Australian Airline Pilot: Respected Profession or 'Noose around your Neck'
Whooo boys and girls, my statement was how the extra two weeks for aircrew was introduced originallyNo bubble to burst, I merely put forward what came about in my 145 octane (Performance Number actually since there is no such thing as an octane rating above 100) burning days. You boys and girls can sure read into a statement something that was never implied.At my age I don't do woke, I identify folk as they exited the womb, the other identities are add ons.
Reported.
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I think what this thread shows is that most don't understand that once an EBA is above Award everything is just an "agreement". The Union or Employer puts together what they think the pilots want, put it to vote, and you either agree or disagree, you duke it out over the finer points and shake hands, at pilot level of pay there is very little right or wrong, it's just what you agree to. Anything that is in continual disagreement will have to be reconciled to allow agreement, the last resort being PIA or just leaving for greener pastures, even then there is no law saying that with every negotiation the EBA must improve, or has to meet CPI (unless you are going to be below relative Award for the industry). The extra 2 weeks leave was added to many EBA as part o the compensation for shift work/working public holidays, that was when agreements were moving out of the dark ages. You do not always have to trade something, that is productivity or such for increased income, you can just claim it as necessary to maintain or even improve workforce desired lifestyle. That does not mean that an extra 2 weeks leave is still worth what it was worth back then, however that is probably how your employer will look at that clause.
The only time you have to justify the increases is if it went to arbitration after an impasse and each side has to justify it's position. Trying to justify claims to the boss is a waste of time, they will always look for the minimum they can get away with, mostly they only ask for the claims justified as stalling tactics to draw out negotiations. Presently the main concern for the workers side is that you are not made worse off by the new EBA and things to be considered will be offsets for days off/public holidays, work specific complications and dangers etc etc... Now worse off compared to what is where the outcome could be good or bad, as that becomes what is the industrial flavor of the day and what the judge/panel orientation is. So just pushing PIA until it gets to the point of government intervention will probably not end well.
None of that stops the employer from outright rejecting an EBA and offering anything it wants and dealing with the pathetic comebacks the workers have, like non disruptive PIA. AJ proved what an employer can do if they really want to, that was against some very mild PIA, and the QF pilot body showed it didn't have much to kick back with.
The best recourse to deal with miserly employers is to just pack up and leave... nothing can stop you from doing that, and if the company can not replace you then they can't blame anyone but themselves. Remember anything you do to 'cost' a company more than doing your normal job would be considered unprotected industrial action, and the company could seek to reclaim lost income from individuals, so be very careful about being too militant without union support.
The only time you have to justify the increases is if it went to arbitration after an impasse and each side has to justify it's position. Trying to justify claims to the boss is a waste of time, they will always look for the minimum they can get away with, mostly they only ask for the claims justified as stalling tactics to draw out negotiations. Presently the main concern for the workers side is that you are not made worse off by the new EBA and things to be considered will be offsets for days off/public holidays, work specific complications and dangers etc etc... Now worse off compared to what is where the outcome could be good or bad, as that becomes what is the industrial flavor of the day and what the judge/panel orientation is. So just pushing PIA until it gets to the point of government intervention will probably not end well.
None of that stops the employer from outright rejecting an EBA and offering anything it wants and dealing with the pathetic comebacks the workers have, like non disruptive PIA. AJ proved what an employer can do if they really want to, that was against some very mild PIA, and the QF pilot body showed it didn't have much to kick back with.
The best recourse to deal with miserly employers is to just pack up and leave... nothing can stop you from doing that, and if the company can not replace you then they can't blame anyone but themselves. Remember anything you do to 'cost' a company more than doing your normal job would be considered unprotected industrial action, and the company could seek to reclaim lost income from individuals, so be very careful about being too militant without union support.
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Reported? To whom and for what?
Play the ball, not the man (or ‘person’ - if you are one of those who would bastardise our great language). Man being short for mankind, aka human, which covers everyone, including that poisonous Pommy teacher who berated a 13 year old girl who dared argue that, at birth, there were only two genders. This teacher told her class that a person could identify as a cat, if they so desired, and apparently that made them a cat. Seriously….
Now where were we? Oh yes, pilot working conditions.
Play the ball, not the man (or ‘person’ - if you are one of those who would bastardise our great language). Man being short for mankind, aka human, which covers everyone, including that poisonous Pommy teacher who berated a 13 year old girl who dared argue that, at birth, there were only two genders. This teacher told her class that a person could identify as a cat, if they so desired, and apparently that made them a cat. Seriously….
Now where were we? Oh yes, pilot working conditions.
Boomers.
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Soseg thinks that Megan is a woman / female / non-male / whatever.
You are guilty of thought-crime and have been reported to The Supreme Entity.
You are guilty of thought-crime and have been reported to The Supreme Entity.
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Offshore oil and gas workers have secured a sector-leading pay rise of 8.6 per cent after threatening industrial action against a key labour hire firm.
The Offshore Alliance, a team-up of the Australian Workers Union and Maritime Union of Australia, revealed on Monday it had reached an in-principle deal with Rigforce that guarantees about 60 drill workers a 15.6 per cent pay rise over two years, made up of 8.6 per cent this year and 7 per cent next year.
Can’t see any pilots in Australia winning pay rises like this.
The Offshore Alliance, a team-up of the Australian Workers Union and Maritime Union of Australia, revealed on Monday it had reached an in-principle deal with Rigforce that guarantees about 60 drill workers a 15.6 per cent pay rise over two years, made up of 8.6 per cent this year and 7 per cent next year.
Can’t see any pilots in Australia winning pay rises like this.
Offshore oil and gas workers have secured a sector-leading pay rise of 8.6 per cent after threatening industrial action against a key labour hire firm.
The Offshore Alliance, a team-up of the Australian Workers Union and Maritime Union of Australia, revealed on Monday it had reached an in-principle deal with Rigforce that guarantees about 60 drill workers a 15.6 per cent pay rise over two years, made up of 8.6 per cent this year and 7 per cent next year.
Can’t see any pilots in Australia winning pay rises like this.
The Offshore Alliance, a team-up of the Australian Workers Union and Maritime Union of Australia, revealed on Monday it had reached an in-principle deal with Rigforce that guarantees about 60 drill workers a 15.6 per cent pay rise over two years, made up of 8.6 per cent this year and 7 per cent next year.
Can’t see any pilots in Australia winning pay rises like this.
It would go a long way to explaining the pay rise.
Pilots shouldn't be negotiating on their own behalf. History (in Australia & most of the world) has shown it limits gains.
Just an observation.
The question that should now be asked is, are the heads of the AWU & MUA rig drillers. Probably not. Maybe they've got professional negotiators doing the negotiating.
It would go a long way to explaining the pay rise.
Pilots shouldn't be negotiating on their own behalf. History (in Australia & most of the world) has shown it limits gains.
Just an observation.
It would go a long way to explaining the pay rise.
Pilots shouldn't be negotiating on their own behalf. History (in Australia & most of the world) has shown it limits gains.
Just an observation.
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The question that should now be asked is, are the heads of the AWU & MUA rig drillers. Probably not. Maybe they've got professional negotiators doing the negotiating.
It would go a long way to explaining the pay rise.
Pilots shouldn't be negotiating on their own behalf. History (in Australia & most of the world) has shown it limits gains.
Just an observation.
It would go a long way to explaining the pay rise.
Pilots shouldn't be negotiating on their own behalf. History (in Australia & most of the world) has shown it limits gains.
Just an observation.
Wages in the USA can't be reasonably compared to Australia. USA has 300 Million +, Australia as 26 Million. No real comparison in my opinion. USA has a much larger customer base.
Different pilot mindset.
Pilots in the USA make no secret of their willingness to go on strike even when there's no negotiations taking place (although they do have similar rules around preventing wildcat strikes like Aus have).
The reality is, it doesn't matter how successful US pilots have been at their negotiations, Australian plots have been appallingly bad and many decades of EBA's have proven as such.
Australian pilots unions (or associations as they are better known as) need to put ego aside and get professional negotiators.
I'm sure no Australian working in the USA would over inflate there pay packet by including overtime and allowances........
That’s funny! Since the demise of Ansett, it’s been embarrassed Aussie pilots fattening up their annual salaries by quoting compulsory super contributions and per diem.
Airline pilot wages can be a complicated assessment to undertake. For instance, when I was an Ansett pilot for near a decade, OT was virtually guaranteed and never was there a month I didn’t surge beyond 55 hours where it kicked in. It was fair to say I was paid 130K a year in the 90’s. Not including Super and Per Diem. The States will have reasonable assumptions too and granted, cargo pilots quoting wages during COVID may require a bit of scrutiny if coming Stateside.
Cost of living is now so high in Australia ( housing especially ) I just don’t know what to make of wage assessment. It’s grim. Pilots I’ve met since repatriation are not leading enviable, Aussie lifestyles unless well established at the likes of QF. Explaining investment strategies to defeat inflation and corporates inevitably eroding your wage isn’t a courteous flight deck topic in Australia- many pilots have no money. Living pay to pay, I get the vulnerability and coupled with horrendous industrial legislation, I also understand the status of Aussie pilots being industrial eunuchs.
Airline pilot wages can be a complicated assessment to undertake. For instance, when I was an Ansett pilot for near a decade, OT was virtually guaranteed and never was there a month I didn’t surge beyond 55 hours where it kicked in. It was fair to say I was paid 130K a year in the 90’s. Not including Super and Per Diem. The States will have reasonable assumptions too and granted, cargo pilots quoting wages during COVID may require a bit of scrutiny if coming Stateside.
Cost of living is now so high in Australia ( housing especially ) I just don’t know what to make of wage assessment. It’s grim. Pilots I’ve met since repatriation are not leading enviable, Aussie lifestyles unless well established at the likes of QF. Explaining investment strategies to defeat inflation and corporates inevitably eroding your wage isn’t a courteous flight deck topic in Australia- many pilots have no money. Living pay to pay, I get the vulnerability and coupled with horrendous industrial legislation, I also understand the status of Aussie pilots being industrial eunuchs.
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The other consideration re:wages is how much of those wages that people brag about are based on minimum guarantee and how much includes overtime (which in the USA is gained by working days off, and that assumes you have the seniority to get those flights if/when they become available) and how much includes allowances.
I'm sure no Australian working in the USA would over inflate there pay packet by including overtime and allowances........
I'm sure no Australian working in the USA would over inflate there pay packet by including overtime and allowances........
United ALPA reached an agreement yesterday which, if it gets up (likely will), will see a 2nd year 737 CA on about $315K USD base. That excludes 17% 401(k) & per diems (meal allowances).
Australian airlines are a long way behind. Glad I left. Lucky I had the opportunity to do so.
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Different IR rules.
Wages in the USA can't be reasonably compared to Australia. USA has 300 Million +, Australia as 26 Million. No real comparison in my opinion. USA has a much larger customer base.
Different pilot mindset.
Pilots in the USA make no secret of their willingness to go on strike even when there's no negotiations taking place (although they do have similar rules around preventing wildcat strikes like Aus have).
The reality is, it doesn't matter how successful US pilots have been at their negotiations, Australian plots have been appallingly bad and many decades of EBA's have proven as such.
Australian pilots unions (or associations as they are better known as) need to put ego aside and get professional negotiators.
Wages in the USA can't be reasonably compared to Australia. USA has 300 Million +, Australia as 26 Million. No real comparison in my opinion. USA has a much larger customer base.
Different pilot mindset.
Pilots in the USA make no secret of their willingness to go on strike even when there's no negotiations taking place (although they do have similar rules around preventing wildcat strikes like Aus have).
The reality is, it doesn't matter how successful US pilots have been at their negotiations, Australian plots have been appallingly bad and many decades of EBA's have proven as such.
Australian pilots unions (or associations as they are better known as) need to put ego aside and get professional negotiators.
You want real change in Australia, get under one banner and have an industry representative body, not an airline representative, especially ones that are pretty much run by the airline itself. Ever since '89 its been clear that having separate unions has not helped anyone achieve anything of real substance. Whats clear now is that the whole aviation industry is paying for the industrial relations mess that is happening here, lack of staff, lack of experience, lack of motivation. So even the companies are paying for not having strong pilot unions to ensure the positions remain filled by competent employees.... Whilst pilots might be up among the most respected jobs, they now work for companies who rate as the most unreliable and for bosses with reputations worse than lawyers and politicians (most are from those backgrounds, so figures). I don't think any airline pilot in Australia will walk away after a career the last 40 years and say "gee, that boss was a good bloke and did right by us". I think the general consensus now is they are all "just a bunch of rich wankers out for themselves and ruined my workplace".
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United CEO yesterday: "We promised our world-class pilots the industry-leading contract they deserve, and we’re pleased to have reached an agreement with ALPA on it. The four-year agreement, once ratified, will deliver a meaningful pay raise and quality of life improvements for our pilots while putting the airline on track to achieve the incredible potential of our United Next strategy."
Imagine seeing an Australian airline CEO say that....They'd rather sh^t in their hands and clap!
Imagine seeing an Australian airline CEO say that....They'd rather sh^t in their hands and clap!
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United CEO yesterday: "We promised our world-class pilots the industry-leading contract they deserve, and we’re pleased to have reached an agreement with ALPA on it. The four-year agreement, once ratified, will deliver a meaningful pay raise and quality of life improvements for our pilots while putting the airline on track to achieve the incredible potential of our United Next strategy."
Imagine seeing an Australian airline CEO say that....They'd rather sh^t in their hands and clap!
Imagine seeing an Australian airline CEO say that....They'd rather sh^t in their hands and clap!
To Australian airline CEOs pilots are over paid and underworked.They are an evil that costs to much and who cares if they leave we will just get another mug to replace them.