NJS and the A220
Perhaps the victim role you’re taking after signing a crap deal doesn’t sit right with your “fellow pilots”?
I’m sure mainline guys would love to get A220 crew across from NJS onto the short haul award to both improve conditions for you and also to make their own futures more secure.
But while subsidiary pilots keep signing crap fear-based deals during a global pilot shortage, how exactly do you expect mainline crew to react?
If you want solidarity, you need to be prepared to not undercut other groups/agreements.
I’m sure mainline guys would love to get A220 crew across from NJS onto the short haul award to both improve conditions for you and also to make their own futures more secure.
But while subsidiary pilots keep signing crap fear-based deals during a global pilot shortage, how exactly do you expect mainline crew to react?
If you want solidarity, you need to be prepared to not undercut other groups/agreements.
A bit rich to claim it was the subsidiaries undercutting mainline on that one when it was mainline who reached agreement while NJS were still fighting thiers.
Without knowing the finer points of each eba, I don't know if everyone would consider all elements of the SH agreement to be 'improvements'.
Didn't mainline/SH agree to an eba variation at the same time NJS were negotiating an expired eba with a fleet confirmed as being retired.
A bit rich to claim it was the subsidiaries undercutting mainline on that one when it was mainline who reached agreement while NJS were still fighting thiers.
Without knowing the finer points of each eba, I don't know if everyone would consider all elements of the SH agreement to be 'improvements'.
A bit rich to claim it was the subsidiaries undercutting mainline on that one when it was mainline who reached agreement while NJS were still fighting thiers.
Without knowing the finer points of each eba, I don't know if everyone would consider all elements of the SH agreement to be 'improvements'.
NJS was a new EBA which was signed in. Not only was it a new agreement, it had significant degradation to T&Cs via fatigue/rostering.
Shorthaul was simply an addition of an aircraft type to an existing EBA which still had two years to run. You can’t negotiate a brand new EBA when you’re half way through the old one.
So no, completely different. But if it helps
NJS guys sleep at night, whatevs.
The A220 deal was a monumental FU. Hopefully everyone has learnt from it.
I don’t work for NJS or QF, so I don’t know the finer points either.
NJS was a new EBA which was signed in. Not only was it a new agreement, it had significant degradation to T&Cs via fatigue/rostering.
Shorthaul was simply an addition of an aircraft type to an existing EBA which still had two years to run. You can’t negotiate a brand new EBA when you’re half way through the old one.
So no, completely different. But if it helps
NJS guys sleep at night, whatevs.
The A220 deal was a monumental FU. Hopefully everyone has learnt from it.
NJS was a new EBA which was signed in. Not only was it a new agreement, it had significant degradation to T&Cs via fatigue/rostering.
Shorthaul was simply an addition of an aircraft type to an existing EBA which still had two years to run. You can’t negotiate a brand new EBA when you’re half way through the old one.
So no, completely different. But if it helps
NJS guys sleep at night, whatevs.
The A220 deal was a monumental FU. Hopefully everyone has learnt from it.
NJS didn't have that position, and I doubt thier cause was helped by SH/mainline saying yea sure those SI's are not a problem so we will accept your changes now rather than negotiate at eba time.
Like I said hopefully SH got some huge improvements for that, but I asked that on anothet thread and didn't get a response.
I couldn't care less either way what either group wants, but I do get the impression here there is a tone of 'the subsidiaries are to blame for all our problems' from some quarters.
But while subsidiary pilots keep signing crap fear-based deals during a global pilot shortage, how exactly do you expect mainline crew to react?
The other consideration is that if Subsidiary pilots ask for Mainline pay then the work will just be moved back to mainline and the company saves on all the cost of an AOC and management. They really are stuck between a rock and a hard place. The best thing to happen is that the companies totally screwup the labour market for pilots in this country so that literally there is noone and noone is learning to fly because it is uneconomical leaving them with a giant experience gap they can't fix before their next bonus round.
The following users liked this post:
…and then would have to hire more pilots, achieving an overall win for everyone.
The following users liked this post:
I do get the impression here there is a tone of 'the subsidiaries are to blame for all our problems' from some quarters.
Didn't mainline/SH agree to an eba variation at the same time NJS were negotiating an expired eba with a fleet confirmed as being retired.
A bit rich to claim it was the subsidiaries undercutting mainline on that one when it was mainline who reached agreement while NJS were still fighting thiers.
A bit rich to claim it was the subsidiaries undercutting mainline on that one when it was mainline who reached agreement while NJS were still fighting thiers.
Mainline pilots don't negotiate with the threat of all being fired though. Subsidiary pilots all have the threat of their jobs being moved to the next cheapest operator. Network, Alliance, Eastern ,Sunstate, Jetconnect etc etc
When was the last time NAA had their routes given to another operator?
Mainline pilot's didn't negotiate with the threat of being fired but let's not forget that between early 2009 to late 2016, QF Mainline hired zero, yes zero pilots. None. Progression was almost non-existent. Command upgrades even today with all the movement are just on 19 years which is sadly considered "getting better".
JQ's expansion onto routes that mainline pilots were told would never be flown by JQ, and then given a dozen or so 787s which were originally planneed for QF killed any and all progression at QF. Then you throw in another decade on top of that of seeing NJS/NAA taking RPT routes and the slow erosion of SH, and now LH it seems.
The last 15 years has seen nothing but the subsidiaries expand as mainline shrinks. How many 747s and 767s have been retired in the last 15 years? Throw in 2x a380s and 2x a330s, and add on the 14x 787s (which have trickled in over not even a decade), and whatever 737s/a330s have trickled in about 10 years ago, and whats the net loss at QF? Someone here surely has the figures of QF fleet size in 2005, 2010 versus now. A word of mouth promise that 75 737s will be replaced with maybe 40 a321XLRs and five minutes later management literally begins gloating to QF pilots in a webinar how the a220 is the future. Empty promises that for example Network will only get a couple of airbuses. Direct threats that if they don't sign EBA10 that the A350s will go to a new entity.
Yeah, maybe not a direct threat of being fired, but most there only a decade ago were faced with actual threats of redundancy and were forced to take LWOP (and I'm not talking about covid).
Do I need to post that graph of mainline's shrinking fleet over the last 15 years and how the subsids have continued to grow?
On the East coast it seems to ebb and flow between mainline, njs, alliance and qlink.
The only thing is they dont hang thier hat on any particular flying being 'thiers'. Thats a uniquely mainline trait.
Didn't mainline/SH agree to an eba variation at the same time NJS were negotiating an expired eba with a fleet confirmed as being retired.
A bit rich to claim it was the subsidiaries undercutting mainline on that one when it was mainline who reached agreement while NJS were still fighting thiers.
A bit rich to claim it was the subsidiaries undercutting mainline on that one when it was mainline who reached agreement while NJS were still fighting thiers.
GFC era god knows how many took LWOP and went overseas etc. That's still fresh in the minds of any pre-2016 hire.
Things are now looking good by QF standards. Dreamliners, be it only a dozen or so, are trickeling in.
Project Sunrise is announced. The direct flights like PER LHR seem to be very good money makers.
EBA 10 is up for negotiation. No negotiation. It's an ultimatum and the International CEO literally says to them, "Guys, I can't make this any clearer. If you vote no then we will give the a350s to a new entity", all while everyone in oz is aware pilots are leaving daily from Hong Kong and potentially would jump at this new subsidiary offer to crew a350s and live in Australia again.
Fast forward another two years.
You've just been stood down the entire time, or if "lucky", you've just spent weeks if not months in constant isolation in Howard Springs or some east coast hotel or at home if lucky. The chinese flu has ****** everyone, and while most of your colleagues have been working at bunnings or contemplating life away from their familys trying to manage depression in hotel quarantine, the subsidiaries have been flying pretty much with very little to nil stand downs the entire pandemic.
Now they present to you the variation to the SH award for the a321 XLR. More strategic imperatives. This time however, no direct words from management that they'll give the jets to another entity, but when quizzed on this, they would not say they wouldn't consider it if the piltos voted no on the a321 deal.
Do you secure the planes and agree to this variation or fight it, after all the **** that's gone down the last 3 years, all while watching the subsids continue to fly through the pandemic?
I'll wait for your reply, Lapon.
A global pandemic starting and people knew international borders would close for 2-5 years and you think they would have risked voting no?
What were they meant to do?
they did the same thing NJS pilots did with the 220.
I distinctly remember receiving photos in an email from the QF Friday weekly news thing they send us all, of NJS management cutting cakes mid pandemic while I was stood down unpaid. Why were they cutting cakes? Because they were being awarded new routes on the 717 which were previously 737 routes.
Who else would have taken the a220s off them? It wouldn't have been mainline back then as they're clearly too expensive.
Very unlikely it would be NAA as they're over on the west coast and an unorganised mess struggling with their own ops.
What specifically was the threat they faced?
Yeah, they did the same thing.
Were NJS pilots stood down much, if at all, during covid?
I distinctly remember receiving photos in an email from the QF Friday weekly news thing they send us all, of NJS management cutting cakes mid pandemic while I was stood down unpaid. Why were they cutting cakes? Because they were being awarded new routes on the 717 which were previously 737 routes.
Who else would have taken the a220s off them? It wouldn't have been mainline back then as they're clearly too expensive.
Very unlikely it would be NAA as they're over on the west coast and an unorganised mess struggling with their own ops.
What specifically was the threat they faced?
Yeah, they did the same thing.
I distinctly remember receiving photos in an email from the QF Friday weekly news thing they send us all, of NJS management cutting cakes mid pandemic while I was stood down unpaid. Why were they cutting cakes? Because they were being awarded new routes on the 717 which were previously 737 routes.
Who else would have taken the a220s off them? It wouldn't have been mainline back then as they're clearly too expensive.
Very unlikely it would be NAA as they're over on the west coast and an unorganised mess struggling with their own ops.
What specifically was the threat they faced?
Yeah, they did the same thing.
However, there were significant standdowns imposed on various NJS bases (again not as harsh as what would of been imposed on international crews, I am not trying to imply this was the case). There was only one NJS base that wasn't stood down which was Perth due to the intrastate mining routes they served (I believe they were subjected to forced annual leave at one point but obviously not the same as being stood down). Every other NJS base (BNE, CNS, CBR, HBA & SYD) were subjected to various lengths of stand downsin 2020 (I believe but could be corrected that HBA had the longest standdown of the NJS bases of about 9 months). Afterwards PER, despite never being stood down was subjected to a base closure along with CNS. After said closures and transfers another round of standdowns occured again during 2021.
During the NJS EBA "negotiations" a direct threat was made to the NJS pilots that if a no vote occurred that the A220 would be given to another operator and the NJS pilot group would be made redundant with the retirement of the 717. It was implied that the operator would most likely then be Network.
Even if one doubts that Network or other entity had the ability to take on the A220 flying many did not doubt that Qantas IR wouldn't pass up the opportunity to make an example of an employee group at the time.
The following 2 users liked this post by Check_Thrust:
Join Date: Apr 2023
Location: Australia
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airlink (NJS) was formed as a subsidiary of Australian (TAA) in 1989. QF took over Australian and absorbed it into mainline so in reality NJS was to Australian then what they are to QF now.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 465
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All you grumpy old fools pointing fingers at each other, when the real threat to anyone employed within the Qantas group is all the outsourcing to Alliance and their e190s.