Joyce ‘retires’ early 👍
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There a currently two hearings being broadcast: TWU v Qantas and Al Muderis v Nine.
There a currently two hearings being broadcast: TWU v Qantas and Al Muderis v Nine.
He in his wisdom has conveniently forgotten that Qantas would have been receiving jobkeeper payments from the govt to pass on to every employee.
Where does this company get these high flying executives from that constantly embarrass themselves every time their lips move.
Its also hilarious that the so called COO Colin Hughes is claiming the workforce would have remained stood down during 2021( that part is true) & then goes on to say they wouldnt have been paid.
He in his wisdom has conveniently forgotten that Qantas would have been receiving jobkeeper payments from the govt to pass on to every employee.
Where does this company get these high flying executives from that constantly embarrass themselves every time their lips move.
He in his wisdom has conveniently forgotten that Qantas would have been receiving jobkeeper payments from the govt to pass on to every employee.
Where does this company get these high flying executives from that constantly embarrass themselves every time their lips move.
That was what he said if one listened to it carefully instead of listening hoping that your football team was going to win. He said jobkeeper ceased and then it morphed into an airline specific package,
Keep your eye on the judge, he is on top of it.
Its also hilarious that the so called COO Colin Hughes is claiming the workforce would have remained stood down during 2021( that part is true) & then goes on to say they wouldnt have been paid.
He in his wisdom has conveniently forgotten that Qantas would have been receiving jobkeeper payments from the govt to pass on to every employee.
Where does this company get these high flying executives from that constantly embarrass themselves every time their lips move.
He in his wisdom has conveniently forgotten that Qantas would have been receiving jobkeeper payments from the govt to pass on to every employee.
Where does this company get these high flying executives from that constantly embarrass themselves every time their lips move.
The case is all about compensation.
Qantas is saying: “ we would have retrenched you after 12 months in any case” so we are willing to pay 12 months pay as compensation.
The 3 TWU members are saying that they would have stayed working for Qf for the rest of their lives so compensation should be for the rest of the individuals working career.
As a consequence the arguments so far are about what would have happened. Strange, but that is what the evidence is all about.
The word “ counterfactual” is thrown about like confetti. The judge frequently uses the words” but for” which I guess means: “ what do you think would have happened but for……
Last edited by JamieMaree; 20th Mar 2024 at 10:18.
Qantas was warned that a legal challenge to outsourcing was ‘inevitable’
A Federal Court hearing to determine how much compensation should be paid to outsourced Qantas workers, has been told the airline was warned a legal challenge was inevitable.
Robyn IronsideAviation Writer @ironsider
less than 2 min read
March 21, 2024 - 6:00AMThe Australian Business Network
A Federal Court hearing to determine what compensation should be paid to former Qantas ground handling workers whose jobs were unlawfully outsourced has been told the airline was warned early in the process that legal action was inevitable. Giving evidence for a second day, former Qantas chief operating officer Colin Hughes, who was in charge of airport operations when the outsourcing occurred, said meetings with lawyers and industrial relations consultants were held in early June 2020.
The meetings discussed the certainty of a Transport Workers Union legal challenge to the outsourcing, because TWU national secretary Michael Kaine was “a lawyer who liked litigation”.
There was also discussion about the need for reasons for the outsourcing to be assessed by lawyers and a “decision maker” to be chosen.
Barrister Mark Gibian SC for the TWU said Herbert Smith Freehills partner Rohan Doyle told a meeting on June 1, 2020 “what the decision maker would ultimately say would be important in relation to the reasons”.
“Mr Doyle then said ‘it’s too early to give you a number on prospects’ – you understood that to be a reference to some sort of percentage prospect?” Mr Gibian said. “Yes that’s right,” Mr Hughes responded.
Justice Michael Lee asked Mr Hughes if it struck him as “a little odd that the concern was about what the decision maker says about the reasons, rather than saying what the reasons were”.
“It didn’t occur to me,” said Mr Hughes.
Discussion about who would be anointed the “decision maker” followed, with Mr Hughes suggesting that then chief operating officer Paul Jones seemed the most likely candidate.
“Paul is saying ‘I’ve done the work, logically I’m the right person and if it’s not me how far do you want to separate that out from the work that’s been done’,” said Mr Hughes.
Ultimately it was the then Qantas Domestic and International CEO Andrew David who was named as the decision maker, although the court hearing made it clear former CEO Alan Joyce was involved through the process.
The comment re. keeping the payouts to a minimum is farcical. We received an email three days ago that the company “wanted the workers to receive “fair compensation””. I am sickened by the hypocrisy of our management. Their social credit is below zero.
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I wonder if anyone at Qantas is thinking that maybe just maybe we should have settled this at mediation.
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Robyn IronsideAviation Writer
@ironsider
2 min read
March 21, 2024 - 2:23PMThe Australian Business Network
Qantas and the Transport Workers Union are back in the Federal Court, over compensation payments to outsourced ground handling workers. Picture: NCA NewsWireQantas’ case in Federal Court hearings to determine compensation for unlawfully outsourced workers has been dealt a blow after the judge appeared to dismiss the evidence of a key witness.
Former chief operating officer Colin Hughes has argued he would still have recommended the outsourcing of the workers in 2021, if it had not occurred in 2020.
The argument is critical to Qantas’ case, which seeks to minimise its liability for compensation to a 12-month period, rather than the much broader time frame sought by the Transport Workers Union.
Evidence presented by TWU barrister Mark Gibian SC showed Qantas was expecting flying to increase considerably in 2021, making a mass outsourcing exercise less likely.
A statement by then chief executive Alan Joyce made on March 11, 2021, announcing further federal government assistance, talked about domestic flying returning to 80 per cent by mid-year.
“You would not have (recommended outsourcing) in February or March of 2021 because there was growing demand,” Mr Gibian put to Mr Hughes.
“I reject that entirely,” said Mr Hughes.
“The business had continued to lose money, there was spare capacity in the industry and there was an opportunity to save a significant sum of money.”
Mr Gibian suggested his evidence “was self-serving to help Qantas’ case” and did not reflect the facts.
Justice Michael Lee then weighed in, telling the court he would “work on what Mr Joyce said to the market”.
“I’m going to work on the basis that what Mr Joyce was saying at the time, reflects the true position of Qantas at the time,” said Justice Lee.
“You’ve got no basis to disagree with what Mr Joyce was saying?”
“No,” replied Mr Hughes.
Qantas outsourced its baggage handling, ground services and cleaning operations in 2020 in a decision the Federal Court ruled was unlawful in 2022. Picture: Gaye GerardThe next witness, former Qantas Domestic and International CEO Andrew David, said by June 2021 it was apparent the pandemic and associated restrictions on travel would continue to gouge the airline’s bottom line.
He said on that basis, there was no question he would have made the same decision to outsource the ground handling operation for “lawful commercial reasons” that he did in 2020.
“The case for me would’ve been as compelling as it was in August 2020, (because of) the impacts that the Delta strain had on the business and the position we found ourselves in,” said Mr David.
Asked about the factors taken into account in the decision-making process, Mr David said he understood there to be “considerable risk, but I had to assess those risks against the rewards of the commercial benefits of outsourcing”.
As well as the industrial risks, Mr David said there were concerns about the government response.
“That was a concern in 2020, and it would’ve been a concern in 2021,” Mr David told the court.
“Qantas was one of the main recipients of Jobkeeper, I think in total we got $850m from the government through Jobkeeper. I was very cognisant that us outsourcing 1700 workers in the context of the Jobkeeper scheme was an issue that needed to be managed carefully with the government.”
Although Jobkeeper ended in March 2021, Qantas continued to receive government support to the tune of $800m for its domestic business and $86m for international, said Mr David.
“In 2020, we got the government to a position where they understood we had to make this (outsourcing) decision because of the financial pressures,” he said.
Hearings to determine compensation were set down until Tuesday
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Court blow for Qantas in compensation hearings for outsourced workers
Qantas’ case in compensation hearings for unlawfully outsourcing workers has been dealt a blow with Federal Court justice Michael Lee dismissing evidence from a key witness.Robyn IronsideAviation Writer@ironsider
2 min read
March 21, 2024 - 2:23PMThe Australian Business Network
Qantas and the Transport Workers Union are back in the Federal Court, over compensation payments to outsourced ground handling workers. Picture: NCA NewsWireQantas’ case in Federal Court hearings to determine compensation for unlawfully outsourced workers has been dealt a blow after the judge appeared to dismiss the evidence of a key witness. Former chief operating officer Colin Hughes has argued he would still have recommended the outsourcing of the workers in 2021, if it had not occurred in 2020.
The argument is critical to Qantas’ case, which seeks to minimise its liability for compensation to a 12-month period, rather than the much broader time frame sought by the Transport Workers Union.
Evidence presented by TWU barrister Mark Gibian SC showed Qantas was expecting flying to increase considerably in 2021, making a mass outsourcing exercise less likely.
A statement by then chief executive Alan Joyce made on March 11, 2021, announcing further federal government assistance, talked about domestic flying returning to 80 per cent by mid-year.
“You would not have (recommended outsourcing) in February or March of 2021 because there was growing demand,” Mr Gibian put to Mr Hughes.
“I reject that entirely,” said Mr Hughes.
“The business had continued to lose money, there was spare capacity in the industry and there was an opportunity to save a significant sum of money.”
Mr Gibian suggested his evidence “was self-serving to help Qantas’ case” and did not reflect the facts.
Justice Michael Lee then weighed in, telling the court he would “work on what Mr Joyce said to the market”.
“I’m going to work on the basis that what Mr Joyce was saying at the time, reflects the true position of Qantas at the time,” said Justice Lee.
“You’ve got no basis to disagree with what Mr Joyce was saying?”
“No,” replied Mr Hughes.
Qantas outsourced its baggage handling, ground services and cleaning operations in 2020 in a decision the Federal Court ruled was unlawful in 2022. Picture: Gaye GerardThe next witness, former Qantas Domestic and International CEO Andrew David, said by June 2021 it was apparent the pandemic and associated restrictions on travel would continue to gouge the airline’s bottom line. He said on that basis, there was no question he would have made the same decision to outsource the ground handling operation for “lawful commercial reasons” that he did in 2020.
“The case for me would’ve been as compelling as it was in August 2020, (because of) the impacts that the Delta strain had on the business and the position we found ourselves in,” said Mr David.
Asked about the factors taken into account in the decision-making process, Mr David said he understood there to be “considerable risk, but I had to assess those risks against the rewards of the commercial benefits of outsourcing”.
As well as the industrial risks, Mr David said there were concerns about the government response.
“That was a concern in 2020, and it would’ve been a concern in 2021,” Mr David told the court.
“Qantas was one of the main recipients of Jobkeeper, I think in total we got $850m from the government through Jobkeeper. I was very cognisant that us outsourcing 1700 workers in the context of the Jobkeeper scheme was an issue that needed to be managed carefully with the government.”
Although Jobkeeper ended in March 2021, Qantas continued to receive government support to the tune of $800m for its domestic business and $86m for international, said Mr David.
“In 2020, we got the government to a position where they understood we had to make this (outsourcing) decision because of the financial pressures,” he said.
Hearings to determine compensation were set down until Tuesday
The afl is paging a Mr Goyder. A Mr Richard Goyder. He may be a little busy dealing with the latest oversight issue at AFL house.
Some of the language in wilkies statement to parliament yesterday were quite illuminating character references.
I'm guessing some of those mentioned are also members of the chairman’s lounge.
Some of the language in wilkies statement to parliament yesterday were quite illuminating character references.
I'm guessing some of those mentioned are also members of the chairman’s lounge.
No end in sight to engine trouble at Qantas
Crikey has spoken to Qantas engineers about the ongoing issues plaguing the airline.MICHAEL SAINSBURY
MAR 27, 2024
Share
A QANTAS PLANE IN 2020 (IMAGE: AAP/DAVE HUNT)The mid-air engine shutdown that forced a Qantas A330 back to Perth on Monday night after a “loud bang” comes as no surprise to those working on the company’s aircraft, both in the cockpit and on the ground. In fact, sources tell Crikey, it is business as usual with Qantas having engine trouble on a number of fronts.Coming just days ahead of Easter Thursday, the airline’s busiest day of the year, the loss of (one of) the largest aircraft the airline flies domestically will play havoc with flight schedules.
The 21-year-old A330, the oldest plane in the Qantas fleet, is unlikely to be back in the air for at least a week, engineers told Crikey, and that’s if there is a spare engine in the country.
Read MorePictures of the engine, seen by Crikey, show a broken turbine. The incident is so serious the company has had all the data recorders preserved for investigation by the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB), insiders said. The incident follows serious problems (previously unreported in the media) with an engine on another A330 where a piece of metal tubing that was part of the turbine case cooling was found poking out of an engine, pilots involved said.
Qantas’ long-haul B787s and A330s, as well as the red tail fleet’s domestic workhorse B737s, are not being given enough downtime for regular checks and tweaks including on their engines, engineers and pilots said.
“If you don’t give a plane enough downtime, it will eventually do it for you,” one engineer explained.
The B787s, the youngest planes in the Qantas fleet, are having trouble with badly overheating engines resulting in a “couple of turnbacks” in South Africa, pilots said. One of those was due to an engine that had overheated by 40 degrees.It was given a temporary certificate for 10 more flights and was then removed from service completely. Qantas had no spare General Electric engines used by the 787s so it was forced to take one from a Jetstar 787.
This week’s engine failure comes 14 months after another major engine failure, on a B737 from Auckland to Sydney, that was investigated by the ATSB and where voice recorders were “inadvertently” written over.
Sources say the engine problems are the direct result of the chronic underinvestment in aircraft — there is no spare capacity at all — and the company’s engineering workforce and spare parts by former CEO Alan Joyce. The penny-pinching maintenance regime he instituted has been underpinned by the airline’s wholesale outsourcing of core capabilities, designed to boost profits and executive bonuses, which has continued under Joyce’s successor Vanessa Hudson.
The company now undertakes all its frontline heavy maintenance for its international planes offshore in a range of places including Los Angeles, Manila, Singapore and Abu Dhabi. In a bid to trim inventory costs, it keeps few, if any, major parts such as engines in Australia. This is at a time when its planes are ageing and being worked harder than ever, meaning chances of major mechanical and electrical issues are rising — and are taking longer to fix.
This causes the serial delays and cancellations that have plagued the airline since the end of pandemic lockdowns. Fresh data last week showed the airline cancelling one in 20 flights. All the management consulting in the world — Hudson has called in McKinsey to help the planes run on time — can’t create a younger fleet, pull new aircraft out of thin air, or birth experienced
Read MoreThe airline is so short of long-haul aircraft it “wet leased” — using Finnair flight deck and cabin crew — two Finnair A330s now flying Sydney-Singapore/Bangkok routes.
A promised engineers academy will not even begin training people in three year courses until 2025 if it is on time. Qantas is presently plugging the hole in its already ageing engineering workforce by bringing back retirees, many of whom were forced into redundancy by Qantas during the pandemic. These workers are only a short-term solution, engineers said, and reflect a workforce whose average age is about 55.
“We have 15 apprentices. We need double or triple that a year going forward,” an engineer in Sydney said.
Moreover, the company’s dire shortage of long-haul planes just got worse, with regulators demanding fresh checks for wing-crack prone A380s, the world’s largest commercial aircraft. Qantas now has four of these parked in Abu Dhabi (thanks to outsourcing) and the return to service of three will now be delayed.
One is due back next week. One has wing cracks, delaying its return by about six weeks. Another needs a 12-year check and will be parked in Abu Dhabi until late this year. And the last has run out landing gear cycles and needs a new interior. It won’t be back into service until late this year or early next, all of which is very poor planning by Qantas, engineers said.
Qantas did not respond to detailed questions about its aircraft.
The airline has belatedly ordered new B787 and A350 long-range aircraft but the former are not scheduled to arrive until at least late 2026 and the latter until 2032 — timetables that now look doubtful, with manufacturers Boeing and Airbus experiencing heavy demand and warning of delivery delays.
In the meantime the “Flying” Kangaroo will continue to limp along with its ever-ageing fleet and bung engines. The losers, as usual, are the flying public, and Qantas aircraft-related staff.
No end in sight to engine trouble at Qantas
Crikey has spoken to Qantas engineers about the ongoing issues plaguing the airline.MICHAEL SAINSBURY
MAR 27, 2024
Share
A QANTAS PLANE IN 2020 (IMAGE: AAP/DAVE HUNT)The mid-air engine shutdown that forced a Qantas A330 back to Perth on Monday night after a “loud bang” comes as no surprise to those working on the company’s aircraft, both in the cockpit and on the ground. In fact, sources tell Crikey, it is business as usual with Qantas having engine trouble on a number of fronts.Coming just days ahead of Easter Thursday, the airline’s busiest day of the year, the loss of (one of) the largest aircraft the airline flies domestically will play havoc with flight schedules.
The 21-year-old A330, the oldest plane in the Qantas fleet, is unlikely to be back in the air for at least a week, engineers told Crikey, and that’s if there is a spare engine in the country.
Read MorePictures of the engine, seen by Crikey, show a broken turbine. The incident is so serious the company has had all the data recorders preserved for investigation by the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB), insiders said. The incident follows serious problems (previously unreported in the media) with an engine on another A330 where a piece of metal tubing that was part of the turbine case cooling was found poking out of an engine, pilots involved said.
Qantas’ long-haul B787s and A330s, as well as the red tail fleet’s domestic workhorse B737s, are not being given enough downtime for regular checks and tweaks including on their engines, engineers and pilots said.
“If you don’t give a plane enough downtime, it will eventually do it for you,” one engineer explained.
The B787s, the youngest planes in the Qantas fleet, are having trouble with badly overheating engines resulting in a “couple of turnbacks” in South Africa, pilots said. One of those was due to an engine that had overheated by 40 degrees.It was given a temporary certificate for 10 more flights and was then removed from service completely. Qantas had no spare General Electric engines used by the 787s so it was forced to take one from a Jetstar 787.
This week’s engine failure comes 14 months after another major engine failure, on a B737 from Auckland to Sydney, that was investigated by the ATSB and where voice recorders were “inadvertently” written over.
Sources say the engine problems are the direct result of the chronic underinvestment in aircraft — there is no spare capacity at all — and the company’s engineering workforce and spare parts by former CEO Alan Joyce. The penny-pinching maintenance regime he instituted has been underpinned by the airline’s wholesale outsourcing of core capabilities, designed to boost profits and executive bonuses, which has continued under Joyce’s successor Vanessa Hudson.
The company now undertakes all its frontline heavy maintenance for its international planes offshore in a range of places including Los Angeles, Manila, Singapore and Abu Dhabi. In a bid to trim inventory costs, it keeps few, if any, major parts such as engines in Australia. This is at a time when its planes are ageing and being worked harder than ever, meaning chances of major mechanical and electrical issues are rising — and are taking longer to fix.
This causes the serial delays and cancellations that have plagued the airline since the end of pandemic lockdowns. Fresh data last week showed the airline cancelling one in 20 flights. All the management consulting in the world — Hudson has called in McKinsey to help the planes run on time — can’t create a younger fleet, pull new aircraft out of thin air, or birth experienced
Read MoreThe airline is so short of long-haul aircraft it “wet leased” — using Finnair flight deck and cabin crew — two Finnair A330s now flying Sydney-Singapore/Bangkok routes.
A promised engineers academy will not even begin training people in three year courses until 2025 if it is on time. Qantas is presently plugging the hole in its already ageing engineering workforce by bringing back retirees, many of whom were forced into redundancy by Qantas during the pandemic. These workers are only a short-term solution, engineers said, and reflect a workforce whose average age is about 55.
“We have 15 apprentices. We need double or triple that a year going forward,” an engineer in Sydney said.
Moreover, the company’s dire shortage of long-haul planes just got worse, with regulators demanding fresh checks for wing-crack prone A380s, the world’s largest commercial aircraft. Qantas now has four of these parked in Abu Dhabi (thanks to outsourcing) and the return to service of three will now be delayed.
One is due back next week. One has wing cracks, delaying its return by about six weeks. Another needs a 12-year check and will be parked in Abu Dhabi until late this year. And the last has run out landing gear cycles and needs a new interior. It won’t be back into service until late this year or early next, all of which is very poor planning by Qantas, engineers said.
Qantas did not respond to detailed questions about its aircraft.
The airline has belatedly ordered new B787 and A350 long-range aircraft but the former are not scheduled to arrive until at least late 2026 and the latter until 2032 — timetables that now look doubtful, with manufacturers Boeing and Airbus experiencing heavy demand and warning of delivery delays.
In the meantime the “Flying” Kangaroo will continue to limp along with its ever-ageing fleet and bung engines. The losers, as usual, are the flying public, and Qantas aircraft-related staff.
For a start, the A330 with the engine failure the other night didn’t “return” to Perth, Perth was its destination.
Secondly, the order for A350’s (non Sunrise ones) is due to begin in 2027 around the same time as the new 787’s, not 2032
.His articles would hold more weight if they were correct.
the A330 with the engine failure the other night didn’t “return” to Perth, Perth was its destination
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- Firm order for four Boeing 787-9 and eight 787-10 aircraft, with deliveries starting in FY27.
- Firm order for 12 Airbus A350-1000s, with deliveries starting in FY28.
- Purchase right options split between Airbus and Boeing to complete A330 and A380 fleet replacement and provide for growth.
- Both orders include significant flexibility to adjust the timing of deliveries