ATC, RFF, WTF?
What do the various majors procedures say about landing or departing at various AD that have a degraded or zero RFF where there normally should be one? And their insurers?
I am wondering if QF will really operate with zero RFF out of SY)ML etc, or whether it is just media talk?
I am wondering if QF will really operate with zero RFF out of SY)ML etc, or whether it is just media talk?
https://www.smh.com.au/national/airp...29-p5c25r.html
Australia’s major airlines are set to continue flying when airport firefighters walk off the job for four hours next Friday morning as part of strike action their union claimed would significantly disrupt travel schedules.
United Firefighters Union (UFU) aviation branch secretary Wes Garrett said the strike from 6am to 10am on December 9 was a last resort as the union pushed for better pay and more staff to address a shortage it claims is compromising safety.
“We understand that this will be extremely disruptive for Australia’s air travellers and aviation firefighters sincerely apologise for the inconvenience,” Garrett said.
“But for over a year now, the safety of air travellers has been consistently put at risk each time they board an aircraft because we don’t have enough aviation firefighters to protect them if their plane crashes or catches fire, and that’s not acceptable.”
Firefighters will strike at all 27 airports across Australia where they are stationed, including all capital city gateways.
But Australia’s three major domestic airlines appear set to continue flying during the strike.
A Virgin Australia spokesman said it would work with the government’s aviation manager, Airservices Australia, and other agencies to ensure it could operate safely and with minimal disruption during the planned strike action.
Qantas declined to comment, but the airline and its budget arm Jetstar have not rescheduled any services during the four-hour strike and are still selling tickets on those flights.
The Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) mandates that Airservices provides a set level of emergency services at major airports, including crew response times and having a certain number trucks available to respond to runway incidentsWhen asked on Tuesday, CASA could not say whether airlines could safely or legally operate during the strike.“We are currently working with all relevant parties to understand the impacts of this announcement,” a CASA spokesman said.Airport firefighters have been locked in wage negotiations with Airservices Australia for the past 12 months, and this month obtained Fair Work Commission approval to take strike action until January 1.About 100 firefighters have left the industry through a voluntary retirement scheme since October 2021, which Garrett said has resulted in more than 600 flights every month operating with insufficient fire fighting protection.
A recent internal Airservices report released by the union shows “category reductions” – when a flight lands without the required emergency service provisions – have “increased significantly” since the redundancy round began.
Until late 2021, about one in every 1000 flights operated without the appropriate level of emergency crews on hand. By July this year, that increased to 130 in every 1000 flights, the report says.
But Airservices denied there was an airport firefighter shortage and said the union’s claims about safety were misleading and “designed to justify unnecessary industrial action to support an excessive wage claim”.
“The [United Firefighters Union] should abandon its strike threat and return to the bargaining table,” an Airservices spokesperson said.
“If they are so concerned about safety ... why are they increasing the safety risk by taking strike action and withdrawing (Aviation Rescue and Firefighters) altogether at Christmas time?”
The UFU is pushing for a wage increases of 15 per cent over the next four years, which follows a 1 per cent increase in 2020 and 0 per cent last year.
Australian Airports Association chief executive James Goodwin said it was “disappointing that industrial action could see disruption to travellers at a time when the sector is rebuilding confidence”.
Although Airservices is allowed to vary aircraft category in accordance with approved procedures that manage temporary changes to category, its recent internal audit found increasing instances of non-compliance with CASA’s reporting framework and “discrepancies between regulations and Airservices processes”.
United Firefighters Union (UFU) aviation branch secretary Wes Garrett said the strike from 6am to 10am on December 9 was a last resort as the union pushed for better pay and more staff to address a shortage it claims is compromising safety.
“We understand that this will be extremely disruptive for Australia’s air travellers and aviation firefighters sincerely apologise for the inconvenience,” Garrett said.
“But for over a year now, the safety of air travellers has been consistently put at risk each time they board an aircraft because we don’t have enough aviation firefighters to protect them if their plane crashes or catches fire, and that’s not acceptable.”
Firefighters will strike at all 27 airports across Australia where they are stationed, including all capital city gateways.
But Australia’s three major domestic airlines appear set to continue flying during the strike.
A Virgin Australia spokesman said it would work with the government’s aviation manager, Airservices Australia, and other agencies to ensure it could operate safely and with minimal disruption during the planned strike action.
Qantas declined to comment, but the airline and its budget arm Jetstar have not rescheduled any services during the four-hour strike and are still selling tickets on those flights.
The Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) mandates that Airservices provides a set level of emergency services at major airports, including crew response times and having a certain number trucks available to respond to runway incidentsWhen asked on Tuesday, CASA could not say whether airlines could safely or legally operate during the strike.“We are currently working with all relevant parties to understand the impacts of this announcement,” a CASA spokesman said.Airport firefighters have been locked in wage negotiations with Airservices Australia for the past 12 months, and this month obtained Fair Work Commission approval to take strike action until January 1.About 100 firefighters have left the industry through a voluntary retirement scheme since October 2021, which Garrett said has resulted in more than 600 flights every month operating with insufficient fire fighting protection.
A recent internal Airservices report released by the union shows “category reductions” – when a flight lands without the required emergency service provisions – have “increased significantly” since the redundancy round began.
Until late 2021, about one in every 1000 flights operated without the appropriate level of emergency crews on hand. By July this year, that increased to 130 in every 1000 flights, the report says.
But Airservices denied there was an airport firefighter shortage and said the union’s claims about safety were misleading and “designed to justify unnecessary industrial action to support an excessive wage claim”.
“The [United Firefighters Union] should abandon its strike threat and return to the bargaining table,” an Airservices spokesperson said.
“If they are so concerned about safety ... why are they increasing the safety risk by taking strike action and withdrawing (Aviation Rescue and Firefighters) altogether at Christmas time?”
The UFU is pushing for a wage increases of 15 per cent over the next four years, which follows a 1 per cent increase in 2020 and 0 per cent last year.
Australian Airports Association chief executive James Goodwin said it was “disappointing that industrial action could see disruption to travellers at a time when the sector is rebuilding confidence”.
Although Airservices is allowed to vary aircraft category in accordance with approved procedures that manage temporary changes to category, its recent internal audit found increasing instances of non-compliance with CASA’s reporting framework and “discrepancies between regulations and Airservices processes”.
Good on them. Time to stand up. Pilots and passengers won’t be considering them just a ‘nice to have’ the day something happens.
If it is ops normal on strike morning two things become apparent… UFU are screwed and we really do not need ATC to broadcast the RFF status changes.
Last edited by Icarus2001; 30th Nov 2022 at 04:01. Reason: To add image.
I’ll bet that no one is going to stop and the RFF chaps are going to discover they are just a ‘nice to have’ rather than essential to aviation.
Going without ARFF is OK right? Until you need them of course, then there'll be hell to pay. Then there's the heart attacks they've attended over the years, and the money they raise for charities, apart from that they do **** all right?
What about when something happens to a 100 seat jet operating at an airport without fire fighting? Are you okay with that?
If it is ops normal on strike morning two things become apparent… UFU are screwed and we really do not need ATC to broadcast the RFF status changes.
If it is ops normal on strike morning two things become apparent… UFU are screwed and we really do not need ATC to broadcast the RFF status changes.
no, I’m not ok with that. I’m not ok with anything happening to anyone. Hence why I said I support them, bloody well pay them what their worth and give them the staff they need.
fark me, the moment someone talks about pilot pay you’re all about it…but the firies aren’t worth it?
We shouldn’t fly if there is no ARFF service next week. Another dream’t up cost cutting exercise by the previous government. If, god forbid, the worst happens then I know our Fire Fighters will be there pronto. I fully support twisting ASA on this. If they want to save some money then design better SIDS and STARS ffs. You could save millions per year which would benefit all operators.
I bet if ASA downsize the fire fighting workforce it won’t be passed onto the airlines for a incurring a reduced capability yet give some bean counter with no skin in the game a bonus.
I bet if ASA downsize the fire fighting workforce it won’t be passed onto the airlines for a incurring a reduced capability yet give some bean counter with no skin in the game a bonus.
We shouldn’t fly if there is no ARFF service next week. Another dream’t up cost cutting exercise by the previous government. If, god forbid, the worst happens then I know our Fire Fighters will be there pronto. I fully support twisting ASA on this. If they want to save some money then design better SIDS and STARS ffs. You could save millions per year which would benefit all operators.
I bet if ASA downsize the fire fighting workforce it won’t be passed onto the airlines for a incurring a reduced capability yet give some bean counter with no skin in the game a bonus.
I bet if ASA downsize the fire fighting workforce it won’t be passed onto the airlines for a incurring a reduced capability yet give some bean counter with no skin in the game a bonus.
the UFU are trying to exploit the whole “firefighter” trusted people card and they don’t have enough staff, well if they think that having the extra staff spread over the 27 stations now makes them the super human service they think they are they are gravely mistaking. Having that 1 extra bod on the crew will make no operational difference.
Last edited by red_dirt; 30th Nov 2022 at 08:43.
Now when some of our aviation brethren (who put their lives on the line for us, as the poor souls in Dubai and Lima recently demonstrate) stand up to ensure safe staffing levels we cry foul because our Friday morning plans are slightly disrupted.
They’re only asking for an average 3.5% pay rise over the EBA, we’ll below inflation.
and they don’t have enough staff, well if they think that having the extra staff spread over the 27 stations now makes them the super human service they think they are they are gravely mistaking. Having that 1 extra bod on the crew will make no operational difference.
However, an Airservices Australia risk assurance review dated September 9 and circulated by the union shows national available staffing levels were well below the required staffing levels due to “increases in long-term leave, sick leave and mental health impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic”.
Secondly who are you to tell firefighters they don’t need extra crew? How would you like it if they said “I don’t think you need 4 pilots for ULH, 3, or even 2 will suffice”.
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Fark me, the moment someone talks about pilot pay you’re all about it…but the firies aren’t worth it?
The standard of comprehension on here is atrocious.
I can’t understand for the life of me why any of you would say anything negative about their PIA. Governments and corporations have bullied employees for too long, and there’s a visible change happening. We should be embracing it.
not paying the fees? So if you take PIA one day you think your employer should stop paying you?
If you want to see what it’s about, get in contact and go and spend a day with them. I have. The shifts, the training, the drills, and the risks. Dont forget they respond to Medicals as well. Just like pilots, they have skills and training they hope they don’t need, but are still required to demonstrate proficiency. This is not a job for some mug off the street.
Comprehension? this thread should be nothing but support. Unbelievable. Same for the cabin crew at Q that have voted for PIA. Yeah sure, their action might cost me some hours. Big deal. If they can get what they want it’s just another chink in the armour that has surrounded ‘bargaining’. Yep, we’re on the outside of that armour as far as places like airservices, Q and V are concerned.
not paying the fees? So if you take PIA one day you think your employer should stop paying you?
If you want to see what it’s about, get in contact and go and spend a day with them. I have. The shifts, the training, the drills, and the risks. Dont forget they respond to Medicals as well. Just like pilots, they have skills and training they hope they don’t need, but are still required to demonstrate proficiency. This is not a job for some mug off the street.
Comprehension? this thread should be nothing but support. Unbelievable. Same for the cabin crew at Q that have voted for PIA. Yeah sure, their action might cost me some hours. Big deal. If they can get what they want it’s just another chink in the armour that has surrounded ‘bargaining’. Yep, we’re on the outside of that armour as far as places like airservices, Q and V are concerned.
Clearly it is an arse covering exercise. If you crash, everyone burns to death due to no RFF coverage and the Airport can say it is all your fault as they ‘informed you their was no RFF coverage’ your honour!
Not the brightest bulb on the tree are you?
Not talking about the employees being docked - talking about NavCharges not being paid for RFF)ATC that is nor provided by Airservices. Hit them in the hip pocket to make them employ enough people to provide the service they are supposed to, in their monopoly environment.
Not talking about the employees being docked - talking about NavCharges not being paid for RFF)ATC that is nor provided by Airservices. Hit them in the hip pocket to make them employ enough people to provide the service they are supposed to, in their monopoly environment.
pilot (service provider) takes PIA. Doesn’t get paid. Cries like a baby about employer and how unfair it is.
if it could be done and worked as you said, then sure. Otherwise….probably ‘not so bright’
From Neville's SMH article earlier-
CASA could not say whether airlines could safely or legally operate during the strike.“We are currently working with all relevant parties to understand the impacts of this announcement,” a CASA spokesman said.
So the regulator doesn't know the rules they wrote?
CASA could not say whether airlines could safely or legally operate during the strike.“We are currently working with all relevant parties to understand the impacts of this announcement,” a CASA spokesman said.
So the regulator doesn't know the rules they wrote?
I wish the ARFF all the best in their efforts to hold ASA to account on staffing levels. ATC have been trying to do the same thing since around 2006, but to little avail.
The RWNJ media and the Joyce sycho-fans will frame this through their own self interested greedy perverted lens. But anyone in Aviation who has been on the prickly end of the multiple outsourced subsidiary A scale through Z scale pineapple will know the truth of the matter
The RWNJ media and the Joyce sycho-fans will frame this through their own self interested greedy perverted lens. But anyone in Aviation who has been on the prickly end of the multiple outsourced subsidiary A scale through Z scale pineapple will know the truth of the matter
we are in furious agreement.