997.
Growth in Value of Options granted to Ryanair Pilots
Year Granted Gain *
1997 - Floatation €118,974
1998 - Options € 38,743
1999- Options € 27,807
2000 - Options € 9,142
2000 - 5 year Agreement € 35,045
2001 - Options € 1,143
Total Gain to date €230,584
* * Based on closing price of €6.38 on 22nd January 2002. Reflects a 2:1 share split on February 2000 and a further 2:1 share split on December 7th 2001.
Our people share directly in the success that we have all created. A Pilot with Ryanair since 1996, and who has held all shares / options has made a gain of €230,584 in just 6 years !
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Melbourne,Vic, Australia
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe so in terms of British pounds but as a mate of mine in BA who lives in London constantly reminds me that earning 100,000 British Pounds is the equivalent in terms of buying power of earning A$100,000!
We can convert currencies till the cows come home but try to live in London on BP 70,000 a year and your lifestyle will be the equivalent of earning about $60,000 in Oz.
Its an expensive place.
My opinion?
The VB pilots although having accepted these wages in Oz do deserve alot more but realistically speaking I dont believe they'll have much luck twisting the arms of Corrigan or that tite-arse Branson.
We can convert currencies till the cows come home but try to live in London on BP 70,000 a year and your lifestyle will be the equivalent of earning about $60,000 in Oz.
Its an expensive place.
My opinion?
The VB pilots although having accepted these wages in Oz do deserve alot more but realistically speaking I dont believe they'll have much luck twisting the arms of Corrigan or that tite-arse Branson.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Sydney.
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1013
You may be correct about the cost of living in London but I think you will find that most Ryanair pilots live in the "home counties" or Ireland, both of which are cheaper to live in.
You may be correct about the cost of living in London but I think you will find that most Ryanair pilots live in the "home counties" or Ireland, both of which are cheaper to live in.
Last edited by Sopwith Pup; 27th Sep 2002 at 05:15.
No ADL then?
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: SE Asia
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've just been looking through the threads, and came across this one.
Isn't 747-400 FO a particularly offensive individual?? Well done Woomera - leave him out for a year or so.
I would imagine he's Qantas with an attitude like that. Is it any wonder that when he gets to be a Captain he probably won't utter a word to the poor old SO on the way to London, or Rio, orin the crew room? He'll be above all that.
Difficult to believe your attitude 747 (400) FO.
It's probably been said elsewhere, and I think I may even have said it, that if you're rejected by AN, QF, or indeed any airline, it is not that you are not good enough, but just that you're not good enough on the day. If you were never good enough, you wouldn't even get an look in. Of course, there will always be those who do not hold even the minimum qualifications who do apply, and are rejected because of that. But they are always welcome to come back and have a go when they do.
Isn't 747-400 FO a particularly offensive individual?? Well done Woomera - leave him out for a year or so.
I would imagine he's Qantas with an attitude like that. Is it any wonder that when he gets to be a Captain he probably won't utter a word to the poor old SO on the way to London, or Rio, orin the crew room? He'll be above all that.
Difficult to believe your attitude 747 (400) FO.
It's probably been said elsewhere, and I think I may even have said it, that if you're rejected by AN, QF, or indeed any airline, it is not that you are not good enough, but just that you're not good enough on the day. If you were never good enough, you wouldn't even get an look in. Of course, there will always be those who do not hold even the minimum qualifications who do apply, and are rejected because of that. But they are always welcome to come back and have a go when they do.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The Tap!
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Glad I learnt English as a first language - CitizenXX must have some real troubles with interpretation. CitizenXX, your post is as clear as mud. Care to enlighten us on what you are saying?