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Bonza has its AOC

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Old 8th Nov 2023, 07:24
  #581 (permalink)  
 
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I am fairly sure you can under a FATAOC. Is a few ACMI operators that have been given approval to operate domestic flights, for tour groups or whoever, but nobody seems to exercise the privilege.

As the AirAsia boss is famous for saying, anyone who comes here to start up airline is on drugs. Tiger was heavily drugged up, Bonza is probably on something also.
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Old 8th Nov 2023, 09:02
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Originally Posted by neville_nobody
CASA isn’t going allow foreign registered aircraft with foreign crews fly domestic RPT in Australia. If that happens it will be the beginning of the end of their control of the whole Australian industry.
If the boffins in the Big Haus with the flag on top up the road say do it they will!

However it’s going to be excellent for the Australian pilots flying for foreign operators who want to be based in Australia.
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Old 8th Nov 2023, 17:59
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Originally Posted by Duck Pilot
If the boffins in the Big Haus with the flag on top up the road say do it they will!

However it’s going to be excellent for the Australian pilots flying for foreign operators who want to be based in Australia.
Would be an operators dream, move and base pilots around the world on a contract based on schedule. Unlike JQ,QF and VA that have to pay pilots to sit around on the lows.
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Old 8th Nov 2023, 18:53
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Originally Posted by SHVC
Would be an operators dream, move and base pilots around the world on a contract based on schedule. Unlike JQ,QF and VA that have to pay pilots to sit around on the lows.
Well to be honest QF are already doing similar things with the Finnair aircraft and crews, and JQ uses aircraft from Japan and Singapore although re registered here with Australian crews. Probably a smart move by Bonza.
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Old 9th Nov 2023, 04:44
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Oh yes they are.
Foreign registered aircraft and foreign licenced crews being paid in Canada under the FLAIR agreement.
I would suggest the Qantas Group are watching and not opposing it.....
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Old 10th Nov 2023, 03:01
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Originally Posted by EXEK1996
Oh yes they are.
Foreign registered aircraft and foreign licenced crews being paid in Canada under the FLAIR agreement.
I would suggest the Qantas Group are watching and not opposing it.....
Don't forget to add all the other costs to Flair/Bonza like transport both planes and staff, accommodation, meals and the myriad of other penalties and bonuses that go along with working 10 hours from home and then there is the low Aussie dollar to factor in as well
I'd reckon it's good to keep the birds in the air over the NW and earning money and to test the waters at OOL prior to committing to more MAXs for AB and recruiting local staff on an ongoing basis
I don't really see too much financial gain though for 777 Partners using Canadian staff
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Old 10th Nov 2023, 07:35
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Originally Posted by PoppaJo

Virgin had some thing with Tiger painted 737s flown on a VAI AOC with VA Pilots and Tiger Cabin Crew.
Yes; but this was with Aus registered planes, Aus operating and licenced flight crew, and Aus cabin crew. They were actually Virgin registered 737’s at the time painted in tiger livery flown by Virgin pilots; so not really at all comparable to the Bonza scenario
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Old 10th Nov 2023, 08:13
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Foreign aircraft have a long history of wet lease operations in Australia, eg VH-NOA for Qantas, various Air Canada birds helping Ansett etc etc, from memory even Air Nz gave VA a hand with some wet leases. It’s a bit like the paper bags at supermarkets, what’s old is new again.
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Old 10th Nov 2023, 08:27
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Originally Posted by Deano969
I don't really see too much financial gain though for 777 Partners using Canadian staff
Yes but it’s the whole concept that is the actual issue.

Are these pilots being employed on work visas under Australian industrial law? I don’t know - it’s a genuine question.

I put this to you - if it was not Canadian aircraft and pilots but instead aircraft/ pilots from Eastern Europe who are on significant less when it comes
to terms and conditions - would you be ok with this?

If the aircraft are being operated under Canadian aviation regs - does this give Bonza an unfair advantage when every other domestic operator has to comply with all of the nonsense regulation served up by CASA? How do Canadian flight time limitations compare to Australian ones?

There’s a myriad of issues here. And I guarantee it would not be acceptable to any pilot group in North America if one of their airlines suddenly wet leased Australian aircraft and pilots to fly over there. So why then is it acceptable here?
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Old 10th Nov 2023, 08:53
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Originally Posted by markis10
Foreign aircraft have a long history of wet lease operations in Australia, eg VH-NOA for Qantas, various Air Canada birds helping Ansett etc etc, from memory even Air Nz gave VA a hand with some wet leases. It’s a bit like the paper bags at supermarkets, what’s old is new again.
Incorrect, Air New Zealand never gave VA a hand with wet leases. They had codeshare agreements for ops in New Zealand after PacBlue/Vanz stopped domestic ops in New Zealand.
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Old 10th Nov 2023, 18:58
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If the aircraft are being operated under Canadian aviation regs - does this give Bonza an unfair advantage when every other domestic operator has to comply with all of the nonsense regulation served up by CASA? How do Canadian flight time limitations compare to Australian ones?
It opens Australia up to ‘Flag of Convenience’ operations which will be interesting to say the least. It will be good news for travellers as air fares will plummet. It will probably bankrupt any VH operation as the regulatory burden would be to much. It will also end CASA’s iron grip on the industry. I would suggest that all the Australian airlines and CASA will lobby the government to never let this situation arise. Mind you Australian politicians have form with selling out their own citizens so who knows what insanity they will allow next.
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Old 10th Nov 2023, 19:55
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There’s a myriad of issues here. And I guarantee it would not be acceptable to any pilot group in North America if one of their airlines suddenly wet leased Australian aircraft and pilots to fly over there. So why then is it acceptable here?
It's been happening between Europe and Canada for many years e.g TUI and Sunwings, Transavia and Sunwings
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Old 10th Nov 2023, 21:05
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
It's been happening between Europe and Canada for many years e.g TUI and Sunwings, Transavia and Sunwings
What do you mean by "it's been happening"? Do you mean that you buy a domestic RPT ticket with Sunwings only to arrive at the aircraft to find it is a Transavia aeroplane, with 100% foreign crews not paying Canadian Tax, regulated by the European Authority??
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Old 10th Nov 2023, 21:12
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Current Canadian Flight Time Regulations.
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Old 10th Nov 2023, 21:22
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Neville Nobody it kind of works like a full wet lease…aircraft and crew. And I can confirm it’s been happening for decades in Canada and Europe.
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Old 10th Nov 2023, 22:05
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It has been permitted for considerable time here, it’s just nobody has really bothered to use the option. I recall it was taken up in the 80s and 90s but nothing much since.

Is a UK A321 doing domestic hops here at the moment also for a tour company.

The costs involved to bring a foreign set of crews down under would be quite considerable. 70/80 crew being based here for 6 months won’t come cheap. And that’s just one part of the wet lease bill. That’s a whole lot of cost to be running half empty flights to Isa and back for the summer.
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Old 10th Nov 2023, 23:22
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Originally Posted by PoppaJo
Isn’t a UK A321 doing domestic hops here at the moment also for a tour company.
If it’s the black one I’ve seen recently take off straight into one of the worst storms seen at Sydney for a while, I’m surprised they haven’t ended up on the side of a hill somewhere.

There were about 20 aircraft sitting at the various holding points waiting for it to pass and these guys just blasted off… straight into it
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Old 10th Nov 2023, 23:52
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Originally Posted by A320 Flyer
If it’s the black one I’ve seen recently take off straight into one of the worst storms seen at Sydney for a while, I’m surprised they haven’t ended up on the side of a hill somewhere.

There were about 20 aircraft sitting at the various holding points waiting for it to pass and these guys just blasted off… straight into it
That’s the one. Someone said something about that yesterday, went of 16L, right off into the thick of it. Bit of entertainment for the dozen odd down at Tango 6.
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Old 16th Nov 2023, 02:24
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OOL flights kicked off yesterday, interestingly with a repositioned Bonza bird rather than flair.
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Old 16th Nov 2023, 06:23
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The Canadian flight time regulations appear to be less restrictive than CASA, which would normally favour the operator, not the pilot (unless pilot overtime is lucrative...).
However often a requirement in any FAOC arrangement is that the operator must apply whichever country's regulation is the more restrictive.
As for CAsA turning a 'blind eye' to fully crewed wet lease ops, the great precedent was set back in 1989. It's common enough in many countries where pilot unions or public servants are weak.
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