Meloz and 89
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Well, actually M , a few posts ago you said that someone got biffed in Sydney, didn't you? The car and the dog poo: GA pilots operating at Melb, used the car park near the old freight hangers (as did the CSO and air freight staff). I cant remember the month, but maybe early '90. the car park was dug up and the staff car park near the terminal was made available for GA pilots for a time. It was in this car park that the poo incident occured; It wasn't fenced. I have no doubt it was a case of 'mistaken identity', if ya know what I mean. I still shouldn't of happened though.
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Just a tidbit to add some perspective...during the Continental strike of '83, two striking crewmembers were arrested for placing pipe-bombs in the mail boxes of strike-breakers.....
As a diligent reader of this topic, I am pleased to see it progress to so many posts without getting the padlock. Very well written by both sides.
7x7, particularly enjoyed your post.
7x7, particularly enjoyed your post.
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My contributions are thus,
The new contract at Ansett handed to returnees represented huge efficiency gains. The hourly cost pre 89 was far higher.
Kap M is re writing history - the acts of vandalism and intimidation/threats by AFAP members are well documented.
The dispute ended the day HP 737's touched down in Oz. Its called - the writing is on the wall boys.
The AFAP lacked political savvy more than any other union in oz. Its arrogance and ignorance was breathtaking. Its members were duped by management. They still think they acted correctly even though it resulted in most members losing their jobs. The end game was a pay rise - was it really worth it.
The new contract at Ansett handed to returnees represented huge efficiency gains. The hourly cost pre 89 was far higher.
Kap M is re writing history - the acts of vandalism and intimidation/threats by AFAP members are well documented.
The dispute ended the day HP 737's touched down in Oz. Its called - the writing is on the wall boys.
The AFAP lacked political savvy more than any other union in oz. Its arrogance and ignorance was breathtaking. Its members were duped by management. They still think they acted correctly even though it resulted in most members losing their jobs. The end game was a pay rise - was it really worth it.
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Dear kaptin m,
Re the incidents at the Hammo you need go no further than your "mates" at DJ and ask a few of them about the incident. They will be happy to give you the names. I once again could but I dont stoop to that level like others. You could also ask a few of your more liberal minded 89ers (who got caught in the mellee) but I guess you dont talk to them as they associate with Sc%bs.
Great to see you admit to a few little "actions" also. You did not mention the sc%b stickers all over th car park at a shopping centre close to where you used to live. I guess that was just a coincidence that it used to happen when you were visiting Aust.
Keep up the ravings. You are loosing the last bit of credibility you may of had with your recent outbursts.
Re the incidents at the Hammo you need go no further than your "mates" at DJ and ask a few of them about the incident. They will be happy to give you the names. I once again could but I dont stoop to that level like others. You could also ask a few of your more liberal minded 89ers (who got caught in the mellee) but I guess you dont talk to them as they associate with Sc%bs.
Great to see you admit to a few little "actions" also. You did not mention the sc%b stickers all over th car park at a shopping centre close to where you used to live. I guess that was just a coincidence that it used to happen when you were visiting Aust.
Keep up the ravings. You are loosing the last bit of credibility you may of had with your recent outbursts.
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OhBehave...welcome to Prune. Where have you been hiding?
Good to see your post. Still a bit puzzled though. If the new contracts were so productive why didn't the Ansett (and Australian) negotiators present them to the legitimate collective bargaining representatives of their employees. Seems silly to spend lets say $500 million (each airline) to implement something that a fax and a beer could have fixed by August 23, 1989.
Second, if indeed the new contracts were so efficient...WHAT HAPPENED TO ANSETT?
Third...I know from first hand discussions that AA 737 and AN 320 drivers had all flown up to the then ANO limits in the year or two prior to 1989 to facilitate the introduction of the then new fleets. This was done at the old pay scale. Why was it necessary to pay a different bunch of guys far, far more the year after 1989 to do the same job? I mean how much more efficient could they have been?
Good to see your post. Still a bit puzzled though. If the new contracts were so productive why didn't the Ansett (and Australian) negotiators present them to the legitimate collective bargaining representatives of their employees. Seems silly to spend lets say $500 million (each airline) to implement something that a fax and a beer could have fixed by August 23, 1989.
Second, if indeed the new contracts were so efficient...WHAT HAPPENED TO ANSETT?
Third...I know from first hand discussions that AA 737 and AN 320 drivers had all flown up to the then ANO limits in the year or two prior to 1989 to facilitate the introduction of the then new fleets. This was done at the old pay scale. Why was it necessary to pay a different bunch of guys far, far more the year after 1989 to do the same job? I mean how much more efficient could they have been?
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Elektra,
1)Good point....why won't we presented with the new contracts.As I said previosly,at my AFAP office they was a copy being waived around,but interestingly enough we were not allowed to peruse it.We were only fed the Union banter of it being a discrace,unworkable and if memory serves me right it was even called illegal.Now I know the Contract was available for anyone at the time to look at by simply asking the Companies,no obligation.
2) This may come as a surprise to some, but the Dispute was not the reason that Ansett fell over,and you would have a difficult job convincing 99% of the population otherwise.Indeed Ansett (and others) was hurt by the dispute,but any Financial shortfall would have (or rather should have)been reflected in the Sale price after due dilligance by Air New Zealand,and Singaopre Airlines before they were Gazumped.The downfall of Ansett was due to many reasons,none of which was the dispute.If that theory held any ground then Qantas should also be looking shaky.
3)I can tell you from first hand experience that prior to the dispute I was doing no where near the hours your first hand discussions were claiming.In fact a quick check of my log book reveals in the 2 years prior to I did 540 hours (including a conversion) and that was from someone who wanted to fly.
Talk about efficiency,I also recal flying with a Brizzy F-27 Captain who bragged about having done 1100 hours in 11 years.You know who I'm talking about and you know it was true.you would also know there were plenty like him. On my return I did 800 hours in the first year back and grossed 70% more than the 12 months (flying) before.Thats effeciency!!!.
1)Good point....why won't we presented with the new contracts.As I said previosly,at my AFAP office they was a copy being waived around,but interestingly enough we were not allowed to peruse it.We were only fed the Union banter of it being a discrace,unworkable and if memory serves me right it was even called illegal.Now I know the Contract was available for anyone at the time to look at by simply asking the Companies,no obligation.
2) This may come as a surprise to some, but the Dispute was not the reason that Ansett fell over,and you would have a difficult job convincing 99% of the population otherwise.Indeed Ansett (and others) was hurt by the dispute,but any Financial shortfall would have (or rather should have)been reflected in the Sale price after due dilligance by Air New Zealand,and Singaopre Airlines before they were Gazumped.The downfall of Ansett was due to many reasons,none of which was the dispute.If that theory held any ground then Qantas should also be looking shaky.
3)I can tell you from first hand experience that prior to the dispute I was doing no where near the hours your first hand discussions were claiming.In fact a quick check of my log book reveals in the 2 years prior to I did 540 hours (including a conversion) and that was from someone who wanted to fly.
Talk about efficiency,I also recal flying with a Brizzy F-27 Captain who bragged about having done 1100 hours in 11 years.You know who I'm talking about and you know it was true.you would also know there were plenty like him. On my return I did 800 hours in the first year back and grossed 70% more than the 12 months (flying) before.Thats effeciency!!!.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
What was 1989 all about? (wrt Australian domestic aviation).
It was about ALL of Australia's domestic airline pilots - employed by Ansett, Australian (TAA), East-West, and IPEC - who were represented by the AFAP (the Federation) attempting to achieve the same thing they had done for the previous 3 decades. A NEGOTIATED revision and renewal of their ESTABLISHED, previously negotiated and agreed-to (by ALL parties) contracts of employment.
It was also about the AFAP, deciding IN CONSULTATION with the pilots, that "The Accord" - a Federal (Hawke) Government initiated, ACTU backed agreement that limited SOME (not ALL) workers salary claims to a fixed increment (6% from memory) - to which the AFAP had VOLUNTARILY agreed to participate for a period that ENDED in 1989. Incidentally, Abeles held a position of authority on the Accord committe (for which I'm sure he would have received ample remuneration).
That the pilots union, the AFAP, was not an affiliate of the ACTU (in spite of repeated attempts by the latter to get us to join them, and which stuck in the ACTU's craw) meant that there was NO further obligation for the pilots to continue under a system of wage restraint that was clearly disadvantaging us.
The [i]AMBIT CLAIM[/b] (ie. the first "offer") wrt salary was a 29.47% increase, to make up for the "relativity" pilots' salaries had lost - "relativity" meaning before, and up to our VOLUNTARY joining of "The Accord", we were able to draw near comparisons between our incomes and incomes of other groups.
Unfortunately for us, pilots are envied by some workers in other jobs who believe that we are simply overpaid prima donnas. Tough!! That's what I invested MY TIME, MY MONEY, and MY BRAINPOWER in obtaining - anyone else who wants to do likewise is quite entitled to do so.
The FACT is, pilots who were employed on the Individual Contracts were granted far in excess of the 29.47% AMBIT submitted by the AFAP, on behalf of its pilots!
The pilots never withdrew their labour completely - there was a limited 9am - 5pm work action that ran for almost a week, before the Airlines "stood aside" each and every pilot, effectively shutting down ALL operations.
The airline companies than began suing pilots on a one-by-one basis, issuing writs for "unspecified damages" (effectively meaning each pilot would be "taken to the cleaners" - Abeles had done this previously in New Zealand to his employees, a group of seamen in a company named "United Bulk Steamships").
Using the best legal advice available in Australia, the Federation was advised that to protect their members from any further, ongoing claims, they (the pilots) would have to become non-employees ie. RESIGN.
Although lucrative in dollar terms, the Individual Contracts took away what was, and still supposedly is, the individual's right to be represented by whomever he chooses - in OUR case it was and ALWAYS had been the AFAP.
The AFAP continued to represent the pilots in court cases with the airlines for all of 1989 and 1990 as the Dispute continued, and pilots remained hopeful of a NEGOTIATED settlement.
Other pilots who "stuck their noses" into our business were KNOWINGLY interfering in an industrial dispute, and consequently were termed "scabs" - not only by the affected pilots, but also by OTHER Australian UNIONS.
Stories of harrassment received plenty of airing, however one only needs to read back through this thread to find that the majority of this "harrassment" consisted of telephone calls, name-calling ("SCAB"), and the latest from Pole Vaulter, " scab stickers all over th car park at a shopping centre.. - but nothing like the "broken arms and hands" thuggery type stuff Abeles tried to imply was going on.
And it was the last year I paid Australian Income Tax
It was about ALL of Australia's domestic airline pilots - employed by Ansett, Australian (TAA), East-West, and IPEC - who were represented by the AFAP (the Federation) attempting to achieve the same thing they had done for the previous 3 decades. A NEGOTIATED revision and renewal of their ESTABLISHED, previously negotiated and agreed-to (by ALL parties) contracts of employment.
It was also about the AFAP, deciding IN CONSULTATION with the pilots, that "The Accord" - a Federal (Hawke) Government initiated, ACTU backed agreement that limited SOME (not ALL) workers salary claims to a fixed increment (6% from memory) - to which the AFAP had VOLUNTARILY agreed to participate for a period that ENDED in 1989. Incidentally, Abeles held a position of authority on the Accord committe (for which I'm sure he would have received ample remuneration).
That the pilots union, the AFAP, was not an affiliate of the ACTU (in spite of repeated attempts by the latter to get us to join them, and which stuck in the ACTU's craw) meant that there was NO further obligation for the pilots to continue under a system of wage restraint that was clearly disadvantaging us.
The [i]AMBIT CLAIM[/b] (ie. the first "offer") wrt salary was a 29.47% increase, to make up for the "relativity" pilots' salaries had lost - "relativity" meaning before, and up to our VOLUNTARY joining of "The Accord", we were able to draw near comparisons between our incomes and incomes of other groups.
Unfortunately for us, pilots are envied by some workers in other jobs who believe that we are simply overpaid prima donnas. Tough!! That's what I invested MY TIME, MY MONEY, and MY BRAINPOWER in obtaining - anyone else who wants to do likewise is quite entitled to do so.
The FACT is, pilots who were employed on the Individual Contracts were granted far in excess of the 29.47% AMBIT submitted by the AFAP, on behalf of its pilots!
The pilots never withdrew their labour completely - there was a limited 9am - 5pm work action that ran for almost a week, before the Airlines "stood aside" each and every pilot, effectively shutting down ALL operations.
The airline companies than began suing pilots on a one-by-one basis, issuing writs for "unspecified damages" (effectively meaning each pilot would be "taken to the cleaners" - Abeles had done this previously in New Zealand to his employees, a group of seamen in a company named "United Bulk Steamships").
Using the best legal advice available in Australia, the Federation was advised that to protect their members from any further, ongoing claims, they (the pilots) would have to become non-employees ie. RESIGN.
Although lucrative in dollar terms, the Individual Contracts took away what was, and still supposedly is, the individual's right to be represented by whomever he chooses - in OUR case it was and ALWAYS had been the AFAP.
The AFAP continued to represent the pilots in court cases with the airlines for all of 1989 and 1990 as the Dispute continued, and pilots remained hopeful of a NEGOTIATED settlement.
Other pilots who "stuck their noses" into our business were KNOWINGLY interfering in an industrial dispute, and consequently were termed "scabs" - not only by the affected pilots, but also by OTHER Australian UNIONS.
Stories of harrassment received plenty of airing, however one only needs to read back through this thread to find that the majority of this "harrassment" consisted of telephone calls, name-calling ("SCAB"), and the latest from Pole Vaulter, " scab stickers all over th car park at a shopping centre.. - but nothing like the "broken arms and hands" thuggery type stuff Abeles tried to imply was going on.
And it was the last year I paid Australian Income Tax
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Kaptin-M...mate!!! hmmmm bad choice of word...any of your ramblings and utterings should be put on the Qantas verbal reasoning test for the new hires, as I can't understand what the **** you are on or talking about....but then its probably why I didn't pass.......I think you like to see yourself in print, with visions of grandeur some where... but certainly not in aviation...........
Lets keep to the thread issues shall we, not the personality, lest you become eponymic.
W
Lets keep to the thread issues shall we, not the personality, lest you become eponymic.
W
Last edited by Woomera; 17th Sep 2002 at 01:41.
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This topic has gone past the 100 post limit, but as so far it has proceeded politely for the most, for that I thank you, I am going to split it to allow the discussion to continue.
