Australian Airline Pilot: Respected Profession or 'Noose around your Neck'

[theheadmaster]

Originally Posted by JPJP

Interesting metric. Safe to assume that there aren’t any first year 787 first officers and zero fourth year 787 Captains at Qantas ? For the sake of the argument let’s assume 12- 15 years to 787 FO and 25 - 30 years for 787 CA. .

Pay scales are calculated differently for 787 vs other types in the Long Haul Agreement. With some exceptions, when you check out on type, in rank, you start at year 1 pay rate and move up one pay scale each year, topping out at the 4 year rate. This is similar to pay scales in Short Haul. For other Long Haul types, pay scales are based on years of service as a pilot 1-12.

[dragon man]

Originally Posted by theheadmaster

Pay scales are calculated differently for 787 vs other types in the Long Haul Agreement. With some exceptions, when you check out on type, in rank, you start at year 1 pay rate and move up one pay scale each year, topping out at the 4 year rate. This is similar to pay scales in Short Haul. For other Long Haul types, pay scales are based on years of service as a pilot 1-12.

The reason being that by going back to year 1 again you are effectively paying the cost for your change of type.

[theheadmaster]

Originally Posted by dragon man

The reason being that by going back to year 1 again you are effectively paying the cost for your change of type.

I assume you are not a Qantas Mainline pilot and you are not familiar with the respective Agreements. Without seeing the rates etc, you might think that going from a 1-12 year pay scale to a 1-4 would be going backwards, but it is not.

When changing types Long Haul to Long Haul, there is a series of calculations specified in the Agreement, and you get paid the higher of those calculations. The backup position is that you get paid no worse than your (old type) hourly rate multiplied by the bid period divisor. Short Haul to Long Haul you get the average divisor of previous 6 months paid at your Short Haul hourly rate. So, no, you are not 'paying' for the type transfer this way.

The pay calculation for the 787 has a different section in the Agreement and is not calculated like the A330 or A380. During negotiations for the introduction of the 787, Qantas wanted to meet a specific crewing cost (sound familiar?), particularly at introduction. All Captains and most FOs would not get a position on the 787 with less than 12 years service (Long Haul pay scales are from year 1 to 12 years of total service as a pilot, not in rank). A way to improve the pay position for pilots was to introduce a new pay scale that started at year 1 in rank on type and went to year 4. So, if a pilot now in Mainline gets an A330 command, they probably have well over 20 years of service and will be on the A330 year 12 rate on checkout. A pilot going to the 787 will start at year 1 regardless of previous service (except if RINed etc).

Year 12 hourly rate for A330 Captain is $342.87
Year 1 hourly rate for 787 Captain is $380.03
Year 4 hourly rate for 787 Captain is $409.26

Of course, minimum guarantee, overtime and night credits are calculated differently, so you can't do a straight comparison based on hourly rate alone. Suffice to say, pilots are bidding off the A330 to go to the 787 (and not paying for the conversion with their hourly rate increment).

[RealSatoshi]

Originally Posted by soseg

SH expires 31st of this month.

From another thread, but a good segway to point out what is absolutely wrong with this entire system...

6 Days to go before the QF SH EBA expires, yet no negotiations and no proposal on the table yet...wait WHAT?

An EBA is a contract between two parties - employer and employee - this for the provision of certain services via a specified skillset and to be compensated at a specified rate up to a specified date. One would think that in a First World country, we could negotiate and sign-off a *new* contract (read agreement) before the old one expires

But wait, we can...If you have tenants, you must give them on average a minimum of 60 Days notice before you can increase the rent and/or give them two months notice if you want them to vacate at the end of their contract (or something of that sorts). But yet, knowing very well and 4 yours in advance when an EBA will expire, we do not have the situational awareness to get this done before EBA expiry - no wonder corporate Australia is wiping the floors with us.

Is it all that difficult - No it is Not, but requires a change in the way we think and operate...and who knows, we might just earn some respect for being conscientious and predictable in our actions:

• 6 Months before EBA Expiry: First negotiation meeting must be held
• 1 Month before EBA Expiry: Final feedback to Members with the option to vote for PIA (if required)
• 2 Weeks before EBA Expiry: PIA approval from FWC
• 1st Day after EBA Expiry: New EBA rate implemented or PIA initiated

This will remove a number of the known levers that companies are pulling during protracted EBA negotiations, months or even years after the previous one had expired:

• "Sign now or loose your 11 Months backpay due..."
• While you lot 'negotiate', the company will continue pocketing 5% interest on all the monies owed to you, this with no intention of paying back the interest portion - Drinks in the Chairman's Lounge anyone?

Have you ever renewed your mobile plan and then used it for six months before ringing them up and advising them how much you are actually prepared to pay for the new plan...so why are you allowing your employer to do this with you...?

To Get Better - We Must Do Better

[smiffysarmy]

You have to remember that Qantas IR runs AIPA so there are no surprises here as to why nothing has happened regarding negotiations.

[Beer Baron]

Originally Posted by smiffysarmy

You have to remember that Qantas IR runs AIPA so there are no surprises here as to why nothing has happened regarding negotiations.

Wow Smiffy, brand new account, 3 posts and all 3 spouting anti-AIPA bullsh1t. Are you on retainer from AFAP? How are their SH negotiations going then?

[theheadmaster]

Originally Posted by RealSatoshi

From another thread, but a good segway to point out what is absolutely wrong with this entire system...

6 Days to go before the QF SH EBA expires, yet no negotiations and no proposal on the table yet...wait WHAT?

An EBA is a contract between two parties - employer and employee - this for the provision of certain services via a specified skillset and to be compensated at a specified rate up to a specified date. One would think that in a First World country, we could negotiate and sign-off a *new* contract (read agreement) before the old one expires

But wait, we can...If you have tenants, you must give them on average a minimum of 60 Days notice before you can increase the rent and/or give them two months notice if you want them to vacate at the end of their contract (or something of that sorts). But yet, knowing very well and 4 yours in advance when an EBA will expire, we do not have the situational awareness to get this done before EBA expiry - no wonder corporate Australia is wiping the floors with us.

Is it all that difficult - No it is Not, but requires a change in the way we think and operate...and who knows, we might just earn some respect for being conscientious and predictable in our actions:

• 6 Months before EBA Expiry: First negotiation meeting must be held
• 1 Month before EBA Expiry: Final feedback to Members with the option to vote for PIA (if required)
• 2 Weeks before EBA Expiry: PIA approval from FWC
• 1st Day after EBA Expiry: New EBA rate implemented or PIA initiated

This will remove a number of the known levers that companies are pulling during protracted EBA negotiations, months or even years after the previous one had expired:

• "Sign now or loose your 11 Months backpay due..."
• While you lot 'negotiate', the company will continue pocketing 5% interest on all the monies owed to you, this with no intention of paying back the interest portion - Drinks in the Chairman's Lounge anyone?

Have you ever renewed your mobile plan and then used it for six months before ringing them up and advising them how much you are actually prepared to pay for the new plan...so why are you allowing your employer to do this with you...?

To Get Better - We Must Do Better

I appreciate your passion and enthusiasm, but unfortunately, most of what you have posted is unenforceable or in breach of the Act.

[soseg]

Originally Posted by RealSatoshi

6 Days to go before the QF SH EBA expires, yet no negotiations and no proposal on the table yet...wait WHAT?

Someone correct me on what I am about to say if it's incorrect as it's purely word of mouth from what someone else has told me which is... generally in the past the union would go the QF to begin negotiations and the company would always stall and drag things out as long as possible.
Any truth to this?

Anyway. Right now the optimist inside me would like to think that a delay to the SH EBA negotiation works in the pilot's favour. Wait until AJ is gone and maybe, just maybe there might be a shift in IR's mindset with the new CEO.

We can dream.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Originally Posted by soseg

Someone correct me on what I am about to say if it's incorrect as it's purely word of mouth from what someone else has told me which is...

If that isn't a textbook example of what this site is all about, then I don't know what is.

[RealSatoshi]

Originally Posted by theheadmaster

I appreciate your passion and enthusiasm, but unfortunately, most of what you have posted is unenforceable or in breach of the Act.

Nothing is impossible if there is a Will and Drive to change - The first internal combustion engine automobile, The Benz Patent-Motorwagen, was built in 1885 and for a good part of the next 123 years all and sundry believed that it was the only way to go, until it was not.

Is it unenforceable or against the Act to have, as a condition of the EBA, a paragraph stating that all parties agree that renewal negotiations will commence at EBA Expiry Minus 6 Months and to be concluded by EBA Expiry Plus 0 Days?

[Lapon]

Originally Posted by RealSatoshi

Is it unenforceable or against the Act to have, as a condition of the EBA, a paragraph stating that all parties agree that renewal negotiations will commence at EBA Expiry Minus 6 Months and to be concluded by EBA Expiry Plus 0 Days?

This is entirely possible. (Unsure about the 'must be concluded' part however)

[Lead Balloon]

That’s what’s call a mere agreement to agree and, therefore, is unenforceable. If negotiations are not concluded by the expiry of a current EBA including that clause, who is in breach?

[MickG0105]

Originally Posted by RealSatoshi

Is it unenforceable or against the Act to have, as a condition of the EBA, a paragraph stating that all parties agree that renewal negotiations will commence at EBA Expiry Minus 6 Months and to be concluded by EBA Expiry Plus 0 Days?

As Lead Balloon has pointed out agreements to agree at a future date sit somewhere between unenforceable and entirely impractical. Anyone with even a passing understanding of contract law would understand this.

Originally Posted by RealSatoshi

• 2 Weeks before EBA Expiry: PIA approval from FWC
• 1st Day after EBA Expiry: New EBA rate implemented or PIA initiated

That stuff is contrary to, or inconsistent with the mechanisms of the Act.

[RealSatoshi]

Originally Posted by Lapon

This is entirely possible.

Step 1 determined = Progress

Originally Posted by Lapon

(Unsure about the 'must be concluded' part however)

The 'Must Be Concluded' part could be a mere Statement of Intent to indicate to the company that if, after 6 Months of sitting around the table, if no agreement has been reached the chances of it being resolved in the near future has been significantly diminished and therefore this becomes a trigger point at which further actions will be considered - It is a proverbial line in the sand.

If for example, Sunstate Airlines could get to a PIA vote with at best only a couple of weeks at the table, then surely a Statement of Intent that speaks to the expectations of the process could not simply be brushed off as merely impossible...In 2023 we can't just blindly accept these outdated Shipyard tactics.



Next time you take a flight, try telling QF you'll pay six months after the fact...and that you'll decide then how much the flight was worth to you

[Lapon]

Originally Posted by RealSatoshi

Step 1 determined = Progress


The 'Must Be Concluded' part could be a mere Statement of Intent to indicate to the company that if, after 6 Months of sitting around the table, if no agreement has been reached the chances of it being resolved in the near future has been significantly diminished and therefore this becomes a trigger point at which further actions will be considered - It is a proverbial line in the sand.

If for example, Sunstate Airlines could get to a PIA vote with at best only a couple of weeks at the table, then surely a Statement of Intent that speaks to the expectations of the process could not simply be brushed off as merely impossible...In 2023 we can't just blindly accept these outdated Shipyard tactics.



Next time you take a flight, try telling QF you'll pay six months after the fact...and that you'll decide then how much the flight was worth to you

I'd say the most effective method to cover the 'must be concluded by' clause could be a 'on expiry all payment scales shall be increased annually by cpi+x'.

I think Air North did/do have that clause, and I think it was NJS (or one of the QF subsidiaries) that has/had the start negotiations prior to expiry clause at some point.

[Lead Balloon]

That’s a much better idea.

Promises to negotiate in good faith are enforceable - and you can spend a few years and corresponding costs arguing that someone didn’t negotiate in good faith. But it still ain’t a binding agreement to conclude those negotiations by a specific time or event. Parties can negotiate in good faith and still not reach agreement.

[MickG0105]

Anyone familiar with contract law knows the three decisions relevant to the concept of agreeing to consult or negotiate:

• Coal Cliff Collieries v Sijehama Pty Ltd (1991) 24 NSWLR 1,
• Macquarie International Health Clinic Pty Ltd v Sydney South West Area Health Service [2010] NSWCA 268, and
• United Group Rail Services Limited v Rail Corporation [2009] NSWSCA 177.

None of them relate to agreeing to reach or conclude an agreement, that is simply not enforceable, and no amount of handwaving or "anything is possible if you put your mind to it" pie-in-the-sky thinking will change that.

More specifically with regards to EBAs, the pre-requisites and process for getting to PIA are well documented in the Act. "Statements of Intent" aren't contemplated under the Act. Again, handwaving is not going to change that.

I don't know how much attention the various union negotiating teams pay to pprune.org, but the contact details for each of the relevant unions shouldn't be too hard to find. Be sure to let us know what sort of response you get from them.

[theheadmaster]

Originally Posted by RealSatoshi

From another thread, but a good segway to point out what is absolutely wrong with this entire system...

6 Days to go before the QF SH EBA expires, yet no negotiations and no proposal on the table yet...wait WHAT?

An EBA is a contract between two parties - employer and employee - this for the provision of certain services via a specified skillset and to be compensated at a specified rate up to a specified date. One would think that in a First World country, we could negotiate and sign-off a *new* contract (read agreement) before the old one expires

But wait, we can...If you have tenants, you must give them on average a minimum of 60 Days notice before you can increase the rent and/or give them two months notice if you want them to vacate at the end of their contract (or something of that sorts). But yet, knowing very well and 4 yours in advance when an EBA will expire, we do not have the situational awareness to get this done before EBA expiry - no wonder corporate Australia is wiping the floors with us.

Is it all that difficult - No it is Not, but requires a change in the way we think and operate...and who knows, we might just earn some respect for being conscientious and predictable in our actions:

• 6 Months before EBA Expiry: First negotiation meeting must be held
• 1 Month before EBA Expiry: Final feedback to Members with the option to vote for PIA (if required)
• 2 Weeks before EBA Expiry: PIA approval from FWC
• 1st Day after EBA Expiry: New EBA rate implemented or PIA initiated

This will remove a number of the known levers that companies are pulling during protracted EBA negotiations, months or even years after the previous one had expired:

• "Sign now or loose your 11 Months backpay due..."
• While you lot 'negotiate', the company will continue pocketing 5% interest on all the monies owed to you, this with no intention of paying back the interest portion - Drinks in the Chairman's Lounge anyone?

Have you ever renewed your mobile plan and then used it for six months before ringing them up and advising them how much you are actually prepared to pay for the new plan...so why are you allowing your employer to do this with you...?

To Get Better - We Must Do Better

An EBA is not a contract between the employer and the employee. The terms 'contract', 'agreement' and 'award' are related, but not the same.

Tenancy agreements are covered by their own separate legislation.

The timelines for when bargaining must start are stated in the Fair Work Act. For the process to begin before the expiry date, the employer must initiate bargaining. Employees can only begin the process after the expiry date.

Protected industrial action - PIA. The important term here is 'protected'. The 'protection' is that you are immune from civil liability. You get this protection because the Act says you get it. You only get the protection if you comply with the requirements of the Act. The Act says that you cannot take protected action until bargaining fails and the agreement is out of date. If you were to take the industrial action as you describe, it would be unprotected, illegal and you could be sued for damages.

[Mr Mossberg]

I'm not a smart man, but is it illegal to insert in an EBA:

'At the expiry of an EBA, whatever the length of the negotiation, once percentage rises have been agreed upon, these payrises MUST be backdated to the expiry date of the previous agreement"

?

[Fonz121]

'At the expiry of an EBA, whatever the length of the negotiation, once percentage rises have been agreed upon, these payrises MUST be backdated to the expiry date of the previous agreement"

Yeah I’ve always thought this should be a basic legal given, but apparently not.